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Tintin
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PostSubject: Wizards Staff?   Mon 25 Jul 2011 - 5:27

I have been ordering miniatures for a upcoming adventure with a Sorcerous Society Warband, and one of the special things they can use are a Wizards Staff.

The rules and cost for it are like following:

Wizardís Staff
10 gold crowns
Availability: Common
Many Wizards find the use of a staff both practical for
their long journeys and to defend them when the use of
their magical arts will draw suspicion.
Range Strength Special rules
Close Combat As User Parry, 2 Handed, Concussion
Special Rules:
Parry: A warrior armed with a Wizardís Staff may
attempt to Parry a blow, just as a sword.
2 Handed: A model using a Wizardís Staff may not
use a shield, buckler or additional weapon in close
combat. If the model has a shield, it receives a +1
bonus to his armour save versus shooting attacks.
Concussion: When using a Wizardís Staff, a roll of 2-
4 is treated as stunned when rolling on the injury table.

I would like to make some sort of change to it, to make it more a "casters" weapon, however, adding +1 casting value or something like it, would without doubt make it a bit costly for a starter warband.
Any suggestions or thoughts?
If we would add +1 casting, what would the price be? I mean, how do you quantify a skill like that to actuall gold value?
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PostSubject: Re: Wizards Staff?   Mon 25 Jul 2011 - 5:33

+1 to casting is pretty powerful. I would say around 40 gc, and make it rare 9. You know that there already is a skill that gives a spell caster +1? I suggest that your wizards staff and this skill can't be combined.
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PostSubject: Re: Wizards Staff?   Mon 25 Jul 2011 - 5:40

I want cumulative effects of the + casting, however, there is allways the possibility of testing both versions.
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PostSubject: Re: Wizards Staff?   Mon 25 Jul 2011 - 6:06

Prayer users can buy a holy tome for 100 + D6*10, and CANT stack with a skill, so if you want this I say price should be 200 gc or close.

Personally I wuld not make a item like this.

-Skavenslayer
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PostSubject: Re: Wizards Staff?   Mon 25 Jul 2011 - 6:46

Staff
Cost: 5 gold
Rarity: Common
Availability: All warriors that can take a club can take a staff

Range: Close combat, Strength: As user, Special Rules: Two handed, Parry, Concussion

Wizard's Staff
Cost: 40 gold
Rarity: 10
Availability: Wizards only

Range: Close combat, Strength: As user, Special Rules: Two handed, Parry, Concussion, Enchanted (Arcane Bolt), [insert special rule name].

Enchanted (Arcane Bolt):
A wizard's staff has the spell Arcane Bolt built into it. A wizard equipped with the staff can cast the following spell instead of a spell he knows following all of the normal casting rules.

Arcane Bolt
Difficulty: 6
Range: 24Ē
An arcane bolt sizzles from the weapon and flies towards the target.
The bolt is Strength 4, must roll against BS of the caster to hit, normal ranged targeting restrictions apply. May not be used in close combat. All relevant ranged modifiers apply.

[insert special rule name]: A wizard's staff takes up a ranged weapon equipment slot and a ranged slot.



What this does is gives the mages access to a blasting spell that is about the same power as a crossbow. It is has less range than a crossbow and might fail to work, but on the plus side it can be fired after moving. The arcane bolt spell is easier to get off than Fireball, but doesn't auto-hit, cannot be fired in combat, and must target the closest enemy unlike Fireball. It does have a longer range though. The staff takes up a ranged slot and a melee slot in their equipment, but then so would a staff and a crossbow and that would be of similar power so is of similar price. Also, if the wizard doesn't roll a blasting spell it gives them a means of earning xp without going into close combat, but still using their magical skills.
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PostSubject: Re: Wizards Staff?   Mon 25 Jul 2011 - 7:25

so if they wanted to use arcane bolt would they have to cast the spell then roll to hit? if so it might not be worth it as you have a good chance at failing.
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PostSubject: Re: Wizards Staff?   Mon 25 Jul 2011 - 9:08

I like Lord O's suggestion.

Basically the thing to do is to have a non-magical staff that is cheap and readily available. But then you could have a variety of staffs that granted the wizard an additional spell or some bonus to casting (including once per game rerolls, single bound spells, etc.). In general, things that enhance magic in Mordheim are (and should be) expensive.
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PostSubject: Re: Wizards Staff?   Mon 25 Jul 2011 - 9:09

I nice magic staff would make a good objective for a scenario... or even a string of scenarios.

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PostSubject: Re: Wizards Staff?   Mon 25 Jul 2011 - 14:32

Funny, I've made very similar mods to the staff in my house rules (Parry, Concussion, 2 handed).

My parry rules and critical hits rules are a little different, which affects the way the staff works, but the basic function is the same.

As far as a magical staff goes, I think it's highly unlikely that you would be able to buy one on the streets of Mordheim (given the fantacical anti-sorcery attitude toward magic in the empire).

I prefer the idea that rather than trying to buy it through a weapons dealer, the wizard constructs it himself. He carefully selects a peice of wood of the correct type, thickness, length, etc, and then performs a ritual to bind the spell to the staff. The rarity reflects the successfulness of him completing the spell.

I'd make the staff a rare 12 item at the beginning of the game, and giving the wizard +1 to his rolls for every experience upgrade he has (it gets easier as he gets stronger). Obviously, only the wizard himself may construct such an item.

I'd suggest a cost of say 20 gold crowns for raw materiels, and a shard of wyrdstone to collect the magical energies. If he fails in his attempt, he may resuse the raw materiels, but must provide a new shard of wyrdstone every time he attepmts to create the staff again. This is similar to the rules for a familiar, but adds a fluffy element that really works well with the background material.

I think I'm going to use this...
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PostSubject: Re: Wizards Staff?   Mon 25 Jul 2011 - 18:33

Hey Lord0 I really like your idea, I will introduce it to my collegues and see what they think about it! Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Wizards Staff?   Mon 25 Jul 2011 - 19:25

pistolpete308 wrote:
I'd make the staff a rare 12 item at the beginning of the game, and giving the wizard +1 to his rolls for every experience upgrade he has (it gets easier as he gets stronger). Obviously, only the wizard himself may construct such an item.

This is a good idea, but given how quickly you get level-ups I think perhaps making it +1per spell you know would make it a bit more meaningful, unless it is your intention to make it fairly trivial to get a bit later on. Or possibly +1 per wizard-only skills (including spells)?

If you are using Rarity rolls will things that normally affect it do so? e.g. Streetwise, Marienburger bonus etc. It could go either way - the bonuses reflect the easier time acquiring needed components and so forth.
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PostSubject: Re: Wizards Staff?   Mon 25 Jul 2011 - 20:33

Well, I kind of like the idea that it's a HAND TO HAND weapon, like a crossbow pistol or a pistol

Static Bolt - Difficulty 9 - This spell may be used at the beginning of any combat phase during which the wizard has just charged or been charged. The wizard may make a Single S4 hit against one of the chargers, which is resolved before combat. May not be used if the wizard is already in combat, and only once per combat. Unlike most spells, this is fired before the combat (during any player's turn) and may not be fired during the Shooting phase.

Firebolt - Difficulty 7 - Range 10" Strikes the nearest visible target within range with a S4 bolt that deals an additional -1 to armor saves. This may not be used while the caster is in combat. However, if the caster is in combat, during the first round of combat, he may cast the spell during the combat phase. This replaces one of his normal attacks, and strikes at initiative armor. You must pass the Difficulty roll, but are not required to roll BS to hit. The combat "strike" may be used if the wizard cast a spell this turn, and may be used during an opponent's turn.
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PostSubject: Re: Wizards Staff?   Tue 26 Jul 2011 - 5:46

Personally im all in for Pistolpete308's idea!
Making the staff can be an scenario by itself!

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PostSubject: Re: Wizards Staff?   Tue 26 Jul 2011 - 7:18

Making it or finding it as part of one or more scenarios provides some interesting possibilities. But if it works better for the campaign, finding it as a rare item could also be justified. You can find some weird stuff already, and although a wizard's staff (with, of course, a knob on the end) would be a rare, rare thing to find - it could certainly be possible.
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PostSubject: Re: Wizards Staff?   Wed 27 Jul 2011 - 16:12

Tintin: Logically, your default wizard's staff (at the top of the page) would be worth 7gc, not 10gc.

Think about it, it's basically a hammer + a buckler.

If you don't mind, I would love to use it in the Storm of Magic campaign. If you finish the "build a staff" scenario, let me know, it sounds great!
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PostSubject: Re: Wizards Staff?   Thu 28 Jul 2011 - 2:27

Quote :

This is a good idea, but given how quickly you get level-ups I think perhaps making it +1per spell you know would make it a bit more meaningful, unless it is your intention to make it fairly trivial to get a bit later on. Or possibly +1 per wizard-only skills (including spells)?

If you are using Rarity rolls will things that normally affect it do so? e.g. Streetwise, Marienburger bonus etc. It could go either way - the bonuses reflect the easier time acquiring needed components and so forth.

Well it could work either way. I suppose I'd set the minimum rarity level at 9, to reflect the difficulty of building the thing. Remember, too, that it burns up a warpstone shard every time you fail so the real price is likely to be pretty high by the time you finish it.

But I would not let any other skills or bonuses affect the construction of the staff,as it is not a purchased item, but a constructed one. Marienburgers may have merchant connections but they're not going to be able to influence the creation of a magic item.
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PostSubject: Re: Wizards Staff?   Thu 28 Jul 2011 - 9:17

I would suggest making it a test like the roll for a Wolf Cloak. Maybe based on his casting bonuses? It is a magical creation after all. That would make it not a test of rarity but of skill.
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PostSubject: Re: Wizards Staff?   Thu 28 Jul 2011 - 16:48

pistolpete308 wrote:
Marienburgers may have merchant connections but they're not going to be able to influence the creation of a magic item.
Of course they could. If you wanted them to Smile. The merchant connections allow one creating the staff to get hold of greater quantities of virgin blood, purer samples of wych-leaf (just the new leaf - no stems or old leaves mixed in), blood from more ancient dragons, etc. None of this would guarantee success, but could be enough to tip the balance, say, a +1 or +2 depending on the individuals contacts.

Rules can always be bent to fit the background and background can always be invented to fit the rules. It is all just a question of what you want the end result to be.
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PostSubject: Re: Wizards Staff?   Thu 28 Jul 2011 - 17:14

For Chaos could they sacrfice henchmen to replace the wyrdstone cost?
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PostSubject: Re: Wizards Staff?   Thu 28 Jul 2011 - 19:10

I like these ideas although they seem to be all over the place.

I agree with Lord 0. If the ability to craft the Wizard Staff is based on rarity then the skills that affect rarity should be allowed to apply. The fluff can be made to work and it keeps things simple.

I like Lord 0's idea for the Arcane Bolt too (oh know I'm agreeing with Lord 0 a lot here!! Surprised). It just appeals to me for some reason. Very Happy Note though that rules already exist for a standard staff... it is categorised in the same weapon group as clubs, hammers and maces so I do not think that it is necessary to create new rules for a standard staff.
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PostSubject: Re: Wizards Staff?   Fri 29 Jul 2011 - 4:07

Standard staff: Awww, but it's so fun!

It could even be both:

One handed: concussion
Two handed: concussion + parry.

So, hammer, or hammer and buckler? Your choice.
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PostSubject: Re: Wizards Staff?   Fri 29 Jul 2011 - 5:37

Both RationalLemming's and StyrofoamKing's opinions match mine, so they are obviously both people of high intelligence and keen perception Very Happy.

As for the rules of the staff, I am kind of like Tintin and the DHW - the rules for it have always just bugged me. I have never personally used a DHW much, but Tintin's opinions on dual wielding show evidence of high intelligence and keen perception so I am more than happy to accept his word on DHWs as well.

Anyway, the long stick has always been one of my favorite weapons and I have been slightly disappointed that its rules are the same as the short stick ever since I first played Mordheim. In the past I just brushed it off as a simplicity-over-complexity design choice. It is, after all, a game and not a simulation so I could live with it.

But no longer! Smile The rules presented here (with a minor tweak) make me much happier. Without further ado I present: The Long Stick (aka 'staff').

Staff
Cost: 5 gold
Rarity: Common
Availability: All warriors that can take a club can take a staff

Range: Close combat, Strength: As user, Special Rules: Variable handed, Variable Concussion, Variable Parry

Variable handed: The staff may be used either one or two handed.
Variable Concussion: When used two handed the staff gains the concussion special rule and will therefore stun on a 2-4 on the Injury roll.
Variable Parry: When used two handed the staff gains the parry special rule and may therefore blah blah blah normal parry rule etc.

Oh, and just in case anyone is interested, the earlier rule I presented for the Wizard's Staff was originally designed by me as something called a 'Glyph of Blasting'. It could be applied to any close combat weapon and took up a ranged slot. This was so it could be applied to any wizard's weapon and still be sensible as far as the model was concerned. For example, if the wizard only had a sword and a DHW eg this guy. The orc in the link clearly has the glyph of blasting applied to a DHW rather than just a normal staff. Some Skaven have one applied to a sword or halberd and so on and so forth. If you failed to install it you lost the purchase price, but I couldn't decide if you lost the weapon as well. It was basically there to give wizards a ranged weapon that was good, but not too good and would not be affected by shooting skills should any mundane sniper get their hands on it.


Last edited by Lord 0 on Sat 30 Jul 2011 - 18:26; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Wizards Staff?   Fri 29 Jul 2011 - 15:44

Lord O - I think they should have concussion when one-handed... that means it matches the current rules of staff=club. The two-handed ADD ON grants parry as well.

Again, cost should be higher than 5... otherwise, it's better than a buckler. I originally said 7, but I should have said 8.

Concussion + Parry = Club + Buckler
Club (3) + Buckler (5) = 8gc
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PostSubject: Re: Wizards Staff?   Sat 30 Jul 2011 - 21:05

I lowered the price because it is not as good as a buckler and club.
A staff cannot be used any other weapon - it is effectively a buckler *locked* to the club. You cannot optionally go with the club and dagger for the extra attack, nor can you optionally go with the buckler and some other, possibly more useful, weapon (e.g. sword if you are stalling for backup, or an axe if your opponent has a high armour save, etc). Also, there is availability ó many warbands don't have access to bucklers at all.

Also, when all is said and done, it is a stick. A *long* stick, but a stick none-the-less. In my mind it costs 3 gold, same as a mace or hammer, and the extra 2 gold is spent on all the magical-looking widgets to increase the headology effect of the staff.

I didn't factor this in the pricing, but in my circle we have the following houserules that tip things in favour of the buckler/mace combo over the staff: bucklers and shields gain +1 armour save in melee and the Strength skill Shield Bash allows one to make an off-hand attack with a shield or buckler at -1S.
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PostSubject: Re: Wizards Staff?   Sat 30 Jul 2011 - 22:42

The staff should be a two-handed weapon only. That's where your control and power come from. There ARE some single handed techniques, but in general, the staff is used as a two handed weapon.

If you start allowing the staff to be used one handed, then you end up with staff dual-wielding, sheild and staff, and buckler and staff combos that realistically make no sense.

The other issue is that the staff becomes MUCH better as a weapon if it can be used one handed as well as two handed. Why carry a club at all, if the staff can act as a club AND a staff?

I've adjusted my ruleset to create a more realstic apprach to such things.

For example, a club is NOT equivalent to a mace or hammer. In my ruleset, the club is a weak entry-level weapon. It has the concussion ability, but cannot use it against an opponent wearing a helmet. It also uses the weakest critical hit table.

The staff is a two handed weapon with parry and concussion. Unlike the club, the staff is strong enough to concuss somebody in a helmet. It also uses a stronger critical hit table than the club, to reflect the greater power it generates.

A mace/hammer causes concussion, and has a better critical table than the staff, to reflect it's greater power. It is a one handed weapon, and thus, can be used with a sheild/buckler or a second hand weapon.

The critical tables go from A to E, with A being the most powerful, and E being the least powerful. This allows different weapons to be balanced against each other more easily.

I've changed the parry rules a bit as well. Some weapons now parry better than others. Shortswords can parry attacks at the users strength or lower. Swords can parry attacks at the user's strength +1. Polearms, staves, and spears may parry at the users strength +2.

A buckler adds +1 to the user's parry value, or gives him a base-level parry if he's not using a parrying weapon. So a shortsword and buckler parries at +1, and a sword and buckler parries at +2.

There's a litt bit more to it than that, but it's not too complex. I just wanted something that encouraged parrying, and made it more tactical.

So, getting back to my original point, a staff will parry better than a club/mace used with a buckler. The mace still hits harder than the staff, making it a viable alternative, especially when enemies get tougher.

I've also started on a sliding scale of availablity for weapons. Even common weapons will have a comparitive availablity. Things like clubs and daggers will be readily available, while more desirable equipment (swords, pistols, etc.) will be harder to find.

Boosting the warband's reputation increases the quality of the equipment available to it, as merchants come seeking out the more impressive warbands.

This makes even common weapons interesting, while making the more powerful items less common to keep them from overwhelming the early game. Upgrading your club to a mace is now a big deal, and you won't see something like duelling pistols or gromril weapons until your warband has established itself.
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