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smokezombie
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PostSubject: Seeing the light.   Mon 30 May 2011 - 9:19

Hey fellas.

Is there any provision for a pious witch hunter to learn prayrs? Or has anyone made any house rules to cover this?
I ask because anyone (except WH) with acess to the academic skill list can learn to cast spells ( if they have a magic tome) and just wondered if anyone had hought of this for prayrs.

also.... if someone had a tome of magic and took arcane liore as a skill ( than learnt a spell ) and subsequently was robbed ( lost his tome ) could he learn further spells, or would he have to get another tome of magic?
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PostSubject: Re: Seeing the light.   Mon 30 May 2011 - 10:50

Witch Hunters hunt Wizards and Witches!

A Hero needs to keep a hold on the Tome of Magic to be able to keep casting spells. Otherwise you could buy one, use it, and then flog it! Wink

Tome of Magic doesn't give you access to just any spells. There is only limited knowledge contained in the book.

Prayer books don't teach any Hero to become divine interpreters. Holy Tomes +1 to the score when determining whether he (or she) can recite a prayer successfully or not.

If you want your Heroes to pray, then you could do a lot worse than to check out this article which I cranked out last month: Miracle Workers

If it is further knowledge your Heroes seek then I guess that we need more rule for rare books in Mordheim campaigns!

Regards,

Werekin
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PostSubject: Re: Seeing the light.   Mon 30 May 2011 - 11:23

Thanks Werekin.

The hero with the tome of magic was from a friends Merc warband... not my holy and rightouss witch hunters. We have allready returned a tome of magic to the local chapterhouse for destruction.
TBH the hero in question didn't actually get robbed I was just wondering what would happen if he did ( and hoping he would get robbed Suspect )

My question about a witch hunter being able to learn prayrs came about after rereading the Mathias Thulmann book "Witch killer" ( C..L.Werner) and the witch hunter Peder Haussner's protective prayr to sigmar is answered.
I just thought it would be cool Suspect

I'll check your article out shortly. Thanks
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PostSubject: Re: Seeing the light.   Mon 30 May 2011 - 13:41

Hmm. If the Witch hunters hates spell casters and learns spells, would he reroll all hits against himself? One way or another, he'd have some serious self-loathing issues.
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PostSubject: Re: Seeing the light.   Wed 1 Jun 2011 - 11:39

The reasoning behind the functionality of divine magic as opposed to arcane magic is a headf**k. Get a copy of 'Realms of Sorcery' if you wanna blow your mind with mystical lore!

Sigmarites are all screw-ups man anyway. Don't feel too bad for 'em. Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Seeing the light.   Tue 7 Jun 2011 - 18:26

werekin wrote:
Witch Hunters huntA Hero needs to keep a hold on the Tome of Magic to be able to keep casting spells.
Werekin
Is this in the rule-book or an FAQ somewhere? I can't seem to find this rule in my copy. As far as I can see, selling the book will only mean that you can't learn any more - not that you can't still cast the ones you have already learned.

I do remember coming across something that said that you can't hand the book to someone else and let *them* learn a spell too, but I can't seem to find that FAQ either.
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PostSubject: Re: Seeing the light.   Thu 9 Jun 2011 - 14:22

I cannot find anything to FAQ it. If a book or other item which provides a magic effect (in Warhammer) then it has always been the case that any benefit would be lost without it.

The way I see Tome of Magic as being treated is that the spell in not learned 'off by heart'. The warrior reads the spell from the book. No book, no spell.
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PostSubject: Re: Seeing the light.   Thu 9 Jun 2011 - 20:27

But in this case the thing doesn't provide a magical effect as such - it just lets you have more options for what you spend a skill on. And spending a skill is, I think, intended to model the effort of learning something by heart. Otherwise when you learned something like Sprint or Quickshot or Haggle you would have to consult with some kind of athletics, ballistics, or economics tome and that is not the case.

None of the other books say you lose access to what you have spent the skills on i.e. the Alchemists Notebook doesn't say you lose access to your academic skills if you lose the notebook and the training manual doesn't say you lose access to the Combat Skills if you lose the manual. Similarly, I don't think you should lose access to your lesser magic skills if you lose the tome.
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PostSubject: Re: Seeing the light.   Thu 9 Jun 2011 - 20:36

I always saw that the player used the book, and then it was "burned" into his memory. No one else can use the book, because it's power has been transferred. Although, the "needing it with you" does make sense. Never come up in our campaigns, I think.
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PostSubject: Re: Seeing the light.   Fri 10 Jun 2011 - 4:12

My take on this is that they learn a spell from the book by heart and could still cast the one they learnt even if they lost the book. They would however need to keep hold of the book in order to learn any other spells.
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PostSubject: Re: Seeing the light.   Fri 10 Jun 2011 - 5:19

smokezombie's opinion matches mine, so he is obviously a person of high intelligence and keen perception Razz.
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PostSubject: Re: Seeing the light.   Fri 10 Jun 2011 - 6:38

I was about to say the same about you fella Laughing

On topic, with regards to Prayrs... not spells, do you think there is room in the game for something like the following.

academic skill- Pious.
The warrior has "seen the light" and developed a fanatical belief in Sigmars powers.Any warrior from a good human warband with this skill may learn prayrs from the prayrs of sigmar list if he/she owns the diary of Lord Volkmar

equipment- "the personal diary of Lord Volkmar" 200+d6x25 gc rare 12
This is a book containing the personal thoughts of the mighty Volkmar , his journy to spiritual enlightenment ( and many comical pictures he drew of sigmar and a female dwarf Shocked only joking ) and his thoughts on beseeching Sigmars aid.

( I am sure I have got his name and title wrong and the wording for these is a bit pony but....it's just the seed of an idea)

Esentially just a tomb of magic and the skill arcane law. but for prayrs. Which I was trying to get at initially.
Is it just a bit silly? Does it make witch hunters and the sisters too powerfull?

I still haven't read your article werekin... please don't hit me.
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PostSubject: Re: Seeing the light.   Fri 10 Jun 2011 - 7:36

Of all the warbands I don't think it would affect either Sisters or Witch Hunters much because they already get priests. What I would be most concerned with is everyone else because where the unbalancing would come from is stacking the Sigmar buffs with the 'Lesser' Magic buffs or the Taal prayers or what-have-you. It is 0130 so I am not going to investigate just at the moment and it would probably really need playtesting anyway.

My gut is telling me that the skill will most likely need something like 'can't be taken if the warband includes spell-users of any kind' or something. But that might just be gas. *Shrug*.
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PostSubject: Re: Seeing the light.   Fri 10 Jun 2011 - 8:03

Check out 'Holy Skills' from the Relics of the Crusades setting it has some interesting ideas along those lines.

The game balance of having Lesser Magic combined with the prayers thing. This has been possible for years with the addition of Warrior Priest and Holy Man Hired Swords.
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PostSubject: Re: Seeing the light.   Fri 10 Jun 2011 - 11:30

What is the alchemists notebook and the combat training manual you spoke of Lord 0!?

This trouble with the Tome of Magic it seems is this issue of passing around between Heroes in a warband to allow each one to learn spells... This gets silly as you'll be fielding a full squad of hedge wizards! I agree it seems fair that the spell learned by the warrior from his Tome sticks in his head if he sells the book and then he cannot learn another one from it.

The idea of having pious warriors is not a bad one. I don't see that anyone but a priest would be able to call down the level of power in terms of chanting prayers. Not all can claim to be a vessel of their gods divine will... Hence the Priests are treated as Heroes as befits their station.

Sigmar's judgement is meted out by Templars of Sigmar. As such those special skills available to SIsters of Sigmar ought to be actively applied to Heroes in a Witch Hunters warband. I cannot recall if this was an observation made previously by fellow Mordheimers but I cannot right now think of a more gross oversight in the core rules! I'd call it madness.

What's the full list of 'Tomes' found in Mordheim then guys?

Halfling Cookbook, Tome of Magic, Book of the Dead, Holy Tome, Liber Chaotica...
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PostSubject: Re: Seeing the light.   Fri 10 Jun 2011 - 16:21

The alchemists notebook is found on getting 22222 for exploration and the training manual is found on getting 555555, both in the original Mordheim.

I am pretty sure there was an FAQ that said that only one model could get the benefit from any given tome of magic. I am pretty sure of this because in the before-before time when it came out and we were playing in the stores I had a Marienburger warband hand one around, and by the time the next campaign started this was FAQed out. You couldn't even give it to a wizard to learn the free spell and *then* give it to someone with the skill to learn 'lesser' magic.
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PostSubject: Re: Seeing the light.   Tue 14 Jun 2011 - 14:51

Ah yes. Thought they sounded very famliar. Another tome would be Hammer of Witches? Bringing the book count to 8.

The idea of a tome of magic only working for one warrior sounds as if the latest owner is soiling the pages as he goes! Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Seeing the light.   Wed 15 Jun 2011 - 2:59

werekin wrote:
Sigmar's judgement is meted out by Templars of Sigmar. As such those special skills available to SIsters of Sigmar ought to be actively applied to Heroes in a Witch Hunters warband. I cannot recall if this was an observation made previously by fellow Mordheimers but I cannot right now think of a more gross oversight in the core rules! I'd call it madness..

Well, *I* was saying that you ought to be able to learn a SoS skill at the Temple location, remember? P-Raise Sigmar! cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Seeing the light.   Wed 15 Jun 2011 - 12:49

Grab yourself a copy of this Hammer of Witches tome and go round hating all the heretics who play Mordheim. LoL.

Sigmar worship will probably just get you lynched in Marienburg. Wink

The way I see the SoS special skills is that they are very specialist indeed. Going to church is not enough. A Hero would have to be a zealot indeed before attracting this level of favour.

By my reckoning there is room for 3 'new' rare tomes to be discovered in the Bazaar of Books in Marienburg...

Obviously there is Liber Malefic. Wink

The Loathsome Ratmen and All Their Vile Kin is an infamous publication you might expect Heroes to stumble across... and everyone would appreciate another way to get the edge over Skaven warbands. LoL.

Does anyone know of or have any preferred favourite fictional tomes?

I'd personally like to see some kind of profane book that teaches the reader about dark magic!

There was another Liber mentioned in Sandy Mitchell's Blood on the Reik trilogy... It was Liber something and argh I can't remember its name when the author himself even mentioned it to me in a conversation we had at BL Live... Anyone that knows the title of the tome will win an amazing surprise prize. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Seeing the light.   Wed 15 Jun 2011 - 13:35

There's also "The Life of Sigmar", and the Liber Mortis and Liber Bubonicus.

What's that trilogy you're talking about? I only know the Blood on the Reik artbook.

EDIT: There's "Armies of the Hammer - The Forgotten Crusades" mentioned in the artbook.

Others mentioned elsewhere include (mostly translated from German sources, so not sure if they are the correct English titles): Old Reikhard's Almanac Part II, a treatise on history , The Deeds of Emperor Magnus , The True and Bloody Stories of the War against Araby, The Bloody and Disgusting Story of Vampires, The True and Gruesome Story of the Great Plague, all written by Reikhard von Gotham (source: Emprie Army Book 6th edition), The Glorious Adventures of Gunter Friesheim, Memories of Lustria by Janah Honez, My Time with the Dwarfs by Emmerschein von Mirrenburg (all Army Book Dogs of War 5th edition), The Art of Siege by Albrecht von Tissenbeck (Warhammer Siege), In the Garden of the Gods by Cyrston von Danling (found in a Lustria expansion, apparently), The Fall of Kavzar, a fairy tale about the creation of Skaven (Skaven Army Book 7th edition), and of course the Deus Sigmar prayers.
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PostSubject: Re: Seeing the light.   Wed 15 Jun 2011 - 14:52

Blimey that is fair list Sascha! Be curious to read a copy of 'In the Garden of the Gods'. Wink

Nathan Long mentioned these two in his latest Ulrika the Vampire novel 'Bloodforged'...

The Merman's Daughter – an opera in Seven Acts
Bare Before the Gods – the Dances of Darkest Ind


Any fancy their Hero to learn how to learn a fighting dance or sing a maritime concerto?

There was series of novels by Sandy Mitchell that tied into the 2nd edition Warhammer Roleplay releases. They were called Death's Messenger, Death's City, and Death's Legacy. Collectively they are known as 'Blood on the Reik' trilogy. There is also a BL sourcebook by the same name. A good part of the 2nd and 3rd novels in the .BotR trilogy are set in Marienburg. Worth checking out. I'm lending them to geekgirl this weekend.

It's dangerous to be touting too many exclusive publications that are such heinously profane tomes as Liber Chaotica, Liber Necris, and Liber Bubonicus. There has to be some kind of limitations (or not!?) on the amount of mass destruction artefacts turning up in campaigns away from the military battlefield!!
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PostSubject: Re: Seeing the light.   Wed 15 Jun 2011 - 14:57

Yeah, I think all the Liber ones are rather unique pieces. Speaking of these, there's also the Darkhold, book of the Disciples of the Red Redemption.

Yeah, Garden of the Gods must be good, it's got some stuff on hot amazons as well, I think Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Seeing the light.   Wed 15 Jun 2011 - 15:01

Anyways, finally found a fairly comprehensive list on Lexicanum: http://whfb.lexicanum.de/wiki/Ber%C3%BChmte_B%C3%BCcher_der_Warhammerwelt

It seems to include all the famous books published in the Warhammer world. Unfortunately, it's German, but some titles look like they will be the same in English or are actually English.
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PostSubject: Re: Seeing the light.   Thu 16 Jun 2011 - 5:07

Grr, trying to find the English analog on the site, and having trouble.

For those interested, you put "Berühmte Bücher der Warhammerwelt" in a babelfish translator, you get "Famous books of the being hammer world".
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PostSubject: Re: Seeing the light.   Thu 16 Jun 2011 - 12:44

I would like a translation of the page about Grimoire Daemonicus.

Anyone able to do that? Preferably somebody German speaking!
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