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 LOS and charging

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Dahag
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PostSubject: LOS and charging   Sun 22 May 2011 - 2:50

Although the rulebook does not say so, some groups play -as a houserule- that a model needs to SEE a model that he wants to charge. Our group kind of "accidentally" introduced that rule because someone declared it to be so and noone happened to object. Actually I'm not very happy with it because it punishes slow and / or numerous warbands much more severely than the others. Also it slows the game down quite a bit.

But before I potentially advocate to drop that "rule" again, I'd like to give it a chance and to hear from you, if you also have such a kind of house rule and why, or why not, respectively...

BTW: If so, how do you play it? One problem is what "LOS" means. Do you look from the head of the charging model or do you draw a straight line from the chargers base to the charged model?
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Schoel
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PostSubject: Re: LOS and charging   Sun 22 May 2011 - 2:59

From the living rulebook:

Quote :
If your warrior wants to charge an enemy model within 4" that he canít see (eg, because it is behind a corner) but has not been declared as hidden, he must pass an Initiative test to detect it

So the one who declared that it IS so, was kind of right. You have to have LOS but the 4" rule lets you sometimes ignore LOS. This is the rule we use.

We look from the head of the model.
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PostSubject: Re: LOS and charging   Sun 22 May 2011 - 7:16

LOS: Our group defines sight as "from the model's head. The enemy is visible if any part of the model's BODY can be seen (weapons and fancy hats don't count.)"

The "head" rule is sometimes waived with shooters (as they can "lean forward" and shoot underneath them, like in a siege scenario.) Of course, the rules of fairness dictates: if you can see them, they can see you.
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SerialMoM
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PostSubject: Re: LOS and charging   Sun 22 May 2011 - 8:41

If you don't see the attackee you need to pass an Ini test to attack him.
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Von Kurst
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PostSubject: Re: LOS and charging   Sun 22 May 2011 - 16:20

One group I play with draw the line from the base of the model, because of scale, manufacturer and pose differences in models, plus we have minimum base sizes based on the normal sized base for that type of creature in Warhammer.

Another draws the line head to head, sort of in a very relaxed sort of way. Like if there is a question, that is the preferred method for solving it.

This may sound fiddly but I think anything is. Drawing LOS from the model's head rewards those who use out of scale models and 'dynamic' posing. Drawing from the base requires some imagination as well.

As for LOS being a House Rule I think the rules as written are more restrictive than simple LOS, so most people play with some type of House Rule consciously or not.
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Dahag
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PostSubject: Re: LOS and charging   Wed 1 Jun 2011 - 1:18

thanks for your answers Smile

I'm sorry, I just realised that I had forgotten to mention an important detail. I do agree that you can't charge a model completely covered by a wall, of course.

My actual question is: Do you play that MODELS also take away line of sight or only large objects (walls, buildings, fences, trees etc..)?

In a former group (where I learnt the game back then), we always played that models do not take away LOS when it comes to the question of charging.

In our recent group we "accidentally" introduced the rule that models obstruct LOS for charging. But the effect is that it slows the game down quite a bit. Especially as one player stated that a model of the same size category automatically takes away LOS as it is "in theory" of the same size. How warhammerish of him Smile

Often a model is in charge range but it happens so often that a model cant charge because there is a friendly or enemy model standing in front of him, or two models fighting and the to-be-charged stands somewhere behind...

So do you play that MODELS take away LOS for declaring charges?
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Lord 0
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PostSubject: Re: LOS and charging   Wed 1 Jun 2011 - 1:29

In my circle we play that models do not obstruct LOS for the purposes of charging.
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Dahag
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PostSubject: Re: LOS and charging   Fri 10 Jun 2011 - 2:52

@Lord0: thanks for your reply. Smile

May I please have some more people's opinions on this? Do you play that models (friendly or enemy models or both) block LOS when declaring charges?
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Schoel
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PostSubject: Re: LOS and charging   Fri 10 Jun 2011 - 3:05

I actually haven't even thought about this. I guess that means we play that models don't cover each other. If 2 models are in a line with a third (enemy) model just straight ahead, no one in our group would ever say that the model in back can't see the enemy model for a charge. It hasn't even been up for discussion.
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Von Kurst
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PostSubject: Re: LOS and charging   Fri 10 Jun 2011 - 7:34

We have always played that a model must see his target to charge. Since we always play that way I don't know if our games are slow or not, but since we are very aware of blocked lines of sight we spread out as we close if possible.

To me it represents the men getting in each other's way, difficult terrain and the fog of war.
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PostSubject: Re: LOS and charging   Fri 10 Jun 2011 - 8:17

It depends. If you play "original interpretation" rules, where you must charge the closest warrior that you can see, then the point is moot.

If you interpret the Interception rule like most of us though, you simply have to be able to reach your opponent. If your model can literally see any part of another model, you've got line of sight and can charge. Get down there on a model's eye level or use a laser pointer.

So in my opinion, with the rare exception for very solid models or multiple densely packed models ACTUALLY blocking line of sight, you can charge who you want.


Last edited by DRD1812 on Fri 10 Jun 2011 - 10:49; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: LOS and charging   Fri 10 Jun 2011 - 10:48

I try to make LOS a 'realistic' thing. If a model is physically blocking sight then it does. Bases of models never block LOS though only the model itself. Also line of sight is drawn from the head of a model, but with allowances for the model being able to peek around corners (or for some standing up etc.) that way no bonus or penalty is given for posing a model.

Also i think this is a house rule but for a model at a window I draw LOS from the window itself as it makes sense a guy could lean out a window a little.
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PostSubject: Re: LOS and charging   Fri 10 Jun 2011 - 11:47

We give a bit more leeway on LoS than most people here, treating it like 40k; Models are assumed to represent warriors who will jump and dodge into better positions for cover (if ever argued,) and are assumed to be able to squeeze into any area (not just those around the model's head) to get a shot off. I don't know of any models in Mordheim that could completely block LoS; Maybe the chaos cart or whatever?

As for LoS when charging this recently came up in one of my games as well. I'm having a bit of an odd time with it because as far as I understand, from how it's stated in the rulebook -

1) If the model is within 4", and out of line of sight (i.e. the other side of a wall) the warrior must take an initiative test or face a failed charge.
2) If the model is outside of 4" and out of line of sight... the model is either disallowed a charge or doesn't have to test for it? The rules aren't very clear here. We just played the game out that all models had to test for initiative in order to charge an unseen opponent.

Warriors may be able to hear footsteps or see shadows cast from lights on the street, but they by no means have 40k-like intelligence to be able to charge pretty much whatever they want. I'm thinking charging is only allowed on opponents within 4" if they're out of LoS?
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PostSubject: Re: LOS and charging   Fri 10 Jun 2011 - 12:15

Radical_Edward wrote:
I'm thinking charging is only allowed on opponents within 4" if they're out of LoS?

^^Truth.

An interesting optional rule from one of my old campaign buddies in New York: "Get 'em Lads!"

If a warrior can see an enemy, and one of his buddies is within charge range but out of LoS, the second model can attempt an Initiative check to tag along on the charge. Basically, if the lead man has rounded a corner, sees an enemy, but the guy behind him has not rounded the corner yet, he might still get a charge.

The rationale is that seeing your battle buddy shout a warcry and sprint forward is a pretty good indication that there's something around the corner for you to hit.
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PostSubject: Re: LOS and charging   Fri 10 Jun 2011 - 12:19

I like that house rule. But that leads horde armies to a bit of an advantage. Maybe have them make a Ld test to be able to benefit? Or make it a skill and then the model with the skill can follow others AND have others follow him?
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PostSubject: Re: LOS and charging   Fri 10 Jun 2011 - 14:08

Radical_Edward wrote:


1) If the model is within 4", and out of line of sight (i.e. the other side of a wall) the warrior must take an initiative test or face a failed charge.
2) If the model is outside of 4" and out of line of sight... the model is either disallowed a charge or doesn't have to test for it? The rules aren't very clear here. We just played the game out that all models had to test for initiative in order to charge an unseen opponent.

Warriors may be able to hear footsteps or see shadows cast from lights on the street, but they by no means have 40k-like intelligence to be able to charge pretty much whatever they want. I'm thinking charging is only allowed on opponents within 4" if they're out of LoS?

Yes if a warrior can not see a model the warrior can not charge it unless it is within 4 inches AND the warrior passes an initiative test. Edit: there is no failed charge if the model fails the initiative test. If the test is failed the warrior just doesn't know the enemy is there. It can do something else.
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PostSubject: Re: LOS and charging   Today at 13:20

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