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 What's the deal with Coreheim?

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Alcaeus
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PostSubject: What's the deal with Coreheim?   Sun 17 Jul 2011 - 18:06

I haven't played Mordheim in about 2 years (and even then just a few times), but yesterday my wargaming friends came to me saying they had found new Mordheim rules, Coreheim. So, today we met and went over the rules. Now I'm having some doubt as to wether Coreheim would be "better" than Mordheim. Here's my beef:

- My friend told me Coreheim was an updated version of Mordheim made up by a fan, but that it was, or would be, supported by GW. Of what I've seen so far, that's bs, and anyone could (and probably has) make up such a ruleset.

- The rules are simplified, but is this a good thing?

- I feel like it doesn't have a lot of flavor; few warbands, and they don't really do it for me (no Orcs, Sisters of Sigmar, etc.. Seriously?). Ofcourse we could adapt some warbands ourselves but that shouldn't be neccesary with a ruleset that's supposed to build on it's predecessor.

- probably more stuff I'm forgetting right now.

My friends are acting like Coreheim is the succesor to Mordheim but it isn't, or is it? Should I steer them away from Coreheim and back towards Mordheim? What do you people think, what are your experiences and/or toughts? Btw, hasn't Coreheim been around for over a year? My friends can be slow sometimes, lol.

Btw, glad to see this forum is still doing well (I "left" about 2 years ago).
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PostSubject: Re: What's the deal with Coreheim?   Sun 17 Jul 2011 - 19:35

No, coreheim is not official or even GW supported unofficial. It's just a ruleset made by some fans and what they believe makes mordheim, mordheim at its core.

Personally I don't think the rules of mordheim are that broken to begin with, and coreheim, in my opinion introduces too many drastic changes to begin with. It takes the flavor out of the game.

Currently the living rulebook from GW is the most up to date "official" set of rules out there and can be located on the games workshop page here:

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=cat480008a&categoryId=1100010&section=&aId=5300009

There is a FAQ that is semiofficial for the most part floating around, but for the life of me I can't remember where it's located but i'm sure one of the other forumites can point it out.

In my opinion if you're already having reservations about coreheim just reading the rules, i'd stay away from it completely.
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PostSubject: Re: What's the deal with Coreheim?   Sun 17 Jul 2011 - 20:28

I have seen a lot of arguments start when someone mentions Coreheim. I personally do not like Coreheim at all and I thought they ruined Witched Hunters by nerffin their Flagellants
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PostSubject: Re: What's the deal with Coreheim?   Sun 17 Jul 2011 - 20:45

Coreheim is a completely different game. It did have its roots / inspiration in Mordheim but it has changed dramatically from Mordheim. This may not be a bad thing but it definitely is not to everyone's tastes (me included). It has never been and will never be officially recognised by GW (now I know using absolute terms like 'never' is dangerous but I think this is a safe bet). There are a few gaming groups that seem like some/all of Coreheim but a lot of gaming groups are happy sticking to Mordheim as definited by the 'living' rule book on the GW web site (perhaps adding in compatible fan based suppliments (e.g. Border Town Burning) and some or a lot of house rules to suit their tastes).

You can head over to the Warseer Mordheim forum if you want to ask the main author, Asp, questions about Coreheim. He isn't on this forum. However there are other people who like / play Coreheim who are on this forum (e.g. maybe ShotgunCoffee I think) who may post here to offer some insight into Coreheim in regards to having played the game. I'd also recommend doing a search on this forum for "Coreheim" as there have been a lot of posts about it in the past.
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PostSubject: Re: What's the deal with Coreheim?   Mon 18 Jul 2011 - 17:40

One of the friends I mentioned has now played 3 games with Coreheim, and he think there is quite some unbalanced stuff in it (certain weapons and spells), so we might just revert to Mordheim.
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PostSubject: Re: What's the deal with Coreheim?   Mon 18 Jul 2011 - 21:30

yearh, coreheim is great (an unofficial)

there's unbalanced stuff in coreheim for sure, but its hands down WAY more balanced than the original mordheim
still, that might not be the real thing for you
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PostSubject: Re: What's the deal with Coreheim?   Mon 18 Jul 2011 - 21:52

The first part of your question (official or not) is easy to answer: no.

As for whether it's better or not, that's really a matter of opinion. Try for yourself, and draw your own conclusions- or don't. All up to you. (Never tried it myself.)
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PostSubject: Re: What's the deal with Coreheim?   Tue 19 Jul 2011 - 3:58

yearh, what styro said

better is really subjective, there

if you go coreheim you get more balance, clearer rules, faster games, and mechanics that are designed buttom-up for skirmish (rather than scaled-down warhammer rules). the price you pay is fewer warbands, less detail (no helmets etc), and being less in line with WHFB

and obvously, if it was official it wouldn't be free on a community site. it'd be a 600 harcover book from GW :p
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PostSubject: Re: What's the deal with Coreheim?   Tue 19 Jul 2011 - 8:54

I feel like coreheim is at a point where its too balanced. Making it bland, unflavorful and kind of droll.

I understand people want to seek balance in a game, but rock paper scissors is balanced, and i don't want to play it everyday, post on a forum about it spend gobs of money on it, or really even think about it.
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PostSubject: Re: What's the deal with Coreheim?   Tue 19 Jul 2011 - 9:41

you have a point

obviously, more people play RTS than chess, so people tend to prefer some modicrum of luck and min/maxing
as to how much luck, that depdens on the audience

have you seen, that GW are selling re-rolls for warhammer tournaments now? IMO, that's a bit too much min/maxing

anyway, i have no problem with min/maxing being viable *as long as army selection does not completely eclipse in game strategy*. the problem with the original mordheim, however, was that some factions could min/max heavily and inexpensively (skaven) while others could not (middenheim)

another facet of a good game is UNIT VARIETY. in vanilla mordheim, 20 verminkun with 2 clubs and/or slings would beat anything. there was no counter to that. coreheim makes this a little better, but i will not at all say that coreheim has fixed this problem
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PostSubject: Re: What's the deal with Coreheim?   Tue 19 Jul 2011 - 10:31

Quote :
have you seen, that GW are selling re-rolls for warhammer tournaments now? IMO, that's a bit too much min/maxing


I get annoyed as much as the next person, but to be fair GW isn't selling rerolls. They're offering a reroll if you spend enough money on regular product. Its a promotion. They've done it before in the past, and I think the only reason people are making any stink about it, is because GW has been rolling ones lately in the PR department and the sharks smell blood in the water.
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PostSubject: Re: What's the deal with Coreheim?   Tue 19 Jul 2011 - 12:25

What? Anyone have a link to this reroll promotion? How is it working? That just seems... not right...
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PostSubject: Re: What's the deal with Coreheim?   Tue 19 Jul 2011 - 14:28


100 , re-roll a die at a GW Hobby Center
150 , free shipping to your house
200 , direct access to the Forgeworld area with no lines
250 , re-roll a die at a GW Official Tournament

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2011/07/40k-gamesday-spain-on-dice-and.html

promotion or sale... comes down to the same thing.
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PostSubject: Re: What's the deal with Coreheim?   Tue 19 Jul 2011 - 17:39

To those who say Coreheim has less flavor: do you think this is because of the basic rules or because of the warbands? Could it be solved by editing the warbands or converting other warbands to Coreheim?
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PostSubject: Re: What's the deal with Coreheim?   Wed 20 Jul 2011 - 6:00

Quote :
To those who say Coreheim has less flavor: do you think this is because of the basic rules or because of the warbands? Could it be solved by editing the warbands or converting other warbands to Coreheim?

I think its a combination of both.

The rules have been changed so that there's less variety.

The warbands have been changed so there's less variety.

There's only one magic table that everyone shares from, so there's a lack of variety right there.

Sure you can tweek and modify it to have more variety and flavor, but then it'd be easier to play vanilla with some house rules.
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PostSubject: Re: What's the deal with Coreheim?   Wed 20 Jul 2011 - 7:13

Daggermaw wrote:
Sure you can tweek and modify it to have more variety and flavor, but then it'd be easier to play vanilla with some house rules.

Good point. I'll have to discuss this with my gaming group.
Ugh, stupid decisions :p
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PostSubject: Re: What's the deal with Coreheim?   Wed 20 Jul 2011 - 10:19

[quote="Daggermaw"]
Quote :

There's only one magic table that everyone shares from, so there's a lack of variety right there.

Sure you can tweek and modify it to have more variety and flavor, but then it'd be easier to play vanilla with some house rules.

no that's not true, there are different magic lists in there.

also, the coreheim rules are easier and smoother, so i'd say if "easier" was your criterion, you'd better use the coreheim rules as your foundation

and to be clear, when you say less variety, what you really mean is "fewer options"
amongst the things left in coreheim, there is a good deal of variety. but its very true that the options have been cut back on. that's certainly not everyone's cup of tea. on the other hand, a lot of good games the player the choice between few, meaningful options rather than a multitude of less meaningful options (for example, under mordheim vanilla, every significant drawback can be negated by a skill or the like - not so with coreheim)

i guess that choice really dependes on whether you place a premium on army selection or in-game play. gw is the former. coreheim is also kind of the former, but a little better

i still think it would be possible to write a new mordheim ruleset that would be far better than both of these. but as it stands, i prefer coreheim by a fair margin
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PostSubject: Re: What's the deal with Coreheim?   Wed 20 Jul 2011 - 11:25

I never understood why you didn't go the extra length and add some unique background to the rules and then offer it as a stand-alone independent skirmish game with all the advantages to speak for it instead of always having to compare yourself with Mordheim, which is a battle you have to lose. A lot of games are (shamelessly) based on other systems, so why not cut the ties to Mordheim?

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PostSubject: Re: What's the deal with Coreheim?   Wed 20 Jul 2011 - 15:07

cianty wrote:
I never understood why you didn't go the extra length and add some unique background to the rules and then offer it as a stand-alone independent skirmish game with all the advantages to speak for it instead of always having to compare yourself with Mordheim, which is a battle you have to lose. A lot of games are (shamelessly) based on other systems, so why not cut the ties to Mordheim?

This ^^
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PostSubject: Re: What's the deal with Coreheim?   Wed 20 Jul 2011 - 15:40

cianty: to my knowledge this has never been discussed

i guess the reasons are:

(a) love of the fluff/ setting

(b) since they are not making money anyway, presenting it as a GW-mod will guarantee a constant influx of new players

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PostSubject: Re: What's the deal with Coreheim?   Thu 21 Jul 2011 - 18:25

Having seen a zillion posts about Coreheim from Asp, I have to say that the majority of "problems" his rules "fix" weren't broken in the first pace. He just often has a different way he want to do things (which often seem to trigger a cascade of changes needed to balance the first change). The system has a lot of fans, but I am frankly quite happy with Mordheim and have never been tempted to try Coreheim.

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PostSubject: Re: What's the deal with Coreheim?   Thu 21 Jul 2011 - 18:59

if you don't play tournaments and stuff like that how broken are the rules? I never really noticed anything being too strong or too weak. One in my old gaming group played with skaven and an other played with halflings and as far as I remeber they both won quite alot.

isn't the most important thing to have fun anyway and not worry about offical status and that kind of foolishness? Wink
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PostSubject: Re: What's the deal with Coreheim?   Thu 21 Jul 2011 - 21:08

Alex wrote:
if you don't play tournaments and stuff like that how broken are the rules? I never really noticed anything being too strong or too weak. One in my old gaming group played with skaven and an other played with halflings and as far as I remeber they both won quite alot.

isn't the most important thing to have fun anyway and not worry about offical status and that kind of foolishness? Wink

As you have noticed, the rules aren't broken. That is why this forum exists many, many years after GW stopped updating/pushing Mordheim. The rules for Mordheim are great and a lot of people are very happy with those rules. Yes there are some things that various people have minor/major issues with (duel wielding and armour being the big two, Nurgle's Rot being another) but they are not game breakers but more a matter of personal taste (e.g. some people want more weapon options to be viable so that they can have more variations in the miniatures that they create).

My gaming group loves Mordheim and we're not interested in changing game systems. We have introduced a minor number of house rules but have deliberately kept them to a minimum because we do not consider further changes are required and I don't want to set of a cascade of changes to keep the balance as mentioned by mweaver.

And yes. The most important thing is to have fun! Very Happy A lot of people are able to have fun with Mordheim. Others chose to have fun with Coreheim. At the end of the day it doesn't matter. Just have fun in your group!
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PostSubject: Re: What's the deal with Coreheim?   Fri 22 Jul 2011 - 15:09

I don't know how much more I can add to this thread, only that on this forum people seem to be more into Mordheim and on this forum http://www.warseer.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=97 people seem to be more into Coreheim.

But I'd say two things in parting :-)

(1) Why do you think that Coreheim has so many fans? Given its starting point, and the loyalty and resilience of GW gamers, it seems like Coreheim should be able to offer something that Mordheim doesn't for it to have any life at all.

(2) Thank you all for being civil and mature in discussing a topic that all too often makes people attack each other for no reason at all. Nice going you guys Smile
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PostSubject: Re: What's the deal with Coreheim?   Fri 22 Jul 2011 - 15:14

Yeah i've got nothing against Coreheim, and think it is a GREAT project, but as you can tell I can't mentally sit still long enough to NOT mess with rules/warbands/gear/etc. And Mordheim feels better for that for me. It's all preference.
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