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Hrok
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PostSubject: Gunfusion...   Tue 10 May 2011 - 11:37

One of my players had a question and I didn't really know the answer. Can a character have a shield and a pistol equipped at the same time? In theory it makes sense, so I sort of allowed it, but still. Very unorthodox. I'd like to know the "official" rulings. I looked it up in the equipment section and couldn't find it.

Another question: How does switching weapons work? If a character is armed with a brace of pistols and has a sword on his belt, then he is charged, how is this resolved? Does he automatically switch or must he make effort to do so?

How does one consider reloading of a brace of pistols? Must he take two turns to reload them both, or is he considered to automatically do so (thus being the benefit of the brace)?

Lastly, does anyone else use the misfire table for blackpowder weapons and IS IT AWESOME?!
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StyrofoamKing
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PostSubject: Re: Gunfusion...   Tue 10 May 2011 - 11:54

Can't help you with everything, but I can with one thing:

If you do use these rules, you might want to reduce
the cost of the weapons (we suggest by 20%) to keep
the balance of the game fair.
misfires
Each time you roll a 1 when rolling to hit with a
blackpowder weapon (handgun, pistol, blunderbuss,
warplock pistol, etc), roll a D6 and consult the chart
below.
BLACKPOWDER WEAPON MISFIRES
1 BOOM! The weapon explodes with a
deafening roar! The shooter suffers an S4 hit
(this does not cause critical hits) and the
weapon is destroyed.
2 Jammed. The weapon is jammed and useless
for the remainder of the battle. You may use
it as normal in the next battle.
3 Phut. The weapon fails to fire and you must
remove the shot. This means that the shooter
must wait one extra turn before he can fire
this weapon again.
4-5 Click. The weapon fails to fire, but there is
no additional effect.
6 KA-BOOM! The weapon roars and spits a
cloud of black smoke and flame! The shot
hits the intended target and counts as having
+1 Strength.

(Would definitely agree to the 20% off part... otherwise, you'll end up with people like our group, wondering why anyone would pay MORE for a handgun than a crossbow if it blows up.)
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BalrogTheBuff
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PostSubject: Re: Gunfusion...   Tue 10 May 2011 - 12:00

As far as I know nothing stops you from using a shield and a pistol. Also in melee you automatically switch to your sword at the second round i believe. So if you use a Shiled and a Pistol when you charge in, then want to pull out your sword you can no problem. But until your next turn no parry since the sword isn't really out yet.
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PostSubject: Re: Gunfusion...   Tue 10 May 2011 - 12:07

@Styrofoam: I like it, because it adds some stochasticity to the game that could bring some lulz. I'd have to ask my group, but they'll likely appreciate the extra income. Wink

@Balrog: Thank you! I was sort of going to house rule something like that if nothing else could be figured out.
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Von Kurst
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PostSubject: Re: Gunfusion...   Tue 10 May 2011 - 12:12

Mordheim is a wonderful old game, but it is really hard to have "official rulings" with any GW game, old or new. What is "official" changes with who is answering. I'm not sure your question has been asked before but questions like it have been asked concerning extra arms and tail mutations.

As far as I can tell everything takes up a hand when you want to use it. Thus you may not hold a pistol and shield in the same hand at the same time. I believe someone has written (unofficial) rules for the shield pistol (see the Tower of London armory) to address this.

Switching weapons works automatically. Once your pistol has been used in hand to hand you may switch to another weapon without a test or waiting for your turn.

You may reload one blackpowder weapon per turn. With a brace you will always have one loaded pistol if you only fire one per turn. To fire both you have to have the skill pistolier.
Normal reloading rules still apply so both pistols will not be reloaded until 3 turns have passed.

Blackpowder Misfire--Only for swivel guns. BOOM!

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PostSubject: Re: Gunfusion...   Tue 10 May 2011 - 14:30

Shield and pistol? It's not unorthodox, it's Captain Americajutsu.
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PostSubject: Re: Gunfusion...   Tue 10 May 2011 - 18:00

Our group always figured that you used the pistol butt. This, it counts as a pistol for the first shot, and a club for all other attacks. That makes weapons like the Sword Pistol more useful, as you CAN use the sword in further attacks, as opposed to having a basic weapon.
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WarbossKurgan
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PostSubject: Re: Gunfusion...   Wed 11 May 2011 - 0:14

StyrofoamKing wrote:
Our group always figured that you used the pistol butt. This, it counts as a pistol for the first shot, and a club for all other attacks.
That what we do too.

Plus any model that carries a pistol counts as just having a club until you can afford to buy a pistol for him! pirat
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PostSubject: Re: Gunfusion...   Wed 11 May 2011 - 7:28

For the misfire rules... do you apply them for shots in close combat aswell? Even tho you roll asgainst your ws to hit?
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Von Kurst
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PostSubject: Re: Gunfusion...   Wed 11 May 2011 - 8:35

Yes. A roll of 1 is a roll of 1 after all.
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PostSubject: Re: Gunfusion...   Wed 11 May 2011 - 9:16

WarbossKurgan wrote:
StyrofoamKing wrote:
Our group always figured that you used the pistol butt. This, it counts as a pistol for the first shot, and a club for all other attacks.
That what we do too.

Plus any model that carries a pistol counts as just having a club until you can afford to buy a pistol for him! pirat

This is the rule, and what it means, no need for discussions here regarding this at least. Its the same in Warhammer :-P
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PostSubject: Re: Gunfusion...   Wed 11 May 2011 - 9:19

lol damm! I was hoping for a different answer. Laughing
What about this, if a caracter hates the person he's charging and he's using a pistol can he reroll a failed hit from his pistol? I would say yes but my head says this shouldn't be so...
For the record I love blackpowder wepons and use thm a lot ( 20% reduction and optional misfire rules ) but no one else in my group seems to use them..... dueling pistols and eagle eyes rock!!
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Von Kurst
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PostSubject: Re: Gunfusion...   Wed 11 May 2011 - 9:45

Tintin wrote:
StyrofoamKing wrote:
Our group always figured that you used the pistol butt. This, it counts as a pistol for the first shot, and a club for all other attacks.

This is the rule, and what it means, no need for discussions here regarding this at least. Its the same in Warhammer :-P

Well actually it isn't. The Mordheim rules are nothing like the above. Nor are the current Warhammer rules as far as I know. (I've lost my 8th edition rulebook.) Embarassed

However it is a common house rule based on Warhammer 5th edition rules that my group has also used for years. So long I was surprised it wasn't the 'official' rule.
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PostSubject: Re: Gunfusion...   Wed 11 May 2011 - 10:36

I just count Pistols as Clubs for WYSIWYG. That way my pirates with pistols are WYSIWYG. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Gunfusion...   Wed 11 May 2011 - 10:52

Hrok wrote:
One of my players had a question and I didn't really know the answer. Can a character have a shield and a pistol equipped at the same time? In theory it makes sense, so I sort of allowed it, but still. Very unorthodox. I'd like to know the "official" rulings. I looked it up in the equipment section and couldn't find it.

He can not use them in the same hand, if that's what your asking. A shield + pistol in one hand each is fine though.

Hrok wrote:
Another question: How does switching weapons work? If a character is armed with a brace of pistols and has a sword on his belt, then he is charged, how is this resolved? Does he automatically switch or must he make effort to do so?

Like people have said, the official rule is that you switch from round 2, without penalties. This is an exception to the normal rule. Besides pistols, you aren't allowed to switch weapons in close combat. However, a lot of people play that the pistol counts as a club in round two and onwards.

Hrok wrote:
How does one consider reloading of a brace of pistols? Must he take two turns to reload them both, or is he considered to automatically do so (thus being the benefit of the brace)?
He can fire and reload one each turn, so if he has a brace, he can fire once each turn. A skill, Pistolier (I think), allows him to fire both in one turn. He still can only reload one each turn so the turn after, he can't fire at all. Two turns after, he can fire one and reload one, just like normal. If he doesn't fire the second turn after, he can fire both the turn after that.

Hrok wrote:
Lastly, does anyone else use the misfire table for blackpowder weapons and IS IT AWESOME?!
We've stopped using them. It makes blackpowder weapons too bad in my opinion.
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PostSubject: Re: Gunfusion...   Wed 11 May 2011 - 11:35

The table is really useless in my opinion, most people dont even think about using blackpowder weapons (except pistols). Though i would find them intresting since alot of people tend to buy Duellings Pistols and they would kinda take the usefullness from them.
To me a pair of Duelling Pistols is one of the best weapons aviable.

Anyway using a Shield and a Pistol is just fine, its just weird to imagine. The club idea is also fine, though this brings another question up.
If u use the Crit Chart with specific weapons and you use the Shot in melee range, and do crit the enemy, what table would u use?

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PostSubject: Re: Gunfusion...   Thu 12 May 2011 - 1:27

Kajiya wrote:
Anyway using a Shield and a Pistol is just fine, its just weird to imagine. The club idea is also fine, though this brings another question up.
If u use the Crit Chart with specific weapons and you use the Shot in melee range, and do crit the enemy, what table would u use?

We use the crit shart for shooting. Only thing that makes sense.
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PostSubject: Re: Gunfusion...   Thu 12 May 2011 - 9:50

I generally play that, if you've got a brace of pistols, you can fire one on your turn, get charged on your opponent's turn, and use them both for that first round of combat. Any objection to that ruling? What if he gave 'em both barrels with the Pisolier skill? Could he still get two shots if he was subsequently charged?
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PostSubject: Re: Gunfusion...   Thu 12 May 2011 - 12:00

Since the pistolier skill says that normal reloading rules apply my answer is that only one pistol is loaded when your opponent attacks, thus you may only use one pistol for your attacks.

For the second question since both pistols are empty, thus neither is loaded when your opponent attacks.

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PostSubject: Re: Gunfusion...   Thu 12 May 2011 - 12:51

That seems like a valid interpretation, Von Kurst. But my question comes from these conflicting lines:

"A pistol takes a whole turn to reload, so you may only fire every other turn. If you have a brace of pistols (i.e., two) you may fire every turn."

and

"If you are firing a brace of pistols, your model can fight with 2 Attacks in the first turn of close combat."

I had always interpreted these rules separately. It makes zero sense fluff-wise, but it seemed to be what the rules were saying: you get two shots in hand to hand no matter what. It seemed simpler than having to remember which models fired how many shots.

That said, do you think I'm playing outside the spirit of the rules? How do you keep track of which models have fired?

And another question while I'm at it: I've got two attack on my profile. I want to fire two pistols. Where does my third attack come from? Do I just lose it?
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PostSubject: Re: Gunfusion...   Thu 12 May 2011 - 14:02

I would love to say we use the RELOAD counters from LotOW, but we rely on our creaking middle aged brains. (Even though we have RELOAD counters...somewhere...I think.) Sometimes we get it wrong, sometimes the whippersnappers challenge our reloadedness just to mess with us. (That's how whippersnappers are.)

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PostSubject: Re: Gunfusion...   Fri 13 May 2011 - 1:32

DRD1812 wrote:
That seems like a valid interpretation, Von Kurst. But my question comes from these conflicting lines:

"A pistol takes a whole turn to reload, so you may only fire every other turn. If you have a brace of pistols (i.e., two) you may fire every turn."

and

"If you are firing a brace of pistols, your model can fight with 2 Attacks in the first turn of close combat."

I had always interpreted these rules separately. It makes zero sense fluff-wise, but it seemed to be what the rules were saying: you get two shots in hand to hand no matter what. It seemed simpler than having to remember which models fired how many shots.

That said, do you think I'm playing outside the spirit of the rules? How do you keep track of which models have fired?

And another question while I'm at it: I've got two attack on my profile. I want to fire two pistols. Where does my third attack come from? Do I just lose it?
The second rule doesn't mention that you can ignore rules written just above. So I'd say you are playing outside the spirit of the rule.

We don't have a lot of models with pistols so remembering them isn't very hard. If you do have a lot, I'd suggest counters.

As the rule is written, you get 2 attacks, no more, no less. So you would lose it.
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PostSubject: Re: Gunfusion...   Fri 13 May 2011 - 11:13

Ok, if a target is in melee and has a pistol, can he choose to keep the pistol equipped, instead of switching weapons, or is it automatic?

On that sort of note, if a target has two swords equipped and has a shield in his inventory, can he opt to switch one sword out for a shield? My gut says yes.

Back to guns. If you have a pistol in melee, then you attack during your own turn in combat, you're reloading on the opponent's combat phase, then your own turn, then their combat phase AGAIN, and then you're reloaded. Can you use the pistol as a club while reloading it? Or is it just tough cookies?

Lastly, and this is a HUGE segue, but how does charging with a two-handed weapon go? Does the "strikes first" from the charge overrule the "strikes last" from the weapon?
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PostSubject: Re: Gunfusion...   Fri 13 May 2011 - 11:45

Hrok wrote:
Ok, if a target is in melee and has a pistol, can he choose to keep the pistol equipped, instead of switching weapons, or is it automatic?
That depends on whether you are playing by House Rules or Rules as Written. By the Rules as Written there is no reason to keep the pistol, since it is empty and useless.


Hrok wrote:
On that sort of note, if a target has two swords equipped and has a shield in his inventory, can he opt to switch one sword out for a shield? My gut says yes.
What I think you are saying is a warrior with an empty pistol wants to switch from the pistol to the shield? The circumstance is not really envisioned by the rules as written.

Hrok wrote:
Back to guns. If you have a pistol in melee, then you attack during your own turn in combat, you're reloading on the opponent's combat phase, then your own turn, then their combat phase AGAIN, and then you're reloaded. Can you use the pistol as a club while reloading it? Or is it just tough cookies?
You can magically reload it (reloading is not an action, it just happens). You can't use it again until the combat ends and no enemy models are engaged with the warrior.

Hrok wrote:
Lastly, and this is a HUGE segue, but how does charging with a two-handed weapon go? Does the "strikes first" from the charge overrule the "strikes last" from the weapon?
No. "Always strikes last, even when charging."
Hence the skill Strongman.
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PostSubject: Re: Gunfusion...   Fri 13 May 2011 - 12:03

Quote :
On that sort of note, if a target has two swords equipped and has a shield in his inventory, can he opt to switch one sword out for a shield? My gut says yes.

At the start of every new combat, you choose what equipment is held in what hand. You have to keep that arrangement until you are no longer in hand to hand combat with an opponent.

Ex. A Captain is charged by an Orc. The cap has 2 swords and a shield on him. The captain decides to use sword and shield. He is stuck using sword and shield until his opponent is out of action or crawls/runs away. If new people charge him, and his original fight never ended, he's still in the same original combat.

If he is no longer in combat (he whoops them), and someone else charges him (or he charges), you may choose once again to use 2 swords or sword and shield. Fresh start.
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