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RevenganceDK
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PostSubject: Single Henchman Group- Earning Extra XP...   Wed 19 Jan 2011 - 16:52

Hello. Please provide feedback

PREFACE:
My idea is a culmination of several ideas related to the topic. Here is the main source.

http://boringmordheimforum.forumieren.com/t3751-experimental-rule-heroic-henchmen-experience-bonus?highlight=henchmen

As one of the other people in that topic said, when i started playing i too gave all my henchman xp for taking any other figure OOA. After 4 months, last night i stumbled upon the fact that it is only HEROES who get the OOA xp. I was severely disappointed as my play style and love of the game has been about tight infighting among all my warband. Now my opinion is why to even fight with my henchman if they don't get xp from OOA's and the term MEAT shield is even more applicable to the henchmen. Id almost rather jsut take the 500 gold pimp out my heroes and take 2 hench with dagger and club. I also see why people rout so early... just to give their hench and everyone experience.

Since learning that I have been ransacking my brain for an idea about how to still allow for my play style and love of the game but yet not piss off all the other players who play the original way when I GM apply the rule.

WHO, WHAT, WHEN, WHERE:
SO here is my idea. 1,2 is to help facilitate fairness of the new rule to make it fair for me and them:

1- You may NEVER haver more Henchman groups that the 6 on the one henchmen group sheet.
(we do this anyways)

2- This rule ONLY applies to single henchmen that takes up one of the 6 group slots.

3- That Single henchman may now gain xp from killing ONLY heroes. Once you allow a hero in a Slot to take a hero OOA xp that group is LOCKED and may NEVER be added to. It stays just him forever. (I would still like to make it any figure gives them the OOA xp but i understand that it could make them Over Powered. Perhaps Heroes = 1xp and Hench=1/2 xp !!please comment!!)

WHY:
I believe this rule will allow people to have more unique army's that they are attached to and that matter to them.

Henchman don't have to be as often, JUST meat shields / Fodder so you can get your hero there.

It will also make people more likely to attack with henchman VS heroes and still get XP from any OOA's. With the original rule I see why people

HOW is it BALANCED:
The rule is not overpowered because it requires that you may not add henchman to the group. SO if he gets OOA'd Ja"Vah the Orc Boyz may well die and take all his xp with him forever. This and the limit on only 6 hench slots really is what makes the rule balanced as you cant have a whole bunch of single groups It is possible to have 12 single models who gain xp from kills but then you only have 12 guys max, 6 of who have a 33% chance to die on an OOa loosing all the xp.

OTHER additional possible ideas: (please state what rule if any should be added)
Allow this to be applied to only one Hench type ie, Orc Boyz, Beastmen, Swordsmen, Ghouls ect.

Simularly, only 2 or 3 hench may do this.

Allow the hench to get 1/2 xp from killing hench, that carry to the next battle.

Please let me know what you think and provide specific comments, Thanks.
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PostSubject: Re: Single Henchman Group- Earning Extra XP...   Wed 19 Jan 2011 - 18:22

Welcome aboard.

I'm not much in favor of either upping the experience henchmen earn or the only 6 slots rule, but if it works for your group that's cool.

Our group doesn't have much problem with either single henchman groups or making decisions on how henchmen are used. Many times henchmen are the only warriors that accomplish anything in our games. Embarassed
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PostSubject: Re: Single Henchman Group- Earning Extra XP...   Wed 19 Jan 2011 - 19:11

This rule does seem to limit teams like Skaven or Orcs and Goblins since 6 henchmen groups to get 20 guys can be hard later on with all the deaths and new groups starting. Something to balance that out like maybe reducing the cost of adding a henchmen to an experienced group to 1gc per exp instead of 2, and allowing the exp 'pool' for henchmen recruitment to be the normal dice rolled OR one model of any group.

If you use this you would get a much more 'heroic' game for the henchmen. But you risk the actual heroes becoming pure moneymakers and cowards in teams that only allow 12 models especially. Why risk your actual heroes when you have 6 more or less expendable flagellants ready to lay down some indiscriminate justice on some witch scum?

Edit: Please note I am NOT trying to discourage this idea as I kind of like it. I am just trying to make sure as many flaws are worked out before they impact a game.
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PostSubject: Re: Single Henchman Group- Earning Extra XP...   Thu 20 Jan 2011 - 10:40

--The issue of balance. I find this issue to be one of perspective. For example 2 campaigns ago a couple of players in my group were complaining about how powerful the Undead warband was. In the current campaign the undead warbands are not only the lowest rated they are also complaining about how weak they are. What has changed? The players who fought against the undead are now playing them.
--The 6 henchmen slots. I will point out that the original sheet provided with permission to photocopy in 1999 has 5 henchmen slots, thus the Only 6ers lose legitimacy with me. All warbands benefit from the option to have single henchman groups. Warbands with only 4 heroes to start REALLY need to increase their odds of gaining another hero to compete.
Also large warbands like Skaven, Orcs and Goblins and Lizardmen are arbitrarily limited by only 6 slots.
Finally Hired Sword use which seems to be low amongst many Mordheim groups (its never been in ours) is really curtailed by having only 6 possible slots for henchmen.
--Henchmen earning experience for putting a hero OOA. I think my main objection to this rule would be one of bookkeeping and the possibility of abuse. In my group many of us would forget to use the rule more often than not. Meaning that the young uns who remember would have ANOTHER advantage.
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PostSubject: Re: Single Henchman Group- Earning Extra XP...   Thu 20 Jan 2011 - 12:07

I like the idea of it as a special rule for a narrative campaign, but not as a general rule (unless your group always does those campaigns!) . My idea would be to include it as a written up story or story-like series of battle reports. You will need a good GM for the overall story, but it seems like that is well in hand!

Limiting the number of slots to 6 for henchmen is not really a big issue as long as the group OKs that. But my opinion is that you do not since the larger teams do suffer from that.

Alternatively you could make a special 'demi-hero' catagory as an option to go to if you roll a Lads got Talent but have all your hero slots full. Those models become your special upgrading henchmen and their own group. Then if you ever lose a hero one of those is automatically promoted to fill the newly open slot. This keeps named individuals as the focus, while still allowing the horde teams to play their normal way.

I hope that helps you get some ideas.
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PostSubject: Re: Single Henchman Group- Earning Extra XP...   Thu 20 Jan 2011 - 16:26

If the people you are playing with agree, then the simplest solution is to allow henchmen to gain experience for taking out enemy models, etc., as you were doing before. If you all liked it, go with it. Necromunda, GW's WH40K equivalent of Mordheim, does not make a distinction between heroes and henchmen.

There will be a problem with henchmen groups if any henchman in the group who takes out enemy model earns an experience point for everyone in that group. But that problem could be balanced by multiplying the number of experience a group needs for an advance by the number of warriors in the group. So if you have two warriors in a henchman group, they earn and advance after the group earns four experience points.

If you roll for henchmen on the henchman table still, heroes will still be superior.
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PostSubject: Re: Single Henchman Group- Earning Extra XP...   Thu 20 Jan 2011 - 16:57

Thanks for all the replies so far, but let me be more specific with my idea and re state and clarify it with a few new/updated portions.

first off I see what you are all saying about the 6 slot max henchman problem. I will do away with that, or perhaps say 12 slots/2 pages is the max so people wont have allllll of their henchman be in a single group.

BUT that is not the most important thing. Pay attention to this statement..... What all of this is getting at is to be ABLE to submit a new idea that changes some of the dynamics of henchmen to a few of my groups players, and to have the idea be as fair and balanced as possible.

SO the updated idea in one lump is this.................(note the numbers are up for discussion)..............

A max of 3 single henchman in a group are veteran henchman and the other henchman look up to them. As such any henchman in one of these 3 slots can gain 1 experience from each hero they take OOA. YOU may NEVER add more henchman to that group.


what do you think.
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PostSubject: Re: Single Henchman Group- Earning Extra XP...   Thu 20 Jan 2011 - 17:34

I think that would at least be a fun and usable rule. I assume since you play this great game that you are NOT worried about balance as much as fun. I think you should use that.
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PostSubject: Re: Single Henchman Group- Earning Extra XP...   Thu 20 Jan 2011 - 20:02

I am warming to the rule as well. I think it would be a great campaign special rule for a Tilean campaign or an assassination scenario. Or as in this case, a fine House rule.
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PostSubject: Re: Single Henchman Group- Earning Extra XP...   Thu 20 Jan 2011 - 21:08

Well, the first time my brother and I first picked up a Mordheim Rulebook, we misread the experience rules... we thought EVERY model used the hero experience / advancement rules. Thus, in our super-short campaign, we had strong henchmen with skills. Lots of fun and personality, really.

I can definitely see a "mid-level" group idea. Option A is the "one group of up to three", like Reveng mentions.

Another fun idea would be a "Sergeant" figure... for each Unit type, you can have one model that gains exp for killing heroes (and/or) enemies. No one can join him, and should he die, another takes over as Sarge. (Although, Reven's idea is fairer to groups that only have 1 exp gaining group, like Undead.)

One idea I wanted to throw into the Dog of War was "veteran" units. You got to pay an extra 6gc to get henchmen that start off with Exp 2 and one advancement (find them on a rarity roll of X). You could also get very experienced henchmen that start off with Exp 5 and two advancements, at +15gc and rarity Y. The catch, or course, was that you paid first and rolled for advancements AFTER.
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PostSubject: Re: Single Henchman Group- Earning Extra XP...   Thu 20 Jan 2011 - 23:54

Wow the more developed this gets the more entertaining it is!

I had thought of something like the Sergeants as well. I had thought that once you reached max number of heroes a Lads got Talent would upgrade up to one model per Henchmen Group to be a Sergeant. So your Swordsmen group would be Swordmaster Joria and his Lads. thumbsup And your friend's War Dogs would be Woofy's Pack. I was thinking creatures that don't normally gain exp would have a single advance granted to their leader. Big Guys do not get this bonus. Sergeants would be able to level farther than their men, but still used henchmen chart and injuries. Only the Sergeants would gain bonus exp from things as well. I also thought that Sergeants would only die on a 1 instead of a 1 or 2. It would help bring more flavor to the men doing the dying for you. While they don't get any better gear or skills or what not, they still are more unique.

I struggled with developing it though and didn't post because it was unpolished. But you guys started it!
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PostSubject: Re: Single Henchman Group- Earning Extra XP...   Fri 21 Jan 2011 - 3:43

BalrogTheBuff wrote:
So your Swordsmen group would be Swordmaster Joria and his Lads. thumbsup

*looks around* Who, me?
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PostSubject: Re: Single Henchman Group- Earning Extra XP...   Fri 21 Jan 2011 - 7:31

What I did in my campaign is change the level chart for henchies. I got rid of 2-4 giving him plus one I and said 23+1I, 4+1s, 56+1bs or ws, 7+1a , 8+1s not ld anymore, 9 is the big change where you can roll again or
take the skill hardened where they now only die on a 1 (ps if you roll again you can't get 10 11 12)

As far as what you said that is my whole basis. I want to give more flavor to the guys dying for you. Just watch out how far you take this because you don't want the vetern players to throw out the entire idea because it seems to out there. That what I needed help doing. Integrating this stuff in a way that doesn't ostricsise the vets.
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PostSubject: Re: Single Henchman Group- Earning Extra XP...   Fri 21 Jan 2011 - 7:48

StyrofoamKing wrote:
BalrogTheBuff wrote:
So your Swordsmen group would be Swordmaster Joria and his Lads. thumbsup

*looks around* Who, me?

Exactly
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PostSubject: Re: Single Henchman Group- Earning Extra XP...   Fri 21 Jan 2011 - 7:55

RevenganceDK wrote:
Integrating this stuff in a way that doesn't ostricsise the vets.

Don't worry about that. Ever. Those guys are tougher than an old Orc's Left Boot!

Remember for your group you can do whatever you want. As long as you keep everything friendly, (which you have!) you are doing exactly what this forum was set up to do! You are bouncing ideas off people, keeping the ones that help your group, and not using the ones that don't apply to what you were looking for. thumbsup

Whatever you do just post a Battle Report or two and maybe a new Thread outlining the rules that you decide to use after testing them for a few games. until it is playtested, we are just theorizing. Mordheim has so many flaws in the rules. Which allows the game to be easily customizable and forces a much friendlier gaming style.

Keep up the good work RevenganceDK Sir, yes sir!
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PostSubject: Re: Single Henchman Group- Earning Extra XP...   Fri 21 Jan 2011 - 8:01

I have never been a fan of the Henchmen vs Hero aspect of the Game. I played Blood Bowl and one of my favorite things was to watch a random character get some good upgrades and become one of your better players. There is something kind of cool about watching your human lineman go from being completely average, then rolling some good levels-up getting an MVP or 2 and becoming the lineman the controls the middle of the board.


I understand why they did it, and the idea that some of your guys are just expendable I think isn't a bad thing, but I must admit that I have had some henchmen groups max-out with some weak upgrades and wanting them to die so I could get some more with better upgrades.
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PostSubject: Re: Single Henchman Group- Earning Extra XP...   Fri 21 Jan 2011 - 8:51

I do like the idea of presenting it to my players as you have stated. Your basically giveing a bonus to ha few henchman to be sergents and they gain xp from hero ooa'swhats the opinion on max number of them? 3like I suggested or....... what do you think?
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PostSubject: Re: Single Henchman Group- Earning Extra XP...   Fri 21 Jan 2011 - 9:32

I would say start with the 3 (but no limit to henchmen slots otherwise) and work from there. I think this has potential for a fun variation once playtested and fine-tuned.

This is one of the more interesting new ideas I've seen!
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