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 Dwarf Treasure Hunters--Help!

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JPRoth1980
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PostSubject: Dwarf Treasure Hunters--Help!   Sun 22 May 2011 - 21:39

Hello! And something of an introduction.

I am a Dwarf fanatic, background-wise. I love them in all of GW's settings. However, the only success I've ever had with Dwarfs has been in Blood Bowl, go figure.

There is talk of starting up a Mordheim league again in my neck of the woods, and I'd really like to bring a decent-looking, somewhat effective Dwarf warband. Unfortunately, I'm at a loss of where to start. I know the ground rules of not taking much equipment and going as much for numbers as possible, but any other help would be more than appreciated.

I do have a very nice model I'd like to use as the Noble, but he's ludicrously expensive with a gromril hammer (I know, they're great), shield, helmet, and full gromril armor. It's the old Maxmini Dwarf hero before it was discontinued with a sculpted-on beard. And I may just be dreaming here--that is a seriously expensive guy to put on the table for a 6" charge.

Help, please!
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf Treasure Hunters--Help!   Mon 23 May 2011 - 4:11

You don't have to start with max models... I knew a guy who'd run a warband with 1 noble, 2 beardlings, and 6 suits of grom armor. He'd take one beardling casualty and run away. You play enough games, you get lots of money from the free Wyrdstone rule, and a huge underdog bonus. Not a very fun way of playing if you ask me, but, just goes to show that there are more than one way to play.

My philosophy is to start with max heroes and at least 1-2 hench, each in their own henchmen group. Heroes = income, and you need henchmen to roll "That Lad's Got Talent" in order to max out to 6 heroes. If you're lucky, it will happen early. If not, spend your income on steadily increasing hench.

Making them fun: Hard to say. What warbands have you enjoyed in the past?
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JPRoth1980
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf Treasure Hunters--Help!   Mon 23 May 2011 - 5:24

StyrofoamKing wrote:
You don't have to start with max models... I knew a guy who'd run a warband with 1 noble, 2 beardlings, and 6 suits of grom armor. He'd take one beardling casualty and run away. You play enough games, you get lots of money from the free Wyrdstone rule, and a huge underdog bonus. Not a very fun way of playing if you ask me, but, just goes to show that there are more than one way to play.

Yep, I've read all about that way of playing. It works, and it's fairly effective, but it winds up feeling like abusing the system for a mechanical benefit. Personally, I'd rather not do it.

StyrofoamKing wrote:
My philosophy is to start with max heroes and at least 1-2 hench, each in their own henchmen group. Heroes = income, and you need henchmen to roll "That Lad's Got Talent" in order to max out to 6 heroes. If you're lucky, it will happen early. If not, spend your income on steadily increasing hench.

Indeed, that's the basics. However, how do you play Dwarfs? They're not fast enough to really be that effective at close combat and their shooting is expensive, inaccurate, and immobile. It seems the thing to do, if you don't want to simply use what amounts to a glitch in the rules to get on an equal footing, would be to try to countercharge behind a wall of expendable Beardlings, but even attempting to get all four heroes (with equipment, mind you) leaves little left for anything else.

StyrofoamKing wrote:
Making them fun: Hard to say. What warbands have you enjoyed in the past?

I tend to enjoy faster forces, but as I stated, I really like the background of Dwarfs. I just do not feel like being forced to abuse the game system in order to eventually be put on an equal playing field.
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf Treasure Hunters--Help!   Mon 23 May 2011 - 6:25

Dwarf warbands are one of those choices in which you just like having a bunch of sturdy, angry dudes to work with, if you play purely to win and aren't as interested in fluff and aesthetics I could see a problem with these guys.

One of the players in our upcoming campaign has gone down the dwarf route, he has opted for the sturdy well equipped few, I can't say how well they will fair until we are stuck in but I think you also have to consider your opponents. A small group of well equipped dwarfs are going to run into trouble if they are mainly fighting big, fast warbands purely down to odds, luckily for him our mix of warbands is generally on the average speed and size so I think he has a good chance, plus it look awesome having a core of grim bearded half pints waddling forward with angry red faces!


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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf Treasure Hunters--Help!   Mon 23 May 2011 - 8:58

After a bit of soul-searching, I think this is the warband I'd start with. All four heroes and disposable Beardlings to abuse the first few games until we get some money to start expanding. I really don't think there's another way to make Dwarfs work, although I'd be happy to hear about it!

Dwarf Noble
-Gromril Hammer
-Shield
-Helmet
-Gromril Armor

(He's expensive, but I like the model. And that's half the fun!)

Dwarf Engineer
-Crossbow

Dwarf Troll Slayer
-Dwarf Axe
-Gromril Hammer

Dwarf Troll Slayer
-Dwarf Axe
-Gromril Hammer

(These guys are my primary beatsticks, not that I plan on using them much early on. Not entirely certain about the Dwarf axes, but they're at least a little appropriate.)

Beardling
-Hammer

Beardling
-Hammer

(Go forth and die for the Clan, me lads! Sigh.)

Stash: 4 gromril hammers and 1 gc.

(So that when I start affording Warriors, they'll at least have decent weapons.)

The goal would be to hire a few Thunderers and a handful of Warriors and along the way pick up a Hired Sword Troll Slayer. Assuming I can get through the first few games, I think these guys could be a lot of fun, but I see inevitable problems against the ubiquitous Skaven lists. Not necessarily sling-spam, but they are much faster and have some very effective close combat capabilities.
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf Treasure Hunters--Help!   Mon 23 May 2011 - 11:09

Your starting list seems handicapped by WYSIWIG. You're right that your
Noble is expensive. He's costing your warband a lot in resources. Check
my roster for comparison:

http://tabletopgeeks.com/mordheim-roster-builder/?warband=dwarftreasurehunters&blogID=140&filename=Dwarves10.xml

This starting list comes with 9 models, so you only route after 3 OoA
results, giving you a chance to actually win your first game. I just tried them out vs. a starting Norse band with 3 wolves and 12 models. I was admittedly helped out by a few ill-advised diving charges from my opponent, but the little bearded guys are rock hard. His Jarl managed to take out a Slayer, but that was it. If you can get into an alley or otherwise confined space -- eliminating their numbers advantage -- you've got a real shot.

Otherwise you're right: start off with the inexpensive beardlings out front. They take the charge, you take the countercharge. The measly 6" charge range doesn't matter when you're that close. All your guys wade in.

As for "inaccurate" shooting, remember that BS is not the only stat that matters. Toughness is huge. It makes dwarves a viable shooting band, able to stand up to barrages from Reiklanders and Dark Elves alike. Remember, a crossbow bolt travels much faster than a dwarf, and the fact that your guys are "immobile" doesn't really matter. You're playing dwarves. Your enemy is supposed to come to you. Mow them down as they advance. The Engineer skill should be a big help there.

For my part, I plan to max out thunderers as quickly as possible. Yeah, it's crappy for those games when you need to run out onto the board and grab loot, but for open field fighting it's a game plan that can win.
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf Treasure Hunters--Help!   Mon 23 May 2011 - 11:26

DRD1812 wrote:
Your starting list seems handicapped by WYSIWIG. You're right that your
Noble is expensive. He's costing your warband a lot in resources..

The Noble is expensive, true, but he's also the only viable way to get a decently-equipped Dwarf in the roster. Obviously the big worry is losing him in the first few games, since it'd be a huge blow, but I should be able to be cowardly enough to avoid it.

Also, I am intentionally crippling myself with WYSIWYG, and any league we'd be running would be much the same. If a model is wearing a helmet, he should have a helmet, and so on. That's just the way I roll.

I'm really not a fan of axes, though, rules-wise. Am I missing something that makes them useful over the cheaper and always-nice hammers?
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf Treasure Hunters--Help!   Mon 23 May 2011 - 11:53

Concerning Axes: The crit chart is better. Also, it's more dwarfy.

But since you're tied to your Lord's armor layout, you can still get up to 8 models if you just give all your heroes (including the lord) a cheap mace and dagger combo, throw a crossbow onto your engineer, and then get 2 warriors and 2 beardlings dual wielding daggers. If you don't have the models to WYSIWYG that, ditch the crossbow for added axes.

Having a stash of gromril clubs doesn't save you much money. In fact, since you're taking fewer henchman (and thereby giving yourself fewer chances for "lad's got talent") you may be costing yourself money. Not to mention the lost XP.
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf Treasure Hunters--Help!   Mon 23 May 2011 - 12:09

DRD1812 wrote:
Concerning Axes: The crit chart is better. Also, it's more dwarfy.

Oh, you're using those. We more or less decided against them as a part of the "make armor actually worthwhile" initiative.

DRD1812 wrote:
Having a stash of gromril clubs doesn't save you much money. In fact, since you're taking fewer henchman (and thereby giving yourself fewer chances for "lad's got talent") you may be costing yourself money. Not to mention the lost XP.

This is true, and something to think about. However, I really, really dislike going double-daggers on anything, simply because it winds up being 2 wasted GC at all times. Perhaps something a little bit like this?

Noble and Engineer as before

2 Slayers w/Gromril Hammer and Hammer

4 Beardlings with Hammer

5 gcs in stash.

That definitely adds the numbers, but is it really worthwhile?


Last edited by JPRoth1980 on Mon 23 May 2011 - 12:12; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Typo Correction)
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf Treasure Hunters--Help!   Mon 23 May 2011 - 12:57

If you'r going to use the beardlings as a meat shield why not give them a shield?
I wouldn't bother with gromil armour or gromil hammers, they could just be regular, you would save 25gc on the armour alone.. thats another beardling...Perhaps you could save enough for a Tilean marksman HS, in early games he could prove quite usefull.
Dwarves seem quite hard to start out with, my advice would be to create a warband with a story that looks characterfull and just have fun, winning isn't that important in Mordheim.
BTW I highly recomend you use the advanced crittables Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf Treasure Hunters--Help!   Mon 23 May 2011 - 13:23

We just concluded our first campaign and I think my dwarves did rather well.

I started off with the intention of being a melee type band but no one would let me catch them on the streets of Mordheim. So I was forced to change tactics a bit. I would get my 2 quarrelers in an elevated position to cover the lads who would wait in "ambush" (I almost never charged, just received). My first lads got talent hero was a quarreler who came to be feared in the campaign. Funny to think of the warbands of Mordheim looking to the sky in fear of a dwarf. Very Happy

My noble was avoided until later campaign by all but the vampire, and was taken OOA more than not. My engineer grabbed a crossbow and hung out with the quarrelers. My slayers were like glass cannons, I could take out a few enemies but they almost always fell themselves. My promoted lads and their clansmen/quarreler gangs did very well.

We had a very fun campaign. While not keeping detailed statistics I lost only 3 or 4 matches, and undisputedly tied with the Middenheimers as champ. With dwarves, the most important thing to me is choose the location of your fights. We aren't mobile. let them come to us.
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf Treasure Hunters--Help!   Mon 23 May 2011 - 13:37

smokezombie wrote:
If you'r going to use the beardlings as a meat shield why not give them a shield?

Because a shield doesn't impact their survivability nearly as much as I'd prefer it did, for the points. It's definitely something they will get, eventually, assuming a few survive. Just not right now.

smokezombie wrote:
I wouldn't bother with gromil armour or gromil hammers, they could just be regular, you would save 25gc on the armour alone.. thats another beardling...Perhaps you could save enough for a Tilean marksman HS, in early games he could prove quite usefull.

Here's the thing: I really, really do not want to start off with more than 8 models. That way, I can choose to rout if necessary to save my heroes. Going up to 9 models would be nice, but I'm planning on saving it for after I get some cash saved up and can start using meaningful characters.

smokezombie wrote:
BTW I highly recomend you use the advanced crittables Very Happy

No. Just no. In a game with vastly overpriced armor, making virtually all crits ignore it leads to nothing more than a club-and-dagger swarm (or, in a few cases, lots of blunderbusses). My hatred for those tables is like a thousand suns. Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf Treasure Hunters--Help!   Mon 23 May 2011 - 14:15

But...the basic crit chart ignores armors saves just as often as everything else (edit: more often than everything else -- thanks smokezombie). Could you tone your hatred down to say...10 suns?
sunny sunny sunny sunny sunny sunny sunny sunny sunny sunny


Last edited by DRD1812 on Mon 23 May 2011 - 14:55; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf Treasure Hunters--Help!   Mon 23 May 2011 - 14:24

Not sure what you mean, on regular crit chart there is only a 1 in 3 ( a roll of 1-2) chance you get an armour save. Looking through the advanced crit chart you seem to get a save more than the regular one .
misile weapons... save allowed only an a 3-5
bludgeoning weapons... save allowed on a 1-2 and 5-6
bladed weapons...save allowed on a 3-4
unarmed combat...save allowed on a 1-4
thrusting weapons...save allowed on a 1 -4
Still we all play in different ways and whatever works for you is the best for you.

Do you play with the extra +1as for shields?

Planning a warband is almost as fun as playing Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf Treasure Hunters--Help!   Mon 23 May 2011 - 16:40

smokezombie wrote:
Not sure what you mean, on regular crit chart there is only a 1 in 3 ( a roll of 1-2) chance you get an armour save. Looking through the advanced crit chart you seem to get a save more than the regular one .
misile weapons... save allowed only an a 3-5
bludgeoning weapons... save allowed on a 1-2 and 5-6
bladed weapons...save allowed on a 3-4
unarmed combat...save allowed on a 1-4
thrusting weapons...save allowed on a 1 -4
Still we all play in different ways and whatever works for you is the best for you.

Valid point. Erm, oops? I still hates them, precious.

smokezombie wrote:
Do you play with the extra +1as for shields?

Currently up for debate. I would say yes, since I want to see more sword/board (or, you know, axe/club/board, whatever) and less club/dagger, but I don't have the ultimate say in things.

smokezombie wrote:
Planning a warband is almost as fun as playing Very Happy

Definitely agree here.
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf Treasure Hunters--Help!   Mon 6 Jun 2011 - 22:21

I've played Dwarves on numerous occatioons.. They're pretty tanky and hard to kill, but also usually ends up with 1 s3 attack, and slayers always getting killed first because of their hitting power/lak of armor.. This campaign I've gone for some cheap beardlings with 2handed weaps and halberds - really evens it out!
A "cheap" hench with t4, s4 (halberd) and only goes OOA on a 6 for 35 aint bad Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf Treasure Hunters--Help!   Tue 7 Jun 2011 - 5:48

Axes are not so great, but *dwarf* axes are pretty good, especially when combined with the Dwarf skill Master of Blades.

In my circle we use the advanced crit tables, but for every result that was "+x to injury and ignore armour saves" we deleted the part about ignoring armour saves. This, combined with the shields and bucklers giving +1 AS in melee led to a bit more xxxx-and-board use.

We also used the house rule that toughened leathers count as light armour for the purposes of equipping rather than equipment. Being able to give your henchmen a 5+ save vs daggers while dual-wielding (or 4+ if you have a shield) tends to mean you see less dagger use - people will either upgrade to a proper weapon or give them a shield. Also, the greater armour usage means you see more axes to cut through the armour.

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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf Treasure Hunters--Help!   Tue 7 Jun 2011 - 7:28

I've played and met Dwarves lots of times and they often do well. The tactics I'd suggest is to make them the toughest you possibly can so you can withstand a charge and then get the chance to strike back. So that means:
- Double dwarf axes on at least two heroes, preferably the slayers since they can't have armour. Combine them with Master of blades, that skill is insane.
- Lucky Charm and Rabbit's foot on all heroes ASAP (to remove hits and get rerolls on failed step aside / armour rolls)
- Resilient and Step aside as first skills (possibly Master of blades before resilient). Toughness 5 against strength 3 removes all critical hits!
- Don't waste too much money on Gromril Armour. For 100gc less (or 25 on startup), you get a heavy armour which is less than 16.66% less effective. (Less than since armour is often completely ignored by critical hits). Dwarves don't get -1 M for combining Heavy Armour with a shield!
- Put your starting hench in different groups. A fifth (and preferably sixth) hero is crucial!
- Never forget your extra wyrdstone in exploration.
- Keep your warband together. Whenever they charge (yes, they WILL get the charge, live with it), all of your troops should be close.
- Try to get charged in confined areas so you're not swarmed first turn.

Lord 0 wrote:
Axes are not so great, but *dwarf* axes are pretty good, especially when combined with the Dwarf skill Master of Blades.

I really can't stress this enough. The Master of Blades skill is what makes Dwarves great.
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf Treasure Hunters--Help!   Tue 7 Jun 2011 - 16:19

A friend of mine plays dwarfs and often does very well. They start off a little slow, but once they get going they are a quite potent.

For your Slayers especially, Schoel is right - go for Master of Blades before Step Aside. In fact, it will be well worth you converting the hammer heads on the slayers to being axe heads so they can take full advantage of the Master of Blades skill. You could always make the heads pinnable if you want to be able to start with hammers and go to dwarf axes later.

Also, Slayers will find significant use from both Nets and Fire-bombs. Slayers can't use ranged weapons so the fire-bomb equipment can sometimes be handy and they are replenished at the end of each game. The net is one use only, but since its range is longer than the dwarfs charge range it can be handy from time to time to stop someone charging on their turn allowing you another turn of shooting and possibly getting the charge on them. Or just stopping them from coordinating their charges.

Flash-powder is also useful for breaking up the coordination of your opponents charges and like the fire-bombs it is replenished at the end of each game. Unlike the fire-bombs it is only one use per game, but it is still a lot better than nothing.

On the subject of your TLGT heroes, somewhat counter-intuitively, in the long term the Dwarf Clansmen make the best sniper heroes and Thunderers make the best melee heroes. Because of this my friend forgoes the beardlings and maxes out on Clansmen until he has both TLGT heroes as Clansmen snipers. TLGT heroes are hard to replace so it is better to keep them out of melee combat.
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf Treasure Hunters--Help!   Tue 7 Jun 2011 - 16:40

Lord 0 wrote:
On the subject of your TLGT heroes, somewhat counter-intuitively, in the long term the Dwarf Clansmen make the best sniper heroes and Thunderers make the best melee heroes.

What's your reasoning there?
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf Treasure Hunters--Help!   Tue 7 Jun 2011 - 16:50

@Lord 0--Where were you when I was asking about Firebombs? Smile

http://boringmordheimforum.forumieren.com/t3409-dwarf-firebombs-holy-water?

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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf Treasure Hunters--Help!   Tue 7 Jun 2011 - 17:00

The stat lines are identical so the only difference is equipment. A Clansman with the Shooting table can take Weapons Expert and then have access to all the shooting weapons *and* have a better selection of melee weapons for defence. He will also be able to take a crossbow-pistol as a backup weapon to give him a pre-melee shot that will go before even any Strike First attacks.

A Thunderer with the Combat table can take Weapons Training and then have, say, a dwarf axe and an ithilmar Whip for a Strike First attack even when he is charged *and* take a crossbow for helping with long-range shooting when need be.

Von Kurst wrote:
@Lord 0--Where were you when I was asking about Firebombs? Smile
No idea, must have missed that one. In any case, they are clearly equipment and therefore need no special skill for any hero to use. All equipment that is one use per battle or one use only clearly says it is one use per battle or one use only or whatever. All equipment that says nothing can be used again and again and is considered replenished e.g. hunting arrows.

All heroes having access to such an AOE weapon means that clustering is a bad idea and helps keep Skaven and Orcs taking too much advantage from their high numbers. The fact that the fire-bombs are very much Dangerous To User means they don't get spammed and tend to only go on the more appropriate heroes.

Oh yeah, it also helps discourage that whole clump-your-whole-warband thing that some people dislike.
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf Treasure Hunters--Help!   Tue 7 Jun 2011 - 19:10

@Lord0: Are you sure Slayers with fire bombs are not a "spirit of the rules" violation in light of the "slayers may never carry or use missile weapons" rule?
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf Treasure Hunters--Help!   Tue 7 Jun 2011 - 19:29

Slayers are seeking an honourable death in battle to something big and greebly. Firebombs are used to to clear the chaff out of the way, say, clearing out the giant rats and the verminkin so they can get at the rat-ogre or clearing out the goblins and squigs so they can get at, you know, the troll Razz.

Fire-bombs improve game balance and are fun to use. The most important rule is to have fun, and in my circle we all have fun using them. So, no, I don't think we are breaking the spirit of the game Smile.

Had we found that allowing the Troll Slayers to use them made them too powerful or the game less fun then we would probably have made house rule preventing their use by the Troll Slayers. Happily, that was not the case so we will stick with RAW for now. Troll Slayers are un armoured and cannot get speed skills so they cannot get Dodge. Their parrys are impressive in melee, but once you get your monster-killer online their attacks have such high strength they cannot be parried so the Troll Slayer could be allowed to parry a million attacks if he likes and he still couldn't parry hits from the monster-killer.
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf Treasure Hunters--Help!   Wed 8 Jun 2011 - 8:24

Very cool. My playgroup is pretty new, so I haven't introduced the advanced equipment lists. As such, I haven't really had to deal with these questions yet.

As for fire bombs and flash powder, a few questions:

1. Can you use Dodge on fire bombs?

2. The phrase "there is only enough flash powder for one use during the battle" is suspiciously close to "a vial of blessed water contains enough liquid for just one use." What makes you think that one replenishes at the end of battle while the other does not? Is there an FAQ on the subject somewhere?

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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf Treasure Hunters--Help!   Today at 17:11

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