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shotguncoffee
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PostSubject: Where have all the interesting Rules threads gone?   Fri 14 Jan 2011 - 6:34

Since I joined it seems that fewer and fewer intersting rules threads surface on this board, and online in general. Mordheim is a dying game if needs an active community to keep it alive. But discussions have been dwindling, what can be done about it? Sad
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PostSubject: Re: Where have all the interesting Rules threads gone?   Fri 14 Jan 2011 - 7:16

Well, I can start the Devil's Den Challenge again, but Tom seems to like that in the General Discussion board. (I completely understand his preferance, although anything in that section whiters and dies.)

Other than a contest of some sort, I can't really thing of a way of "picking things up". Sorry.
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PostSubject: Re: Where have all the interesting Rules threads gone?   Fri 14 Jan 2011 - 8:19

I kindly suggest a subforum to this forum called Rules Deveopment & Feedback
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PostSubject: Re: Where have all the interesting Rules threads gone?   Fri 14 Jan 2011 - 11:02

I know this is totally my impusiveness and bravado speaking but what keeps these games going is new projects to work on. BTB brought a LOT of new faces to mordheim. Sartosa was awesome (but i don't think as well advertised). I know there are many projects going on, but none are big community projects.

Also, I see many of the Mordheim people on the Death Squads Game forums. Maybe that is some of the cause. Curse you guys for making fun games and bringing hope!

Thought for the Day: Hope is but the first step on the road to disappointment. (Dawn of War, not me! Death Squads looks great!)
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PostSubject: Re: Where have all the interesting Rules threads gone?   Fri 14 Jan 2011 - 11:15

Well, a sequel to BTB is in the works... Wink

And no, there will be no Rules Development forum.

I don't think it absolutely depends on rules to keep the game alive. Determined people who keep their own groups alive and produce new models, terrain, battle reports... and show them off and share their experience - that's what it's about. These things keep your online peers excited and motivated.

Good rules take a lot of time and you can't expect well-thought-out projects to come up every year.

I also think it very much depends on the initiative on individuals. BTB was driven by two people, Sartosa by one (correct me if I am wrong), Letters of the Damned by one... With a single person missing/dropping out an entire project can go down... If you have a vision and want to start something, then do so. I don't see a lot of people having the endurance and determination for projects such as the above. The enthusiasm of the Coreheim group could be a huge driving factor if it was related to... well... Mordheim.

So, bottom line, if you want to see big projects, go ahead and start something serious. What we don't need is a bunch of rules threads that don't actually go anywhere other than providing a pass-time for people who don't get to play. And back up your rules with eye candy. That's crucial.

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PostSubject: Re: Where have all the interesting Rules threads gone?   Fri 14 Jan 2011 - 13:49

Death Squads - Definitely a fun site. To any 40k fans, I DEFINITELY recommend you head over there. (Sadly, my ken and figure-collection of 40k is non-existent, and my particular group didn't quite take to DS as much as I did... without a group to play with, my momentum on a creative project drops to 0. Sad fact, really! Still, if you've never seen it, GO THERE. NOW.) http://www.deathsquadsgame.com/

Sartosa: Mostly by one. Master helped me a lot with the rules development itself (I'd say... 40%, maybe?) The actual pdfs were done by me, at my terrible snail's pace.

New Rules: Well, personally, I love writing new rules. Back on the ol' SG forum, tons of people put out tons of little projects... whether that was because more people were contributing, or just more people, I can't tell you.

Do we need to have a Rules Development Sub folder? I'm not sure. But in my opinion, I've noted the following:

~On a creative project, I helps to have one or two people have the "final say." I love collaborating, but if there is more than one opinion on how a new rule should be made, all production STOPS. That's why a authoritative figure is important on any project (it can be divided into sub-projects, for example- one person runs a campaign creation, but some of the warbands or rule sets are spear-headed by different people).

~The larger the project, the more "impression" it has on the hobby- however, the longer the document, the less likely so one is going to read it. To quote the vernacular, "too long, didn't read."

~For both of the above reasons, mini-rules are great. If each person contributes something small, then the end result has less negative inertia. (Ex. new locations, adaptations of the other Empire city-states into merc variants.)

~For all THREE of the above, I love contests - nothing draws people out of their shells like a little friendly competition. While it does not "test" any of the rules written, it does allow some sort of dividing the wheat from the chaff. That is to say, however, you can have competition WITHOUT having to make rules- The Tom painting award is perfect example. Other contest ideas: prose writing (either completely made up, or rendered from an actual battle), best photographed scene (i.e. best snap shot of figures doing battle), best "old english" insult / war cry.

And remember Gandhi - "Be the change you want to see in the world." Want more rules? Write 'em!
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PostSubject: Re: Where have all the interesting Rules threads gone?   Fri 14 Jan 2011 - 20:03

Well Werekin is heading up the development of Mutiny in Marienburg. Brahm is apparently working to start up Letters of the Damned again. Therefore I see that things that are happening in the Mordheim community. These are more private developments though but also generally put out a higher quality product. It seems that by far the majority of threads where people put out ideas for new rules go no where and those rules never get past the level 4 rating (refer Letters of the Damned 3). This is because very few people are willing to spend months (or years) playtesting their rules in numerous situations with numerous warbands to move their ideas from 'forum trash' to 'reliable'. Unfortunately my time is limited Sad and as a result my gaming group is having more than enough fun playing by the solid rules that already exist without bothering with ideas that are flung around without being backed up by substantial playtesting.

That is not to say that quality products cannot come out of forum discussions and Sartosa is probably an example of a project that was developed largely through ideas on the old SG forum which StyrofoamKing eventually compiled, agregated and tweaked into a working suppliment. He spent the time to do this though and spent months playtesting with his gaming group. Von Kurst and Playtable's group have now played Sartosa several times and are feeding ideas back to Styro (Sartosa thread (long)) who will hopefully be able to release an errata for Sartosa in the future. Other examples off the top of my head are Pathfinder Dubstyles who has made tweaks to the Night Goblin warband from Mordheimer and has followed that up with months of playtesting (Night Goblin warband thread). Hopefully he is able to bring that project through to completion and release version 1.

I don't know why rules ideas in the forum has died off recently. Hopefully though this is a sign of people currently being content with playing Mordheim as it exists now. thumbsup
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PostSubject: Re: Where have all the interesting Rules threads gone?   Fri 14 Jan 2011 - 21:08

RationalLemming wrote:

I don't know why rules ideas in the forum has died off recently. Hopefully though this is a sign of people currently being content with playing Mordheim as it exists now. thumbsup

Amen!
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PostSubject: Re: Where have all the interesting Rules threads gone?   Sat 15 Jan 2011 - 3:41

Nicely said, Dave and Ben.

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PostSubject: Re: Where have all the interesting Rules threads gone?   Sat 15 Jan 2011 - 11:05

I hope Mordheim isn't dying. I've been playing since `03, and my group has been going almost that long and still going strong. We just recently started a new campaign (continuing from a 6+ year narrative linking our other campaigns) using BTB as a basis, but revamped for use in Mordheim. Tomorrow will be our second play session, and everyone is loving it so far. Keep the game alive!
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PostSubject: Re: Where have all the interesting Rules threads gone?   Sun 16 Jan 2011 - 1:29

@sartori:

Which modifications did you integrate into BtB to play it as Mordheim campaign?

I also thought about a modification, but would be very grateful if i can use some of your ideas.

Thank you

SerialMoM
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PostSubject: Re: Where have all the interesting Rules threads gone?   Sun 16 Jan 2011 - 16:11

check PM's
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PostSubject: Re: Where have all the interesting Rules threads gone?   Wed 19 Jan 2011 - 6:27

Perhaps most of the "rules guys" are busyotherwise or have moved to another site? This forum started out focussing more on the hobby aspect (painting, modelling, terrain, fluff) than on rules (which was centered at the old SG forum)... rules discussions only got more popular when the SG forum was shut down.
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PostSubject: Re: Where have all the interesting Rules threads gone?   Wed 19 Jan 2011 - 10:47

True... most of the rules posted on this site are finished projects, while the SG site used to have more "works in progress". One if not necessariloy "better" than the other, but I prefer the works in progress, as most of my collaboraters are on the other side of the world.
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PostSubject: Re: Where have all the interesting Rules threads gone?   Wed 19 Jan 2011 - 11:17

Hey I'm gonna regret this (in a good way) but I would love to work on a collaborative project. I am really enjoying Death Squads but Mordheim is where I feel most at home (and my wife prefers fantasy over sci fi for games)

Although talk of another project should probably be put into another thread.
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PostSubject: Re: Where have all the interesting Rules threads gone?   Wed 19 Jan 2011 - 12:01

Balrog - well, I'll be sure to snag you for the Halfling/Goblin Wee War campaign when I get around to it. Not for a while, but should be this year sometime.
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PostSubject: Re: Where have all the interesting Rules threads gone?   Wed 19 Jan 2011 - 12:25

Gnoblars or Goblins of some kind for me, although I'd do whatever to help out
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PostSubject: Re: Where have all the interesting Rules threads gone?   Wed 19 Jan 2011 - 13:37

Mordheim is not dead with my gaming group.

For the most part, I am happy with the rules with a tweak here or there (an extra +1 for shields in close combat is about as dramatic a change as I have felt the need for). I have worked up some rules for making Mordheim and Warhammer versions of the characters in a D&D campaign I was running, so the PCs could actually be involved in some larger skirmishes and pitched battles - but that is really more "interesting rules" for D&D, not Mordheim, so I have never posted them here (it worked out reasonably well, by the way - that is, I enjoyed it and the players did too).

I sometimes look at the new rules threads, but not always. I look at threads on rules questions/interpretations for the GW material,but not generally for Sartosa and Border Town Burning,etc., since I have not had any real experience with them so far (hope to at some point).

I am very interested in threads on new scenarios, and I am curious about new campaign supplements that people are working on, since I may have a chance to play with them at some point.
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PostSubject: Re: Where have all the interesting Rules threads gone?   Thu 20 Jan 2011 - 1:36

I'm basically just gonna quote Balrog:

BalrogTheBuff wrote:
Hey I'm gonna regret this (in a good way) but I would love to work on a collaborative project. I am really enjoying Death Squads but Mordheim is where I feel most at home

So give me a call when needed... I mean, I live in Paris and as I see most of you guys are from the other side of the globe well... I think mine is going to be mostly an online partecipation... But I'd love to anyway!! I've been playing all 3 GW games for about 4-5 years and now basically dropped 40K and WFB for mordheim and LOtR; LOVE making roles and staff and especially working on backgrounds and stories Razz which i think take the best out of these games...
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PostSubject: Re: Where have all the interesting Rules threads gone?   Fri 21 Jan 2011 - 0:26

BalrogTheBuff wrote:
Hey I'm gonna regret this (in a good way) but I would love to work on a collaborative project. I am really enjoying Death Squads but Mordheim is where I feel most at home (and my wife prefers fantasy over sci fi for games)

Although talk of another project should probably be put into another thread.

Actually I could want to help out, if you get Styro into it. Although working with a new team of you guys could also be pretty cool.

It would be a great way to get my gaming group out of playing dungeons and dragons, painting some models and play some hardcore Mordheim.

However, my amount of ideas is a vast emptiness at the moment, unless I pick Athel Loren back up, I have just about nothing. So I hope one of you has a got idea.

We do need a place where we can post our works in progress though, because if we have to stick to PMs it is going to get really hard.

Oh, and I'm really glad to see that Sartosa has caught on, I was really happy with the finished project. And since I've only tested parts of the rules here and there, I've never got to play in a full on Sartosa Campaign.

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PostSubject: Re: Where have all the interesting Rules threads gone?   Mon 7 Feb 2011 - 10:37

Well I was just wondering... maybe that we could just try to invent a total new thing, with mordheim rules, gameplay and WHF's style but inventing some totally new 'undiscovered' island or continent that's not shown in the map and have convertions of the relatively original warbands into something more souvage or we could even create some new races out of nowher but little bits n pieces of the others.... We should get on a chat room and try to discuss this an afternoon...

-leonemaster
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PostSubject: Re: Where have all the interesting Rules threads gone?   Mon 7 Feb 2011 - 11:55

Well, chat rooms definitely won't work, as the people on this board hail from drastically different time zones.

A restart: Well, as much as I play loosey-goosey with the Warhammer Canon, I think that you would not get much support for a variant based on an entirely new continent. Most Mordheim fans like their GW minis, and to put it someplace that you invented would put a few players off. You do have a few options:

~Pick a far off locale - Master and I once tried to do an Ind campaign... it's distant enough that there would be no Reiklanders or anyone else showing up. Luckily, the Warhammer world is a dark mirror of our own world, so all it would take to write one is a grim version of India. The only thing that really stopped us was Master's and my own complete lack of knowledge on INDIA (outside of Indiana Jones films and the odd legend.) There are lots of locations in the Warhammer world- spend an hour or two on google learning what you can about them, and see if you feel inspired.

~Pick a small locale - Inventing an entire continent would be ballsy, but most fans would forgive you if you invent a small island. As stated above, however, it has to be grounded in SOMETHING, be it Warhammer lore or real world. Is it a cold version of Newfoundland, with Dark Elves from the West, and Norse from the East? Is it string of islands in the Philipines, full of island hopping natives and tiki gods? Obviously, if you build an island so far off that it's never heard of the Empire, it will not have Caucasian Barons and Lords on it... it will something foreign, something alien.

~Play with Time - Not my number one pick, but in theory, you could always play with the chronology. Set it 300 years in the future of Warhammer, with steam engines for all- fans could convert it with a mix of fantasy and 40k bits.. Or set it back in time - "Relics of the Crusade" set their campaign in pre-blackpowder days, why not put it in pre-SIGMAR days? There is no Empire, only maruading tribes of men (much like Conan, really.)

~Dig-deep - I've completely abandonned the idea now, but back in highschool, I dreamed of creating subterrainian races for warhammer - mole men, arachne, fungus men, etc... not going to fly now, but I thought I'd spit it out.

If you like the mordehim rules but want to try something drastically different, may I recommend the "Legends of the Old West" game from Warhammer Historical? It's basically a version of the mordheim rules for (reality based) cowboy gangs. (They also have a pirate setting too.)
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PostSubject: Re: Where have all the interesting Rules threads gone?   Mon 7 Feb 2011 - 14:50

What about doing a southlands game setting? I do not know if much fluff is around for that area but I know Khemri is down that way some, Lizardmen (almost all skinks though if I remember correct, and they use bows not blowguns), Orcs, Humans (tribal and Araby explorers/merchants), and Skaven.

Any projects doing similar for that yet? I'm just worried it would become another Lustria (nothing wrong with that, but not much drive for it).

I can imagine it similar to Border Town Burning (if they don't mind us using ideas!). But centered around Old Ones instead of chaos. Lots of savannah, jungle, desert and coastal areas. Lots of chances for open field combat, but enough terrain and what-not. I like the idea of a lot of random encounters with tribes or wild animals. Imagine you are hunting rat-men on the open plains at night and you stumble into a lion pride.

As for new potential teams the goal would be to promote modeling and fun things so maybe:
-A tribal people who fight alongside trained war-animals. So a 20 max warband, but most their henchmen are animals. Would be terrible in mordheim, but great on the plains.
-A variant on lizardmen for the southlands of mostly skinks and lots of mobile shooting and stealth
-A variant of skaven, since I would think Eshin would not be around there much unless they are researching poison or animals
- Zulu-style warriors (maybe modify the Mahud models from LOTR or such?)

Dark Elves could be around, as could human mercenaries as explorers, a varient of the Merchant Warband from BTB could work well with the Cathayan influence traded for southlands.
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PostSubject: Re: Where have all the interesting Rules threads gone?   Mon 7 Feb 2011 - 15:49

Balrog: Not a bad idea. Why don't you take this latest post and repost it in a separate thread?
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PostSubject: Re: Where have all the interesting Rules threads gone?   Mon 7 Feb 2011 - 15:50

Wilco, and sorry about the double post, don't know what happened. Can a mod clean that up for me? Thanks guys! Always cleaning up our messes... Newspaper whack
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