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 Nippon Warband v.6 (Final)

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PostSubject: Re: Nippon Warband v.6 (Final)   Wed 25 Nov 2009 - 3:53

Jadex wrote:
First of all, I have no experience in creating warbands myself, so these are just my simple 2 cents... ; )

We where all there at some point mate. Doesnt take experience to come up with good ideas Very Happy

Quote :
First cent: I would make the Ronin 35gc: only 5gc more compared to human stats for +1Ws and the "expert swordsman/katanaman" skill is a bit low. 40 seems to much, but 35gc about right.

Ronin have been changed to 35gcs as above.

Quote :
Second cent: Maybe this is just taste, but I don't like warbands with all the heroes at Bs4... I see samurai fluffwise more combat oriented, so would make the Samurai have BS3 (not BS4 give them I4 instead of I3 and let them cost 40gc instead of 45gc. (since "human stats +1WS = 35gc", as for Averlanders Sergeant, Kisletive Esaul, Mercenary Champion, Osterlanders Bloodbrothers, Sister Superior)

AThe samurai trained with the bow almost as much as the katana (which they viewed in most cases as being part of their soul) the art was called kyujutsu. Personaly I agree there is a lot of potential for bad to occurr when 4 heroes have BS4, but considering they are alot more effective in combat then they are at range, they will normaly be moving at full or half speed towards the enemy and wont appreciate the full benefits. In regards to pricing, I much prefer the warband to suffer from high hero costs to truelly reflect the elitism of the samurai class

Quote :
All in all, it seems very close o being balanced and looks very nice!

Cheers mate Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Nippon Warband v.6 (Final)   Wed 25 Nov 2009 - 3:57

mrbretonnia wrote:

AThe samurai trained with the bow almost as much as the katana (which they viewed in most cases as being part of their soul) the art was called kyujutsu. Personaly I agree there is a lot of potential for bad to occurr when 4 heroes have BS4, but considering they are alot more effective in combat then they are at range, they will normaly be moving at full or half speed towards the enemy and wont appreciate the full benefits. In regards to pricing, I much prefer the warband to suffer from high hero costs to truelly reflect the elitism of the samurai class



Well, to reflect the Samurais ruperior training with ranged weapons, you could, instead of BS 4, give them access to special ranged weapons instead, just like Marksmen for mercs, who have the exact stats as warriors, but different gear.
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PostSubject: Re: Nippon Warband v.6 (Final)   Wed 25 Nov 2009 - 4:17

Opheliate wrote:

Well, to reflect the Samurais ruperior training with ranged weapons, you could, instead of BS 4, give them access to special ranged weapons instead, just like Marksmen for mercs, who have the exact stats as warriors, but different gear.

The thing is, what would I add? The only possible thing would be a composite bow of some sort, but i'd rather leave that out. Perhaps, lose the BS and instead add an additional 1 to initiative and add the following skill to the skill list;

kyujutsu - The samurai gains a +1 to hit with any bow (excluding crossbows) as long as he does not move.

Could get really intresting a couple of skills down the road allowing the samurai to either develop as a lethal warrior or a deadly ranged fighter. Infact, I think I prefer this "jack of all trades, master of one" outlook.

So my proposed changes are;

-1 Bs from samurai
+1 I to samurai
-5gcs samurai
addition of the kyujutsu skill to the nippon skill list.
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PostSubject: Re: Nippon Warband v.6 (Final)   Wed 25 Nov 2009 - 4:48

so when i say things they're wrong but when others point out the same things they're right? Rolling Eyes

longbow IS a piece of specialized equipment. merc heroes cannot use them, for example

i also discredit your argument that the list is worse than reiklanders, and ill show you why in my next post
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PostSubject: Re: Nippon Warband v.6 (Final)   Wed 25 Nov 2009 - 4:59

Daimyo, Longbow, Club 83 -> Get Quick Shot, Wyrdstone Hunter, Haggle
Samurai, Longbow, Club 63 -> Get Quick Shot, Wyrdstone Hunter, Haggle
Samurai, Longbow, Club 63 -> Get Quick Shot, Wyrdstone Hunter, Haggle
Ninja, Longbow, Club 68 -> Quick Shot + Sniper = EXPLOIT
Sagde, Club, 38
5 Ashigaru with two Clubs 155
1 Ashigary with one Club 28

11 Models
498gc

4 BS 4 Range 30" Shots each turn.
Sacrifice Ashigaru, stay back and shoot with heroes.
Get heroes Quick Shot and Moneymaking skills.
= Infinite gc, even if you loose matches.
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PostSubject: Re: Nippon Warband v.6 (Final)   Wed 25 Nov 2009 - 9:15

Well, to avoid repeating the equipment issue, have you considered (or allready made) a selection of Special Skills that ONLY the samurai can pick skills from when leveling up. Sorta like the Virtues form the Brettonian warband.

Maybe bonuses to Close combat, for those who want to specialise in that area, and so on and so forth.
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PostSubject: Re: Nippon Warband v.6 (Final)   Wed 25 Nov 2009 - 9:35

Given the importance that samurai placed on their swords (and to offset the potential "sit back and shoot" issue mentioned by Asp), I would rename the "Expert Swordsmen" rule to "Soul of the Samurai" - leave the special reroll in it but add that all Samurai begin the game with a Katana (and increase cost to reflect this) and cannot participate in a game unless they have one (so a Samurai that loses his equipment will not fight again until another katana is found for him).

If you're already paying for the katana (and can't sell them), it would be a waste of resources to put the samurai in a place that they'd only be shooting.

My two cents.
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PostSubject: Re: Nippon Warband v.6 (Final)   Wed 25 Nov 2009 - 12:11

Asp wrote:

Get heroes Quick Shot and Moneymaking skills.
= Infinite gc, even if you loose matches.

I see the point here, and the Samurai do have a large range of skills to choose from .... I'd almost suggest dropping Academic and Speed (This makes the Ninja abit more unique in his skills also).
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PostSubject: Re: Nippon Warband v.6 (Final)   Wed 25 Nov 2009 - 12:48

I really like how this warband is developing .
To all those saying that they are overpowered compared to the rulebook warbands: Skaven are certainly stronger than this guys from nippon, and both ghoul-heavy undead and sisters of sigmar with their +1 strength hammers and slings for all of their models can be built into stronger warbands.
So my point is that the original warbands vary a great deal in strength, these guys seem to be on the strong side but not overpowered.

The stat lines of the heroes are strong but still o.k., they are good offensively but like all humans suffer defensively. By all means keep them.

But i do have one point of criticism: The spell list seems to be too strong - especially the earth spell. D3 good extra models seem to be too strong for an auto cast spell, both zombies and giant rats are weaker stat wise. Maybe you could alter it into summoning only one extra model?
The casting values for the other spells seem to be slightly on the lower side, too.
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PostSubject: Re: Nippon Warband v.6 (Final)   Wed 25 Nov 2009 - 14:52

Quote :
so when i say things they're wrong but when others point out the same things they're right?

Only because you fail to justify anything.

Quote :
The boring warband you made

I dont know how people play over wherever you are, but in Australia you get a kick in the nuts for playing overpowered boring stuff like that. In our group, youd be told to change or go home.

Quote :
Well, to avoid repeating the equipment issue, have you considered (or allready made) a selection of Special Skills that ONLY the samurai can pick skills from when leveling up. Sorta like the Virtues form the Brettonian warband.

Maybe bonuses to Close combat, for those who want to specialise in that area, and so on and so forth.

All the sword techniques focus on combat and are samurai only Wink

Quote :
Given the importance that samurai placed on their swords (and to offset the potential "sit back and shoot" issue mentioned by Asp), I would rename the "Expert Swordsmen" rule to "Soul of the Samurai" - leave the special reroll in it but add that all Samurai begin the game with a Katana (and increase cost to reflect this) and cannot participate in a game unless they have one (so a Samurai that loses his equipment will not fight again until another katana is found for him).

If you're already paying for the katana (and can't sell them), it would be a waste of resources to put the samurai in a place that they'd only be shooting.

I think I'll include that. It adds a bit more flavour and prevents from asshat lists as above (do people honestly power game mordheim???)

Quote :
I really like how this warband is developing .
To all those saying that they are overpowered compared to the rulebook warbands: Skaven are certainly stronger than this guys from nippon, and both ghoul-heavy undead and sisters of sigmar with their +1 strength hammers and slings for all of their models can be built into stronger warbands.
So my point is that the original warbands vary a great deal in strength, these guys seem to be on the strong side but not overpowered.

I agree completely, nearly every warband can be a strong one if you build it strongly.

Quote :
But i do have one point of criticism: The spell list seems to be too strong - especially the earth spell. D3 good extra models seem to be too strong for an auto cast spell, both zombies and giant rats are weaker stat wise. Maybe you could alter it into summoning only one extra model?
The casting values for the other spells seem to be slightly on the lower side, too.

Ive been thinking this as well, and will address it when I get home.

Quote :
I see the point here, and the Samurai do have a large range of skills to choose from .... I'd almost suggest dropping Academic and Speed (This makes the Ninja abit more unique in his skills also).


I see room for dropping speed purely for making the ninja more unique, but I feel like keeping academic for the feel (Even if it does leave from for dickheadry).
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PostSubject: Re: Nippon Warband v.6 (Final)   Wed 25 Nov 2009 - 16:05

I don't know much about warband balance but...
Surely the Ninja should have access to Throwing Knives (Counts as Shurikens, Throwing Knives, whatever).
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PostSubject: Re: Nippon Warband v.6 (Final)   Wed 25 Nov 2009 - 17:42

someone2040 wrote:
I don't know much about warband balance but...
Surely the Ninja should have access to Throwing Knives (Counts as Shurikens, Throwing Knives, whatever).

Agree!
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PostSubject: Re: Nippon Warband v.6 (Final)   Wed 25 Nov 2009 - 18:38

I'll just throw a couple cents in: I like it. It looks like just enough character to be good but not overpowered. I think my orcs could kick their butt Wink

Asp wrote:
....
4 BS 4 Range 30" Shots each turn.
Sacrifice Ashigaru, stay back and shoot with heroes.
Get heroes Quick Shot and .....
meh, 12 18" slings are scarier IMHO. All you need is a little bit of terrain to destroy shooter warbands.

Asp wrote:
Moneymaking skills
= Infinite gc, even if you loose matches.

Couldn't you do that with just about any warband with 5 starting heros?
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PostSubject: Re: Nippon Warband v.6 (Final)   Wed 25 Nov 2009 - 18:51

Ashton wrote:

Couldn't you do that with just about any warband with 5 starting heros?

I think its the Academic skills that allow it, which not many can have on 4 heroes ... I understand the view of Samurai being well educated, but so are High Elves and I don't think they all get academic.

I don't quite see Haggling, Treasure Hunting, Magic Casting Samurai myself ... which leaves ... Battle Tongue? (only available to the Warband leader anyway).
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PostSubject: Re: Nippon Warband v.6 (Final)   Thu 26 Nov 2009 - 0:29

Good point. That's what I get for playing Skaven and Orcs Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Nippon Warband v.6 (Final)   Thu 26 Nov 2009 - 1:15

SO I guess the big questions are;

Should samurai lose the BS4? Personaly I think its fine at the cost, but others seem firm that 4 guys with BS4 is OP.

Should samurai lose academic? it seems the general concensus is yes

any other pick bits?

P.S. yes the ninja will get throwing stars Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Nippon Warband v.6 (Final)   Thu 26 Nov 2009 - 1:35

mrbretonnia wrote:
Should samurai lose the BS4? Personaly I think its fine at the cost, but others seem firm that 4 guys with BS4 is OP.

Maybe they don't get access to Long Bows? Did medieval Japan have an equivalent of longbows? Short Bows maybe (Samurai where more horse archers to my knowledge) ... with that I think maybe BS4 might be alittle more acceptable.

Quote :
Should samurai lose academic? it seems the general concensus is yes

Well I'd say yes, none of the Academic skills really have much Samurai flavour to me and it'll help versus power play ... the warband has two other Academic capable heroes which I think is fair.

Quote :
any other pick bits?

Other than the power of the magic which has been mentioned, the only other thing is the skill 'Sniper' which when doing my Shadow Warrior revisit I brought up as rather powerful and was told it was errata'ed to help that.

Here was my rewrite based on the errata.

If Hidden, a warrior with this skill may shoot or cast spells and still remain Hidden if they manage to take the target out of action, otherwise the target and any within 2” of them may make an immediate Initiative test in order to spot the Sniper, in which case he no longer remains hidden.


Quote :
P.S. yes the ninja will get throwing stars Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Nippon Warband v.6 (Final)   Thu 26 Nov 2009 - 1:57

Nah the samurai used yumi's which are effectively longbows (300+ft maximum range). I really think the final thing that needs sorting is the BS4. Is it acceptable with longbows. Personaly I think it is, but there are other who dont. I am happy to drop it for I4 and add the following skill;

kyujutsu - The samurai gains a +1 to hit with any bow (excluding crossbows) The samurai also is treated as having the trick shooter skill. These two effects only apply when the model does not move.

I think its on the strong side, but the big downside of not being able to move when being equiped with and having great skill with a melee weapon. What are peoples views on this? (im not to sure on this skill anyways).

EDIT: increased a few spell casting values. If anyone has any more problems, please speak up so they may be addressed Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Nippon Warband v.6 (Final)   Thu 26 Nov 2009 - 3:10

+1BS is fine imho. Just drop academic skills for them and it will work, don't add too many extra skills.
The simpler, the better Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Nippon Warband v.6 (Final)   Thu 26 Nov 2009 - 3:18

Alright, cheers mate Smile will drop the skill and leave everything as it is now. How does everyone like the list now. I think it looks great and Im really thankful for all of those who commented Smile.

If anyone wants to ever give it a shot, eurekamini has a great range;

http://eurekamin.com.au/index.php?cPath=87_126_176&sort=3a

prices are in AUS $, so its slightly less then a USD.
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PostSubject: Re: Nippon Warband v.6 (Final)   Thu 26 Nov 2009 - 6:38

BS3 or BS4, in the end it's up to you, the maker, so "just do it"

I still have a few comments on the spell list, though...

The Power of the Elements

1. Fire (8+)

By
invoking the element of fire, a number of balls of fire begin to circle
around the Sage before launching of towards his enemies. This attack
has a range of 12” and causes D3 S4 hits which cannot cause critical
hits.


Seems rather powerfull at first sight... maybe make it D3 S3 hits? Or one S4? Add LoS?


2. Water (9+)

Calling
upon the element of water, the moisture coagulates to transform the
ground from cracked pavement to a marsh. A single model within 12” may
be affected by this spell. The effected model’s movement is reduced to
1” a turn, which cannot be increased for running or charging. This
spell remains in effect and only ends if the sage loses line of sight
to the target, engaged in combat, attempts to cast another spell or the
sage and the target are more then 12” apart.


3. Earth (Auto)

Summoning
the might of the element of earth, animated rock golems rise from the
ground to serve and protect the sage. A single golem is summoned with
the following characteristics;



M

Ws

Bs

S

T

W

I

A

LD

3

3

3

4

4

2

1

1

10

This
models start the game within 6” of the sage and cannot move further
then 12” away from the sage or they are removed as causalities. It is
completely immune to psychology and does not count as casualties for
rout test purposes.


Auto spell which casts a golem like this... Mmmm, that seems really
powerfull to me! Basically you get a golem EVERY turn... An infinite
number of golems! I think spells should never be auto.
- If it's "auto", make it a one time cast only spell
- If not "cast only once", at least make it that you can only have one golem at any instant.
- I would add a certain difficulty, make the spellcaster pass an Ld(?)
test in the recovery phase to keep the golem alive, have the golem lose
one Strangth,...
Anyway: as it is now, this must be the most powerfull spell ever


4. Wind (8+)

Bidding
the element of wind to aid him, the sage directs the wind in powerful
gusts. This spell has a range of 12”and affects a single model. The
affected model is pushed D6” directly away from the sage note: this
spell can be used to push models off buildings.


Cool
...And receive a S2 hit when knocked against a wall!

5. Ether (6+)

The
sage shouts out in a large, booming voice ancient proverbs of wisdom
inspiring all those around him with confidence. All friendly models
within 6” are immune to fear until the start of your next shooting
phase.


6. Thought (8+)

Bending
the element of thought to his will, the sage instils horrific visions
of doom upon his foes. The Sage causes fear until the sage attempts to
cast another spell, is knocked down or stunned.


8+ seems a bit hard to me, no?
You could make it less "individual", maybe by making 3(?) enemy models within 12"(?) have every of your units cause fear to them? The enemy model may pass a LD test to ignore the effect (and doesn't work on 'immunit to Psychology' guys...).


Nice ideas in the list, but there's still room for improvement.

All in all I have to say it's fun working with everyone on your Nippon warband
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PostSubject: Re: Nippon Warband v.6 (Final)   Thu 26 Nov 2009 - 7:21

Quote :

I still have a few comments on the spell list, though...

Oh man, i agree with evry singel comment!
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PostSubject: Re: Nippon Warband v.6 (Final)   Thu 26 Nov 2009 - 9:46

really, you made a not-very thought through warband and I pointed it out - you could reverse the premises and say that you yourself failed to apply reasoning Sad

personally, id keep it very simple
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PostSubject: Re: Nippon Warband v.6 (Final)   Thu 26 Nov 2009 - 10:09

Modelled on Mercenaries:

1 Daimyou
60gc
20xp
Combat, Shooting, Academic, Strength, Speed, Special
4 4 4 3 3 1 4 1 8
Leader

0-2 Samurai
35gc
6xp
4 4 3 3 3 1 3 1 7
Combat, Shooting, Strength, Special

0-2 Shinobi
15gc
0xp
Combat, Shooting, Speed
4 2 2 3 3 1 3 1 6

-----

0-2 Ninja 35gc
4 4 3 3 3 1 4 1 7

0-5 Naginata 35gc
4 4 3 3 3 1 3 1 7

Ashigaru 25gc
4 3 3 3 3 1 3 1 7



HEROES LIST
Dagger
Club
Axe
Sword
Katana
Spear
Halberd
Great Weapon

Bow
Long Bow

Light Armour
Heavy Armour
Samurai Armour
Helmet

NINJA LIST
Dagger
Axe
Sword
Fighting Claws

Short Bow
Bow
Throwing Stars
Blowpipie

Light Armour

ASHIGARU LIST
Dagger
Club
Axe
Sword

Bow
Long Bow
Crossbow
Handgun

Light Armour
Helmet

NAGINATA LIST
Dagger
Club
Axe
Sword
Spear
Halberd
Great Weapon
Naginata (Great Weapon that can parry 15gc)

Bow

Light Armour
Heavy Armour
Helmet
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PostSubject: Re: Nippon Warband v.6 (Final)   Thu 26 Nov 2009 - 13:18

I'm not sure 'strip away everything unique until its more bland than you human mercenaries' is the best choice either Asp.

Shinobi with WS and BS 2? Ld 6 ... and worse than Ninjas? Isn't a Shinobi an elite Ninja? Perhaps Ninja Apprentice would of been a better name?
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