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felixjaeger
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PostSubject: Warbands Balance   Thu 4 Aug 2011 - 16:08

I wanted to ask if there is a system to balance thewarbands in time to play games.

In Bloodbowl give you points for hire mercenaries, perhaps in Mordheim may be a good solution.

I had thought of adding the value of the band, the cost of all the money, and money they have in the bank. The difference in points with the highest band would be the points to spend on mercenaries.

What do you think?
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Mike
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PostSubject: Re: Warbands Balance   Thu 4 Aug 2011 - 16:14

Underdog rules seem to catch "unbalanced" warbands up pretty quicly. Though we are just in the beginning of our second Mordheim campaign season we saw underdog warbands turned nasty very quickly with powerful heroes and henchmen if not much on the way of gear. Most games come down to scenario and tactics for us.

I cannot comment on the Bloodbowl method but it is a game that is being considered for my gaming group's queue.
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LAZtheinfamous
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PostSubject: Re: Warbands Balance   Thu 4 Aug 2011 - 16:43

I think it really depends. If you are a starting warband joining a long established campaign, well then you are out of luck. Even underdogs can't really help you from being steamrolled in the first few games. However, I don't see that much of a balance issue as long as the warband ratings are within about 100.

In a few of our games, we had a 70 pt warband taking on a 203 pt warband, and it wasn't that bad of a massacre. The underdogs actually almost won (he rolled box cars on the rout check)
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RationalLemming
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PostSubject: Re: Warbands Balance   Thu 4 Aug 2011 - 18:46

As mentioned by LAZ, new warbands will almost always be slaughtered by experienced warbands. If the new warband can stick in there though for several games then underdog will help them get up-to-speed quickly in regards to skills and experience. It will take a lot longer though for the new warband to get up-to-speed in regards to money, equipment and warband size.

If you are not talking about new warbands against experienced warbands then the starting gold crowns warbands together with the costs of warriors / equipment for warbands should mean that all starting warbands will be fairly balanced.
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shotguncoffee
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PostSubject: Re: Warbands Balance   Thu 4 Aug 2011 - 18:56

moving underdog experience around so it is gained BEFORE the battle helps a great deal
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StyrofoamKing
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PostSubject: Re: Warbands Balance   Thu 4 Aug 2011 - 21:32

Shotgun: I see the thinking behind it, but it doubles the length of the EXP / post game phase.

I remember the Necromunda system (and the Deathwatch game too, I think), uses the COST + the EXP to calculate rating. Would be a lot more work and the would throw out the underdog table, but could work.

Although, considering the exp in Necro was so much higher, you'd have to use this for mordheim:

Cost + (2 x Exp)

Underdog Chart - same as normal, but x3.

It makes no sense counting UNSPENT money, as it's doing nothing. It has no value unspent, and lots of value spent.
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mweaver
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PostSubject: Re: Warbands Balance   Thu 4 Aug 2011 - 23:30

We have never felt the need to use anything but the Underdog rules, with one slight houserule change: if the weaker warband never has a significant encounter* with a warband with a high enough rating to kick in the UD rules, they don't benefit from the extra experience. In other words, in a six-player game where only the weakest and strongest warbands are far enough apart in rating, the UG bonus only kicks in if they have a significant encounter.

*Which we generally define as one of the bands takes at least one of the other guys out of action, although we always reserve the right to add something else in case of weird events.
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Lord 0
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PostSubject: Re: Warbands Balance   Fri 5 Aug 2011 - 1:09

I have *never* liked the way that Bloodbowl includes money in the bank as part of your rating. It doesn't *do* anything until it is spent!

For warband rating formulas, I found this one pretty good ((listed Warrior cost*/10)round up) +2 per weapon, +1 per piece of equipment + armour value** + xp that counts towards levels + 5 per non-large member +20 per Large Target***. Anything in the stash doesn't count.

It is a pretty good blend of complexity and ease of use. In practice it it much easier to use than it looks, particularly the part about only counting xp that counts towards levels. It means that if noone levels and noone equips anything (common after the first few games) then your warband rating doesn't change and you can go right to the next game.

* The cost that appears in the warband rules section. How much gold you paid doesn't matter. Mutations count as part of the cost, but only the listed value. Don't double the value after the first.

** Armour value is a GW hidden stat - heck, they don't even *talk* about it, let alone list it anywhere. I don't know why they don't just list it normally; the fact that they don't is one of my irritations with the system. Anyway, Armour value works the same way as Ballistic Skill, i.e. D6 + BS/AV + modifiers needs a 7+ to succeed. Light armour has an AV of 1, Gromril has an AV of 3, shields give +1 to your AV, etc.
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PostSubject: Re: Warbands Balance   Fri 5 Aug 2011 - 8:52

Sounds like an interesting formula.
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Saranor
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PostSubject: Re: Warbands Balance   Fri 5 Aug 2011 - 13:47

we used the cost for stand alone games with advances as a starting point and got to this Underdog-System

warband rating
* sum: cost of the modell
* half the price of the equipment
* weapons used via weapons training/weaponexpert counts full
* Gromril and Ithilmar weapons costs the the basic item (half) + 5 Punkte
* Opulent coach, wyrdstone pendulum and Tarot cards doesn't count
* Advances (injuries subtract the respective amount)
+ movement -> 20 gold
+ weaponskill -> 10 Gold
+ balistic skill -> 10 Gold
+ strength -> 15 Gold
+ toughness -> 25 Gold
+ wounds -> first 10 Gold, further 15
+ initiative -> 10 Gold
+ attacks -> 20 Gold
+ Leadership -> 15 for the leader / 10 for others
+ weapon training, weaponexpert, haggle, street wise, wyrdstone hunter -> 0 Gold
+ other skills -> 20 Gold

For every 50 Points difference you get 1 reroll or you get DP or Hired Swords for one game free.

We wantet, that the underdog can take part in the game and don't have to wait until the slaughter is over and get his bonus exp...
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Grimscull
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PostSubject: Re: Warbands Balance   Fri 5 Aug 2011 - 14:28

@ Saranor: I just found this threat and thought: I bet my right hand Saranor already posted our warband rating system here ^^
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PostSubject: Re: Warbands Balance   Today at 17:15

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