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PostSubject: Shadows Elves again   Sat 13 Aug 2011 - 10:33

Below is a revision of the Shadow elves I worked out more than a year back, but have never play-tested (but hope to soonish). I posted them on Warseer at the time, and it does reflect some suggestions from the Warseeri. I am quite interested in what people here on Tom’s think. I would like a more balanced Shadow Elf band, since I enjoy them (as does my wife) but always feel a bit guilty for running them in Mordheim – they were made for the Lustria setting, which had slightly more powerful warbands than the Mordheim bands – and the Shadow Elves were probably the most powerful of those bands (their Dark Elf rivals are not as strong). I have seen various fan-made revisions on the ‘net, but they focus on nerfing the SE stats as a way to balance them. I don’t like that approach, since while it might balance them, it does so by making them not-elves. So this revision started with the premise that they can be balanced by (1) reducing the starting heroes from five to four (following the dwarf model there) and (2) making it more of a challenge for them to expand their numbers.

I have not listed any stats below, since I am not changing them.

Suggestions?

-Michael


Shadow Warrior Warband Revision


Overview: The intent is to balance Shadow Warrior warbands with the standard Mordheim-setting warbands, in a way that keeps them consistent with their background and with elves in the Warhammer world setting. Consequently, limitations on the Shadow Warriors in this version are based on their scarcity in and around Mordheim, rather than making them weaker than standard Warhammer elves.


Special Rules:

Hate Dark Elves: All warriors in a Shadow Warrior Warband (excluding any hired swords) have an unyielding hatred for Dark Elves.

Excellent Sight: Elves have eyesight unmatched by mere humans. Shadow Warriors spot Hidden enemies from two times as far away as other warriors (i.e. twice their Initiative value in inches.

Seeker: Shadow warriors are the greatest scouts of Ulthuan. Each hero may modify his or her exploration die roll by -1/+1.

Distaste for Poison: The use of poisons and various drugs is a Dark Elf specialty. As such, it is frowned upon by Shadow Warriors, even more so than by other High Elves. Warriors in a Shadow Warrior warband may not use poisons of any type.

Unforgiving: In addition to their hatred of their corrupt kin, the folk of Nagarythe have a long history of struggle against the forces of Chaos. In multiplayer games, a Shadow Warrior warband may never forge an alliance with any warband of a Chaotic nature (Possessed, Skaven, Beastmen, Dark Elves, etc.).

Scarce: Recruiting new warriors is not easy for the Shadow Warriors, as there are few elves in the old world, and even fewer near Mordheim. Usually a new recruit must come from far-off Ulthuan. To find a new member, the warband’s captain must use his or her rare search roll, exactly as if the captain was looking for a rare item. On a roll of 10 or higher, the warband is able to recruit another Shadow elf. The captain may add +1 to this roll if the Shadow Elves won the previous scenario. The Streetwise skill also modifies this roll, although it only adds +1 to the roll, rather than the +2 benefit the captain would receive if looking for a rare item. If attempting to recruit a henchman into an existing henchman group, the warband must still make the roll to see if it has found someone with enough experience to join the group (see “New Recruits and Existing Henchman Groups”, p. 144).

Untrusting: A Shadow Warrior warband can hire an Elf Ranger or an Elf Mage as normal; other Hired Swords may be hired for a single scenario, but may not be kept after that scenario. A Shadow Warrior warband may not hire any Hired Sword of a Chaotic or Evil bent (so no Skaven, Possessed, Beastmen, Dark Elves, Undead, etc.).

Not Trusted: Most humans do not trust elves, and Shadow Warriors have little knowledge of how to haggle or how much imperial money is worth. When they sell wyrdstone, a Shadow Elf warband counts as one size category higher than normal. Thus a warband consisting of 12 shadow warriors would sell wyrdstone shards as if there were 13-15 models in the warband.

Slender Build: Shadow Warriors, like all of their kin, are swift and dexterous, but less hardy than many other races. When rolling improvements for Shadow Warriors, the following modifications are made to the improvement tables:

Hero table:
On a roll of 6: 1-2 = +1 Strength, 3-6 = +1 attack
On a roll of 9: 1-4 = +1 wound, 5-6 = +1 toughness

Henchman table:
5-7 (rather than 6-7) = +1 WS or +1 BS



Choice of Warriors:
A Shadow Warrior Warband must include a minimum of 3 models. You have 500 Gold Crowns which you can use to recruit your initial warband. Maximum number of warriors in the warband is 12.

Heroes:
Shadow Master: Each Shadow Warrior Warband must have one Shadow Master: no more, no less!

Shadow Walkers: your warband may include up to 2 Shadow Walkers.

Shadow Weaver: Your warband may include one Shadow Weaver.

Henchmen:
Shadow Warriors: Any number of models may be Shadow Warriors.

Shadow Novices: Any number of models may be Shadow Warriors.



Starting Experience:
Shadow Masters start with 20 experience points.
Shadow Walkers start with 12 experience points.
Shadow Weavers start with 12 experience points.
All henchmen start with 0 experience.


Shadow Warriors Skill tables
Combat Shooting Academic Strength Speed Special
Shadow Master X X X X X
Shadow Walker X X X X
Shadow Weaver X X X X


Shadow Warrior Equipment Lists:

Hand-to-hand combat weapons:
Dagger – First free/2 gc
Sword – 10 gc
Double-handed weapon – 15 gc
Elven Greatsword – 30 gc
Spear – 10 gc
Ithilmar weapon* - 2 x price

Missile Weapons:
Elf short bow – 15 gc
Elf bow – 35 gc

Armor:
Helmet – 10 gc
Light armor – 20 gc
Shield – 5 gc
Ithilmar armor* – 60 gc

Miscellaneous:
Standard of Nagarythe* - 75 gc
War horn of Nagarythe* - 25 gc
Elven Cloak* - 75 gc
Elven Wine* - 50 gc
Elven Runestones* - 50 gc

*Heroes only. These special prices represent the lower rarity of these items in Ulthuan; when attempting to purchase these items in Mordheim (or Lustria), Shadow Warriors pay the same prices as other warbands, and must roll to find them as normal. No roll is necessary to find these items when first starting a Shadow Warrior Warband.

New Equipment:
Elven Greatsword (30 gc): Lighter and better balanced than standard double-handed weapons, an Elven Greatsword allows Shadow Warriors to deliver deadly blows to their enemies. Elven Greatswords require two hands to use, but do not suffer from the “Strike Last” rule; instead, the warrior wielding the Elven Greatsword loses two points of Initiative for purposes of determining when the model strikes in hand-to-hand combat. Strength: as user +2.

Elven Shortbow (15 gc). These short, powerful bows are as deadly as Elven bows at close range. Maximum Range: 24 Strength: 3 Special Rules: -1 to armor saves.



Heroes:

1 Shadow Master (80 Gold Crowns to hire)


0-2 Shadow Walkers (50 Gold Crowns to hire)


0-1 Shadow Weaver (45 Gold Crowns to hire)



Henchmen:

Shadow Warriors (45 Gold Crowns to hire)

Shadow Warrior Novices (25 Gold Crowns to hire)



Shadow Warrior Special Skills:

Infiltration

See in Shadows

Hide in Shadows

Master of Runes

Backstabber: The Shadow Warrior specializes in attacking his targets when their back is turned. The elf may charge an opponent he cannot see (he knows you're there!) as long as the target model is within his charge reach. If he does this, he surprises his opponent and receives a +1 to hit him with all attacks and any rolls on the Serious Injuries chart are at +1. This bonus lasts for the first round of combat only, as his opponent will swiftly recover his wits if he survives the initial assault.


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PostSubject: Re: Shadows Elves again   Sat 13 Aug 2011 - 10:36

Sorry - not sure how to fix the formatting on the table that shows skills available to the heroes.

The captain (Shadow Master) can take any except Strength skills.

The Shadow Walkers cannot take Strength or Academic skills

The Shadow Weaver cannot take Strength or Shooting skills.
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PostSubject: Re: Shadows Elves again   Sun 14 Aug 2011 - 4:01

Good to see you got rid of the skill that lets you shoot and stay hidden - that was one that pushed them over line of 'excessively deadly' Smile. I like the backstabber skill, shadow related without being over-powered. One minor suggestion, which is probably more a matter of taste than design is instead of the range being the whole charge range make it a range in Initiative or Initiative*2. Charge range means a range of 15" if they have sprint (more with leap). I would also leave it so they still have to take an I test to see if they can charge. Chances are they will pass because they will be only failing on 6's, but to the opponent it feels less hopeless if they have to test each time and sometimes fail rather than swarm his dudes from 15" away when he cannot see you to either shoot or charge or hide to avoid any of your attacks.

In my circle we made a blanket 'elves racial max T is 3' rule similar to your weighting the level table and that seemed to help all elf warbands be a bit more balanced, and, more importantly I think, encourage a more elf-like playstyle i.e. maneouvering to hit at exactly the right time and place and then falling back when required and less wade-in-and-kill-them-all, which T4 tends to be a bit more forgiving towards.

Over all it looks very good. Certainly I wouldn't mind playing against it Smile.
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PostSubject: Re: Shadows Elves again   Sun 14 Aug 2011 - 7:03

Quote :
Seeker: Shadow warriors are the greatest scouts of Ulthuan. Each hero may modify his or her exploration die roll by -1/+1.

Potentially 6 mods - broken!

excellent sight is also lame, it ruins hiding, the only counter to shooters

make excellent eyesight something else - like +4 change to negate cover - or +2 I for charging enemies around corners

dont make them HATE all DE. that'll be imbalanced when playing against DE warbands.
make them Immune to Psych. Or say that they wont rount until they've lost 40% of their numbers. That'll make it a bloody battle and represent their bitterness. (Jus make sure DE have the same rule)

and maybe give shadow warriors a ban on using lanterns

ALSO, some ELVEN SPECIAL SKILLS
Fey (as Elven Ranger HS)
Wyrdstone Hunter (as Academic skill)
Frail but Fey: an Elf that takes this skill will magically heal 1 campaign injury. This skill may be taken multiple times.
Hide in Shadows: I think you should take Asp's idea of making it so that Cover is doubled (ie enemies suffer -2 to hit when warrior is in cover BUT Trick shoot negates ALL cover bonuses)


Last edited by shotguncoffee on Sun 14 Aug 2011 - 7:43; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Shadows Elves again   Sun 14 Aug 2011 - 7:35

I think the warband needs diversification. A bunch of snipers ain't gonna be fun. Even if they ARE somehow balanced.

also, take away polearms from them for heavens sake. if witch hunters cant have polearms, nor can they. + spears on snipers = cheesey

give them a handbow (like DE Corsairs) to fill a pistol role

Hand Bow 20gc , rare 9
Range 10"
Strength 4
Brace: Two Hand Bows count as 1 missile weapon
Pistol: A model armed with two Hand Bows can fire twice if he has the Pistolier skill

HEROES

1 Shadow Captain 70gc
Combat, Shooting, Academic, Speed
20 xp
5 5 4 3 3 1 5 1 8
Leader

EQUIPMENT
Dagger, Club, Axe, Sword, Great Weapon, Elven Greatsword
Short Bow, Bow, Long Bow, Elf Bow, Hand Bow
Light Armour, Heavy Armour, Shield, Helmet

0-2 Shadow Scouts 45gc
Combat, Shooting, Speed
12 xp
5 4 4 3 3 1 5 1 8
Infiltration

EQUIPMENT
Dagger, Club, Axe, Sword
Short Bow, Bow, Long Bow, Elf Bow, Hand Bow
Light Armour, Heavy Armour, Shield, Helmet


0-2 Shadow Swordmasters 45gc
Combat, Strength, Speed
12 xp
5 5 4 3 3 1 5 1 8

EQUIPMENT
Dagger, Club, Axe, Sword, Great Weapon, Elven Greatsword, Halberd
Hand Bow
Light Armour, Heavy Armour, Shield, Helmet

HENCHMEN

0-5 Shadow Warriors 40gc
5 4 4 3 3 1 5 1 8
Start with 5 xp

EQUIPMENT
Dagger, Club, Axe, Sword, Great Weapon, Elven Greatsword
Short Bow, Bow, Long Bow, Elf Bow, Hand Bow
Light Armour, Heavy Armour, Shield, Helmet

0-3 White Lions 35gc
6 4 0 4 3 1 4 1 5
Pounce: +1 A the turn they charge
Fey: Hostile spells will not affect on 4+
Animals

Halfling Aides 15gc
4 3 3 2 2 1 4 1 8
Special Rule: Jump Up

EQUIPMENT
Dagger, Club, Axe, Sword
Short Bow
Light Armour, Shield, Helmet
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PostSubject: Re: Shadows Elves again   Sun 14 Aug 2011 - 9:38

Lord O: "I like the backstabber skill, shadow related without being over-powered. One minor suggestion, which is probably more a matter of taste than design is instead of the range being the whole charge range make it a range in Initiative or Initiative*2. Charge range means a range of 15" if they have sprint (more with leap). I would also leave it so they still have to take an I test to see if they can charge. "

How about they make an initiative test, and then may charge a model within 2 x of their initiative in inches? Or, they may automatically charge within their initiative range, but must take the initiative test to charge the additional distance, up to 2 x their range. I think I like the less complicated first option better.


Shotfuncoffee: Potentially 6 [search] mods - broken!

You may well be right. Two modifications leap to mind - first, have the description specify the Shadow Master, Walkers, and Weaver have the skills, which would mean promoted warrior heroes would not. Alternatively, it could become a SE skill, which would mean potentially all six could still have it, but only if all six burn a skill slot (and the promoted warriors would have had to have taken the SE skill list as one of their two).

"excellent sight is also lame, it ruins hiding, the only counter to shooters"

But all elves in the game system have it, including the Elven Ranger hired sword. It is useful, but I have never found it "ruins" hiding (it certainly still protects hiders from long-range elf shooting, which can be pretty effective).

"dont make them HATE all DE. that'll be imbalanced when playing against DE warbands."

No, because Dark Elves hate shadow elves right back.

"I think the warband needs diversification. A bunch of snipers ain't gonna be fun. Even if they ARE somehow balanced."

Actually, I have always quite enjoyed playing them... See my comments on the recent Sisters of Sigmar thread - some warbands are very diversified (human mercs), while others are more specialized. Players have plenty of options that fit their play styles, and can avoid ones they see as boring.


"also, take away polearms from them for heavens sake. if witch hunters cant have polearms, nor can they. + spears on snipers = cheesey"

I can''t think of any logical reason not to give them spears. To be honest, I don't think I ever equipped my SEs with spears much when I ran them from the original GW list. Maybe a few. Generally I prefer the two attacks with various hand weapons to one attack with a spear. I'll think about this one...

ix-nay on the hand crossbows... interesting idea, but I would rather not let the SEs use them (unless of course it is a hero who takes Weapons Expert).

Thanks for the suggestions, both of you.
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PostSubject: Re: Shadows Elves again   Sun 14 Aug 2011 - 16:21

i like most of the list. Only the recruting rule seems a little bit broken.

If you want to recruit, you have to stay your leader out of every fight, because else you will not be able to recruit. And even if he gets a rarity roll you need a 10...
until he gets enough items or skills for recruiting, the warband will be dimished.
If they have bad luck and a hero dies, the will have a even bigger problem, because they can't rehire them easily. An early loss of an hero means for them to give up. They have only 3 heroes and only a 1/6 chancce of rehiring another one. If the captain dies and a Walker take over, they lose the possibility for streetwise...
Or you captain goes OOA and have to miss some games and don't get a rarity roll...


Does the elven weapons have rarity rolls?
If they do, the warband will have a great problem, of not all of them take streetwise, because they need it for basic the elven sword, both types of bows and even recruits...


an Idea:
give the recruits an journey roll:
2W6
2-4 will be right there for the next battle
5-6 need 1 game to arrive
7-8 need 2 games to arrive
9-10 need 3 games to arrive
11-12 no recruits availible at the moment, try again next game

Another one:
make the recruit roll not dependend on the leader, let every hero search for recruits.
It will make it still hard to expand, but you have at least a better chance.
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PostSubject: Re: Shadows Elves again   Sun 14 Aug 2011 - 18:11

Thanks, Saranor. I am trying to use the four hero start and the slow recruiting to balance how good the elves are individually, but I may have overdone it.

I may have subconsciously also been thinking about a couple of our house rules (any warband can replace a dead captain, as per the official rules for the vampire captain, and if you are searching for a rare item that is on your warband's starting list, you receive a +1 on your roll).

The "journey" idea is an interesting one. Keeping the captain as the only one who can search, perhaps on a roll of 10 the captain successfully recruits a new member to the band, who can join immediately. On a roll of 9, the captain has found a potential recruit who is not local; the warband has to pay for the recruit immediately (but not his equipment until he arrives?), and then rolls (2d6) on a journey table:

2 - 3 The recruit falls victims to the hazards of the journey, and never arrives
4 - 6 The recruit arrives after the next two games
7-10 The recruit arrives after the next game
11+ The recruit arrives after the next game, and brings a friend (a shadow warrior) with him, who can also be hired for the standard cost.

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PostSubject: Re: Shadows Elves again   Mon 15 Aug 2011 - 0:15

The Problem is, the warband has only 4 heros and if one of them is occupied with searching for recruits, you have only 3 rarity rolls left.

If your Captain failed, you have not much to spend your gold beside rare items with just 3 rolls and hired swords...
This way the Shadow warriors may become new Marienburger, because they have only hired swords to make use of their gold...

Allow them to recruit at least heros without rarity roll.
Or make it dependend on the warband size. More people make stealthy operations more difficult. The rarity roll is the actual warband size.

how do you handle 3-3-3 on the exploration table?
Do elven warbands get new members(a shadow warrior)? This way the elves would try to use the exploration table to increase their number and would go for tarot-carts and wyrdstonependulum and the elven ranger...
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PostSubject: Re: Shadows Elves again   Mon 15 Aug 2011 - 1:36

mweaver wrote:
Lord O: "I like the backstabber skill, shadow related without being over-powered. One minor suggestion, which is probably more a matter of taste than design is instead of the range being the whole charge range make it a range in Initiative or Initiative*2. Charge range means a range of 15" if they have sprint (more with leap). I would also leave it so they still have to take an I test to see if they can charge. "

How about they make an initiative test, and then may charge a model within 2 x of their initiative in inches? Or, they may automatically charge within their initiative range, but must take the initiative test to charge the additional distance, up to 2 x their range. I think I like the less complicated first option better.
Yup, I like the simpler first option also.

mweaver wrote:
Shotfuncoffee: Potentially 6 [search] mods - broken!

You may well be right. Two modifications leap to mind - first, have the description specify the Shadow Master, Walkers, and Weaver have the skills, which would mean promoted warrior heroes would not. Alternatively, it could become a SE skill, which would mean potentially all six could still have it, but only if all six burn a skill slot (and the promoted warriors would have had to have taken the SE skill list as one of their two).
Given that *everyone* gets this from Tarot cards by end-of-early–campaign/mid–campaign, I am pretty sure he was being sarcastic Smile. Leave it how it is. Because they start with fewer heroes all the skill really does is keep them on par with everyone elses rolls on the exploration table while the lack of heroes means they will still be rolling fewer treasures.

mweaver wrote:
"excellent sight is also lame, it ruins hiding, the only counter to shooters"

But all elves in the game system have it, including the Elven Ranger hired sword. It is useful, but I have never found it "ruins" hiding (it certainly still protects hiders from long-range elf shooting, which can be pretty effective).
If they are only T3 (which they probably will be because of the weighting) then it only needs a few to get in range to hurt them bad. What we found in our circle is that T3 the elves practically needed this to help them out with the T3ness, but it *did* help them out by thinning people out before they get there. With skill and luck you can still get to them and will skill and luck they can stop you. It leads to lots of interesting jockeying and maneuvering so we left it like that. Besides, as mweaver says, it is a background thing and I think this is one of those times where it is more fun to balance the rules to the background rather than the background to the rules.

mweaver wrote:
"dont make them HATE all DE. that'll be imbalanced when playing against DE warbands."
No, because Dark Elves hate shadow elves right back.
They do indeed. It is a background thing and a point is made of the Naggarythe elves being the only elves that hate the dark elves. The Sacntimon... *cough*, I mean, the *high* elves pity their grey cousins for hating their darker brethren or something.

mweaver wrote:
"I think the warband needs diversification. A bunch of snipers ain't gonna be fun. Even if they ARE somehow balanced."
Actually, I have always quite enjoyed playing them... See my comments on the recent Sisters of Sigmar thread - some warbands are very diversified (human mercs), while others are more specialized. Players have plenty of options that fit their play styles, and can avoid ones they see as boring.
My GF plays the elves I gave her and others are perfectly happy playing similarly limited warbands (including the elves themselves). For example, beastmen are limited to only melee and while *I* find them tediously limited they are still played by many. It is not just about whether someone likes the versatility of the warband it is how much of a mindfit there is between the warband and the player.

mweaver wrote:
"also, take away polearms from them for heavens sake. if witch hunters cant have polearms, nor can they. + spears on snipers = cheesey"

I can''t think of any logical reason not to give them spears. To be honest, I don't think I ever equipped my SEs with spears much when I ran them from the original GW list. Maybe a few. Generally I prefer the two attacks with various hand weapons to one attack with a spear. I'll think about this one...

You can't think of a logical reason because there isn't one. Literally Smile. Besides, polearms (including spears and halberds) have a fighting style of 'stay at a distance while I stab you and slash you' that, to my mind at least, is quintessentially elfy. It has that strength/vulnerabillity pairing that the elves seem so very fond of.

shotguncoffee wrote:
ALSO, some ELVEN SPECIAL SKILLS
Fey (as Elven Ranger HS)
Wyrdstone Hunter (as Academic skill)
Frail but Fey: an Elf that takes this skill will magically heal 1 campaign injury. This skill may be taken multiple times.
Hide in Shadows: I think you should take Asp's idea of making it so that Cover is doubled (ie enemies suffer -2 to hit when warrior is in cover BUT Trick shoot negates ALL cover bonuses)
These are all good ideas. Fey helps with the T3 thing helping them be resilient later without resorting to T4 or Resilience.
I quite like the different take on Hide in Shadows also. The other two are pretty self-explanatory why they are cool Smile.

I *really* like the journey idea, but I think I would simplify it to "Pay for the recruit and any gear you want them to arrive with up front. This is at the starting price of the warband and may include rare items on your list without rolling for them. The recruit will arrive after d3 games. On a natural 1 the warrior is lost along with all their gear. On a natural 6 another warrior of your choice arrives with them and may be hired when they arrive. This second warrior will have no rare equipment with them - only common equipment from the list.

In fact, I am considering allowing *all* warbands to recruit like this. I will have to think about it some more.
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PostSubject: Re: Shadows Elves again   Mon 15 Aug 2011 - 1:37

Hmmm, maybe d6 games if they can bring rare equipment with them...
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PostSubject: Re: Shadows Elves again   Mon 15 Aug 2011 - 10:02

Just add +1 game per rare item they bring to represent the time it takes for them to locate and purchase the items?
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PostSubject: Re: Shadows Elves again   Mon 15 Aug 2011 - 16:26

Or make the d6 roll Lord O suggested (it is simpler than Saranor's original suggestion or my revision), and just add one if the recruit is bringing rare items.

I think with the Seeker skill (the +/-1 on search rolls) I will make it for the starting heroes, so promoted henchmen won't have it.

I appreciate all the comments!



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PostSubject: Re: Shadows Elves again   Tue 13 Sep 2011 - 13:45

Been looking for something like this.

I like what I am reading here. Has any play testing been done?

the d3 roll above Lord0 said I think works best with a +1 turn for each rare item.
I don't think all warbands though should suffer from this as many are going to have an easy time finding new recruits... maybe to hire experianced recruits but not all recruits.
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PostSubject: Re: Shadows Elves again   Tue 13 Sep 2011 - 14:17

Hi, Pervavita. They have not been playtested yet, but we have a campaign we hope to start in November where I will be running them.

I do need to post what I have finally decided to do with the recruitment - a variation of what we have been discussing here. I will try to write it up and post it in the next day or so.

-Michael
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PostSubject: Re: Shadows Elves again   Tue 13 Sep 2011 - 14:17

I almost have my starting warband painted, too - all new figures.
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PostSubject: Re: Shadows Elves again   Tue 13 Sep 2011 - 15:35

look forward to it. My son is just starting and has chosen to go with Shadow Elves. I looked up info on the Mordheimer and saw they were bumped from offical for being OP. As he is new i'm fine with him playing an OP warband but as he gets some experiance I want to get some modding to adjust the balance and this seams a good choice.
my thought on it was going to be raise all the starting Exp on the heroes to make advancment slower for them and they would "max out" sooner then other war bands.
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PostSubject: Re: Shadows Elves again   Tue 13 Sep 2011 - 17:14

I actually did raise the starting Ex Pts on the champs and spell-caster a bit - I have them starting at 12 (at least, I think that was a change... haven't looked at the originals in a while).
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PostSubject: Re: Shadows Elves again   Wed 14 Sep 2011 - 7:25

OK, here is the revised version of the Scarce rule - keeping the original way but adding the mail-order system as an additional form of recruitment:

Scarce: Recruiting new warriors is not easy for the Shadow Warriors, as there are few elves in the old world, and even fewer near Mordheim. Usually a new recruit must come from far-off Ulthuan. To find new members, the warband has two options. First, the warband’s captain may use his or her rare search roll, exactly as if the captain was looking for a rare item. On a roll of 10 or higher, the warband is immediately able to recruit another Shadow elf. The captain may add +1 to this roll if the Shadow Elves won the previous scenario. The Streetwise skill also modifies this roll, although it only adds +1 to the roll, rather than the +2 benefit the captain would receive if looking for a rare item. If attempting to recruit a henchman into an existing henchman group, the warband must still make the roll to see if it has found someone with enough experience to join the group (see “New Recruits and Existing Henchman Groups”, p. 144). Alternatively, the warband may send to Ulthuan for new recruits. In this case, only inexperienced henchmen can be recruited. The warband pays the price for the recruit, including the recruit’s equipment, and then rolls a d6 and consults the following table:

1 The recruit never arrives.
2 The recruit arrives after 3 games.
3 The recruit arrives after 2 games.
4 The recruit arrives after 1 game.
5 The recruit arrives after 1 game. Roll a d6, and if the result is a “1” the recruit has been arrested by xenophobic local authorities on suspicion of being suspicious. The warband can ransom him for 5 g.c., and can redeem any items of his seized equipment for half of its original cost.
6 The recruit arrives after 1 game. Roll a d6, and on a result of 5+ two recruits arrive instead of one. Both are equipped in an identical fashion, and they constitute a single henchman group. The warband does not have to pay for the second recruit or that recruit's equipment.

When recruiting from Ulthuan, a new recruit can be equipped with an Elven shortbow.

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PostSubject: Re: Shadows Elves again   Thu 15 Sep 2011 - 9:12

I had a suggestion a while ago of a fluff-heavy nerf concerning the Elves. No game-testing has been made, however the response then was positive:

––––

Centinarian
Elves are an old breed, and those who have lived a full hundred years are still considered quite young. Hence, they have experienced far more in there lifetime than a common man. Of this reason elves gain experience at half a rate as other members from warbands do. When an experience is gain, fill the experience-box with half a cross i.e with a dash.

––––

This change would mean that shadow elves still are strong in the early-game, however later in the campaign they will lose there early advantage.
/popmouth
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PostSubject: Re: Shadows Elves again   Thu 15 Sep 2011 - 9:20

mweaver wrote:
I actually did raise the starting Ex Pts on the champs and spell-caster a bit - I have them starting at 12 (at least, I think that was a change... haven't looked at the originals in a while).
no you did not. it is 20/12/12 at least on the Mordheimer website.

also like the recruitment chart a lot. I think it fits for any elves really (with fluff adjustments)
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PostSubject: Re: Shadows Elves again   Thu 15 Sep 2011 - 11:23

Ah - I had noted the weirdish number (12) and assumed that I had changed it w/o double-checking.

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PostSubject: Re: Shadows Elves again   Mon 19 Sep 2011 - 21:49

The scarce rules seem too complicated to me.

What if you added 2d6 gold to the cost of any new recruit to represent the travel expense of bringing a new Elf into the Warband?

Or, you could simply limit it to one new model per game.

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PostSubject: Re: Shadows Elves again   Mon 19 Sep 2011 - 22:13

Interesting alternative, Montegue. We are hoping to start a campaign in November, and I think I will try Scarce as I listed above (based on suggestions here). If it proves too complicated, may implement your suggestion or something similar. I tend to keep good records for campaigns, so I don't think it will be a problem.
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PostSubject: Re: Shadows Elves again   Wed 21 Sep 2011 - 9:32

I think Seeker, even as a skill, is too good. Tarot Cards doesn't do it all the time, has a hefty downside and cost 50gc, yet they are wonderful items. If you play a little around with the exploration things, you could easily get 5 mods with this warband (Elf Ranger, 2 Heroes with Seeker, Deck of Tarots, Kislevite Ranger). Which would enable an almost certainity for getting 5 of a kind or better.

I did this with a Miraglean warband once (everybody got Tarots, and the Rangers fit in well with the crossbow heroes), I had +8 mods and were constantly finding slaughtered warbands or hidden treasures among the ruins. The amount of income was so high I could afford about 5HS and Johann the Knife.

So I urge you to limit the amount of models with the seeker skill to 2 or 3. Even then it is really good. If you then limit these guys from using Tarot Cards. You could do pretty well.
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