HomeFAQSearchRegisterUsergroupsBlogLog inGolden Tom 2014 Thread!

Share | 
 

 Weapons and aromor and game balance, oh my!

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
AuthorMessage
pistolpete308
Hero
Hero


Posts : 37
Trading Reputation : 0
Join date : 2009-10-31
Location : Antioch California

Personal Info
Primary Warband played: Witch Hunters Witch Hunters
Achievements earned: none

PostSubject: Weapons and aromor and game balance, oh my!   Sat 23 Jul 2011 - 19:52

So, like a lot of people I've found the basic mordheim rules annoyingly unbalanced. I've been taking a whack at the weapon/armor balance because that seems to be one of the most critical areas.

One of the big changes I've made is a modified set of critical hit tables. Weapons are rated from A-E with A weapons having the most powerful criticals, and E weapons ahving the weakest criticals. Weapons with an X rating do not get critical hits.

Critcals are also much less powerful overall, and less random than the official critical charts (where people can be knocked clean out of combat). The effect of a crit can be pretty mild (-1 to armor save), and it is a gradual progression to the most powerful weapons.

This has allowed me to "fine tune" weapon balance between similar weapons, making weapon choices more interesting and viable.

The club, for example, has long been the generic weapon of choice for EVERYBODY.

In my ruleset, the club is an entry-level weapon. Its still cheap, but it has a crappy critical value (E) due to it's relatively light weight and crude cornstruction. It can inflict a concussion, but anybody wearing a helmet is completely immune to the concussion effect of the club.

A mace, on the other hand, has a much better critical table (C), concussion, and a -1 armor bonus, but is much more expensive.

Armor has also been tweaked to make it more useful. Anybody with a hand weapon and shield gets and extra +1 to thier armor save in combat (unless mounted on a horse). This is straight out of 6th/7th ed warhammer, but it makes amror more viable and makes the warrior choose between dual wielding or hand wep and sheild.

Armor also provides a save against death/dismemberment if you're taken out of action, making armor a much more important purchase for your warband. Cheaper forms of armor exist, but they have drawbacks.

Padded armor, for example, is cheap. But because it becomes infested with vermin, and fouled by sweat and other nasty things, you can't swap it between warband members... nobody else will touch it. The filth also makes it less efeective in protecting a warrior after combat (due to the grime contaiminating the wounds). Hereos, of course, would not be caught wearing something so tacky.

Henchmen will be able to get by with cheaper forms of armor, while heroes will want the better types. But the different grades give you a way to gradually armor up.

Dual wielding is still viable, but it's no longer the automatic choice that it once was. Anybody who wants to do it safely must have some pricey armor to offset his lack of a shield.

I've also had some fun with the free dagger. albino

The dagger that everybody comes with is pretty weak, but because it's free, it's a decent choice in the early game. However, I've allowed players to upgrade thier personal weapon. Some weapons (club, long dagger, and short sword) now have the "sidearm" rule. These may replace the dagger as a personal weapon, and do not take up a weapons slot. Don't worry, even the best weapon of the bunch (shortsword) isn't terribly powerful. But it does give some of the weaker weapons a longer usefulness in the game.

I've been toying with the idea of making sidearm weapons the only ones that can be dual-wielded in a second hand, but I'll try a little playtesting before going there.

I've also tried to make the rules a little more realistic, reflecting the way different weapon and armor combinations work.

The rapier, for example, is great against unarmored enemies, but really suffers against armored foes (like the real thing). Used in a defensive manner, the rapier can parry. It has a pretty weak critical table (D) reflecting the fact that the warrior is sniping at those parts of the enemy that are not protected by his armor, instead of going for the vitals. When used offensively, the rapier gives the warrior +1 to wound, and a much better critical table (B), but it cannot parry and the opponent gets a +1 bonus to his armor save, reflecting the difficulty of getting to the vitals behind the armor.

I think these changes will keep the game interesting and give players a lot of different options about how they equip thier warband. Weapon choices are not nearly so cut and dry, which makes the arms race between players much more subtle and devious.

Back to top Go down
View user profile
folketsfiende
Venerable Ancient
Venerable Ancient


Posts : 998
Trading Reputation : 2
Join date : 2009-05-08
Location : Stockholm, Sweden

Personal Info
Primary Warband played:
Achievements earned: none

PostSubject: Re: Weapons and aromor and game balance, oh my!   Sat 23 Jul 2011 - 21:22

It seems that you've put together quite an impressive system. It sounds complicated though, how managable is it? Is it sometimes a source of confusion?

It would be interesting to see the system in it's whole. Do you have it written down?
Back to top Go down
View user profile
RationalLemming
Etheral
Etheral


Posts : 1454
Trading Reputation : 0
Join date : 2008-11-05
Age : 32
Location : Toowoomba, Qld, Australia

Personal Info
Primary Warband played: Ostlanders Ostlanders
Achievements earned: none

PostSubject: Re: Weapons and aromor and game balance, oh my!   Sat 23 Jul 2011 - 22:52

Actually I believe that a lot of people do *not* find basic Mordheim rules annoyingly unbalanced. Having said that though, I would agree with you so far as to say that I believe that most people think that armour is slightly underpowered and that duel wielding is maybe slightly overpowered. To me though this is pretty much the extent of any problems with the core Mordheim rules and in my opinion both of these can be solved almost as simply as giving shields and bucklers an extra +1AS in close combat. I don't believe that there is a need for anything too much more complex then this.

Of course, you need to do what you need to do to ensure that your gaming group has fun playing together. If you believe that your rules achieve that then excellent. thumbsup Once you have played with these rules in a campaign or two then we would all be interested to hear how the rules worked in practice. Smile
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://sites.google.com/site/ourhouserules/mordheim
Kasumi
Youngblood
Youngblood


Posts : 6
Trading Reputation : 0
Join date : 2010-02-27
Location : Everywhere and Nowhere at the same time... A.K.A. Australia

Personal Info
Primary Warband played: Marienburgers Marienburgers
Achievements earned: none

PostSubject: Re: Weapons and aromor and game balance, oh my!   Sat 23 Jul 2011 - 23:14

Your new critical hit tables sound intriguing (although quite complicated on paper, may be different in game)

Any chance you could put them up for us to see so we could have a look at them? (and maybe steal some ideas? Very Happy )
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://www.flickr.com/photos/blackspine_mountains/
Paluke
Venerable Ancient
Venerable Ancient


Posts : 759
Trading Reputation : 1
Join date : 2008-11-23
Age : 31
Location : Netherlands, Groningen

Personal Info
Primary Warband played: Marienburgers Marienburgers
Achievements earned: none

PostSubject: Re: Weapons and aromor and game balance, oh my!   Sun 24 Jul 2011 - 0:11

I would like a copy of that rulesset!
Back to top Go down
View user profile
pistolpete308
Hero
Hero


Posts : 37
Trading Reputation : 0
Join date : 2009-10-31
Location : Antioch California

Personal Info
Primary Warband played: Witch Hunters Witch Hunters
Achievements earned: none

PostSubject: Re: Weapons and aromor and game balance, oh my!   Sun 24 Jul 2011 - 7:06

Quote :
It seems that you've put together quite an impressive system. It sounds complicated though, how managable is it? Is it sometimes a source of confusion?

It would be interesting to see the system in it's whole. Do you have it written down

The system *is* more complicated. But it's not that difficult to figure out. The weapons have a little more variety, and there are a few more weapon types, but it's mostly common sense. It may slow gameplay down a bit, but that's not a big deal with a fast game like Mordheim, and many peoiple would consider it a plus, especially if it makes the game more strategic.

I'm trying to go with a set of universal special rules like 40k, making the weapons system easier to understand. For example, a sword has the "parry" and "hand weapon" rules and uses the "C" chart for criticals. An axe is a "hand weapon" with "armor piercing" that uses the "C" critical table and adds +1 to crit rolls. Skaven nunchaku have concussion and use the "B" critical table (placing them between the club and mace power-wise).

The critical tables are not nearly as complex as they sound. The book already has alternative critical tables, but instead of going by weapon type (pokey, crushy, slashy), the weapons are classed by power (A-E).

The sliding scale of power is generally pretty obvious; A dagger is clearly inferior to a sword, a wooden club is clearly inferior to a mace. On the roster sheet you just note it down like: Dagger (E), Halberd (A). Then you roll a d6 and consult the proper table when you score a crit.

I'll post the rules for you guys when I'm done.

Right now they're a bit unorganized and in the protoype phase so there's still a few things I want to tinker with before dropping them out there. But I'll be happy to listen to comments about them when they're done.

Remember though, that other secions of the rulebook will need to be adjusted to fit. Warband rules, skill sets, and other areas will be tinkered with. So please understand that it will be awhile before this is a finished, polished ruleset.




Back to top Go down
View user profile
Soulblight
General
General


Posts : 165
Trading Reputation : 0
Join date : 2010-08-19
Location : Sweden

Personal Info
Primary Warband played: Marienburgers Marienburgers
Achievements earned: none

PostSubject: Re: Weapons and aromor and game balance, oh my!   Sun 24 Jul 2011 - 10:55

I am carefully liking your ideas, especially if its making armor more viable!

Thats my main problem with mordheim; with so many people that can do critical hits and so many weapons that lower the save, armor gets almost useless. Witch, personally, i think is quite wrong.
Mankind has always used some kind of protection and although there is weapons that should negate them, i feel theres too little room for an armour in Mordheim.

With that said, i know this is something we all know and discuss, but im eagerly awaits what you gonna take this! Very Happy
Back to top Go down
View user profile
shotguncoffee
Warlord
Warlord


Posts : 277
Trading Reputation : 0
Join date : 2010-04-18
Location : England

PostSubject: Re: Weapons and aromor and game balance, oh my!   Sun 24 Jul 2011 - 11:04

to my mind, you've identified some of the main problems with the Mordheim system.
though I do not think going more complex is a good way to go.
more simple AND more balanced would be preferable.
there is another ruleset being discussed on this forum which does just that.

alternatively, some simple fixes:
- armour pice
- slings 5gc
- -1 to hit on both attacks when wielding two weapons
Back to top Go down
View user profile
pistolpete308
Hero
Hero


Posts : 37
Trading Reputation : 0
Join date : 2009-10-31
Location : Antioch California

Personal Info
Primary Warband played: Witch Hunters Witch Hunters
Achievements earned: none

PostSubject: Re: Weapons and aromor and game balance, oh my!   Sun 24 Jul 2011 - 19:01

[quote]

to my mind, you've identified some of the main problems with the Mordheim system.
though I do not think going more complex is a good way to go.
more simple AND more balanced would be preferable.
there is another ruleset being discussed on this forum which does just that.

alternatively, some simple fixes:
- armour pice
- slings 5gc
- -1 to hit on both attacks when wielding two weapons[quote]

Armor is more readily available, and much more important. The warrior that dares strut around with two hand weapons is signifcantly less survivable than somebody with hand weapon and sheild and light armor. There are more armor types as well, giving you more options, and allowing you to cut corners if necesary.

I've also made dual weilding a little less desirable by limiting the second weapon to less powerful types.

Slings are 5 gold apiece and can only fire twice (at half range) if they have not moved that turn. I've also swapped the ranges of the shortbow and the sling. The sling now has a 16" range, and the shortbow has an 18" range. I did this partly because all other bow ranges are multiples of 6, and partly because the sling outclasses the shortbow in every regard otherwise. The sling also has a weaker critical table than the shortbow, to further offset the difference.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
shotguncoffee
Warlord
Warlord


Posts : 277
Trading Reputation : 0
Join date : 2010-04-18
Location : England

PostSubject: Re: Weapons and aromor and game balance, oh my!   Sun 24 Jul 2011 - 21:32

all of that is very sound. really!

the only thing I see as that you are moving towads more complex rules.

the best thing is simple rules that allow for complex gameplay
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Tintin
Warlord
Warlord


Posts : 271
Trading Reputation : 4
Join date : 2011-03-09
Location : Stockholm - Sweden

Personal Info
Primary Warband played: Pirates (Unofficial) Pirates (Unofficial)
Achievements earned: none

PostSubject: Re: Weapons and aromor and game balance, oh my!   Sun 24 Jul 2011 - 21:39

Quote :
The warrior that dares strut around with two hand weapons is signifcantly less survivable than somebody with hand weapon and sheild and light armor.

Not to be picky, but in reality that is simply not true. A great weapon, like a two handed sword, works like a weapon and protection at the same time, its all down to technique.
So with that in mind, rules should be viewed with a historical context in mind, and whats viable of course, but more importantly, since our goal is to make working rules that are sort of balanced and fun to play, historical facts and logics sometimes have to make way for the rules set to work.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
pistolpete308
Hero
Hero


Posts : 37
Trading Reputation : 0
Join date : 2009-10-31
Location : Antioch California

Personal Info
Primary Warband played: Witch Hunters Witch Hunters
Achievements earned: none

PostSubject: Re: Weapons and aromor and game balance, oh my!   Mon 25 Jul 2011 - 10:30

Tintin wrote:
Quote :
The warrior that dares strut around with two hand weapons is signifcantly less survivable than somebody with hand weapon and sheild and light armor.

Not to be picky, but in reality that is simply not true. A great weapon, like a two handed sword, works like a weapon and protection at the same time, its all down to technique.
So with that in mind, rules should be viewed with a historical context in mind, and whats viable of course, but more importantly, since our goal is to make working rules that are sort of balanced and fun to play, historical facts and logics sometimes have to make way for the rules set to work.

I agree with you that great swords and hand and a half swords are MUCH more quick and dangerous than most poeple realise. I've added rules for hand and a half swords, and made the greatsword an individual weapon in it's own right.

But you misread my post. I said "two hand weapons" not "two-handed weapons". The point being that (in my ruleset), a warrior with a sword and dagger is not going to have the survivability of a warrior with a sword and shield. Dual wielding is still useful, but now it's a "sometimes" thing instead of an "always" thing.

My ruleset does not use the term "double-handed weapon" at all. Great weapon gets the same idea across with a lot less syllables.

I am actually trying to make two-handed weapons (greatswords, staves, spears, halberds) more defensive, in light of thier performance in real world terms.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
mweaver
Etheral
Etheral


Posts : 1411
Trading Reputation : 0
Join date : 2010-01-14
Location : South Texas, U.S.A.

PostSubject: Re: Weapons and aromor and game balance, oh my!   Mon 25 Jul 2011 - 15:01

"So, like a lot of people I've found the basic mordheim rules annoyingly unbalanced."

Not sure that is really true. Probably the most frequent complaints are (1) armor is not an attractive option and dual-wielding is too effective, and (2) shooting is too powerful. The second complaint is, in most cases, usually the result of either too little terrain or people making the common rules mistake concerning shooting at knocked down/stunned models - or both - so, not a rules problem.

The armor/duel wield thing is not unbalanced in the sense that it makes some warbands more powerful than others - which would be a problem. It simply makes some configurations more pervasive than others. I do not consider that situation "unbalanced", or a major problem (just a matter of semantics, I suppose, but to me rules that are "unbalanced" are rules that upset game play). But the advantage to dual-wielding is a reality with the rules as written, and one that many long-standing groups have dealt with in various ways. Your solution sounds interesting, and you have given it a fair amount of thought. If your group is happy with how it plays, enjoy! My preference (which seems to be by far the most common in the two groups I play with) is for simpler solutions. At the moment, we have adopted the rule that shields grant +2 to AC in melee; we have found that with shields becoming more effective, additional armor has also become more attractive.

Back to top Go down
View user profile
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: Weapons and aromor and game balance, oh my!   Today at 8:17

Back to top Go down
 
Weapons and aromor and game balance, oh my!
View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 1 of 1
 Similar topics
-
» Pirates Game
» Star war Saga Edition top 5 "stock" weapons in the game
» Mai-Otome Elimination Game: The Greatest Otome ROUND 7
» Gerard Butler's New Action Film will be "Citizen Game"-name change confirmed false (April Fools joke)
» Fans of Enigma & Game Zone minis REJOICE!

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
Tom's Boring Mordheim Forum :: General Discussion :: Rules and Gameplay-
Jump to: