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Saranor
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PostSubject: Re: Location, Location, Location   Wed 1 Jun 2011 - 4:43

this forum needs an "Agree" Button.

instead of retraining you can go to a school (martial Arts, myrmidia Tempel for Tactic-Seminars) for special training. You gain access to new Skills.

Example:
Martial Arts (you need the combat list available for this location):
- weaponless fighting...
Gladiators Training Grounds (you need the combat list available for this location):
- special Gladiator skills
Myrmidias Tactic Symposium (you need academic and combat Skills for this location):
- perhaps Skills like Hunch, Tactican

The Option for retraining may be tempting, but i am not sure, if you can explain, why a warrior forget how to run fast (sprint) or how to use another range weapon and can now haggle with the merchants around.
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PostSubject: Re: Location, Location, Location   Wed 1 Jun 2011 - 6:18

Profile Pic: Aaah! Put it back! Put it back!
(heh heh heh... just pulling your lemming-like leg)


Retraining: Well, I guess you could argue it's about physique... there's more than one kind of "fit". When Schwartzenger was filming Conan, he had to stop his muscle-building program, because (I kid you not), he was so buff, his muscles were preventing him from holding the sword two-handed.

If you have a buy bulk up (learning a strength skill), they may no longer be able to run as quickly (as they are not 40 pounds heavier.) As for academic, maybe it changes how he looks / behaves. If a guy was "charming" before, and he switched Haggle for Fearsome, he's not going to silver-tongue the clerks any time soon.

I think the "learn new skills at locations" might work, PROVIDED that the hero just rolled a "skill" upgrade from the advancement list. Otherwise, a free skill without the proper experience is just asking to be broken (which is the major reason retraining makes you forgot one... all about balance.)

Monkey Paw: Yeah, I've never played with that sucker, but craziness seems to describe it quite succinctly. I think this is easier, because you know what you're getting- one skill in, one skill out. Maybe you had a hero who learned one or two shooting skills.... only to roll his next four advances and get wounds, attacks, and strength. Rather than have the worthless shooting skills sitting around doing nothing, you can retrain him to be a hth fighter.

And unlike the monkey paw, you don't lose heroes... yikes!
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PostSubject: Re: Location, Location, Location   Wed 1 Jun 2011 - 9:56

What if you did something where each hero can have ONE and only one trained skill from locations. So if you want to learn a new one he gives up the old one. Then it should not become broken, and represents a expensive training regime rather than a fully learned and natural skill as exp does.

So if Bobenstein Von Strangle trained in Strongman then wants to learn Haggle, he spends his time learning Haggle but no longer has time to keep up his massive diet and strength training. However he could then go back to his training but without the constant interactions with merchants he begins to lose track of the ebb and flow of Mordheim's black market and no longer gains benefit from Haggle. I would also venture that it should be no easier to switch back to a skill you already knew mostly for game balance.

Obviously not every skill applies to this, but Locations should not allow ANY skill in my opinion, but only those that make sense to be able to learn via intensive training rather than experience.

Some skills I would suggest:
Haggle
Strongman
Sprint
Jump
Knife Fighter
(Special minor version of weapon master/expert that allows a single weapon only)
Etc.

This would allow you to modify a hero's skills to fit the metagame, but by adding to the current rules instead of changing a rule. I don't know if I like the full 'respec' thing as much unless on something very risky ie Monkey Paw (which I hate anyways).
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PostSubject: Re: Location, Location, Location   Wed 1 Jun 2011 - 12:06

Fighting Schools
Yup I've included an entry for this in my list of places to visit in the post battle sequence; Instructor. There would be various academies (fighting schools, university, dojo) in a city where skills could be learned for a fee during campaigns.

The idea of paying to learn a combat, strength, shooting, academic or special skill (Cathayan fighting skill!?) that is an off-list selection) has always appealed to me. Of course, you would have to wait until a new skill is naturally available to the warrior.

Another option helping to balance this type of advance is to 'sting' the player with another cost; time as well as gold crowns. ie, Make the warrior skip the next battle in order to train.

Auction Houses
The way auction houses are run in the Warhammer World is as follows; The ruling merchant houses of a province will have imposed laws affecting commerce. They don't let just any riff-raff in to participate. Due to the exclusive nature of the these places, it would be unlikely that Heroes from a warband would visit one unless it was to pull a job. That does lend weight to having a special scenario involving a heist of sorts on an auctioneers.
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PostSubject: Re: Location, Location, Location   Wed 1 Jun 2011 - 20:45

Instructor: That makes sense. You're not going to learn academic skills from a pit fighter. "Now give me twenty push-ups, Wizard... with your BRAIN!"

Skills: Sounds great. Be sure to include the Ostalnder ones (although, those might fit better at the tavern.) In which case, it might be a "learn a skill for a game, roll 1D6: on a 6, you keep it permanently).

Instructor: lots of money + skill advance = your choice of "extra party" skill
ale house: little money = temporary random skill

Oooh, maybe the Temple can offer the Sister of Sigmarite skills as well as the Holy Skills from Relics.

Auction House Scenario: Sounds frickin' awesome. Can't wait to hear more.

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PostSubject: Re: Location, Location, Location   Thu 2 Jun 2011 - 14:03

Ostlander skills eh? Taunt has already been adopted by one of the Heroes types for the first of the new Marienburg 'gangs'. This was a perfect match for the background of the character type.

Ok hit me with a concise (shorter is better, maybe 6?) list of which skills you think should be able to be 'learned' in exchange for cold hard cash.

It would be nice to include one from the Battle Monks list to represent visiting dojos of the martial arts. Another one from the Ostlander skills you say. Shooting skills I've got covered already... Haggle, Strongman, Sprint, and Jump Up have also been put forward, so far...

Quote :
"Now give me twenty push-ups, Wizard... with your BRAIN!"

Ha ha quality!
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PostSubject: Re: Location, Location, Location   Thu 2 Jun 2011 - 16:32

What about the Pirate skill 'Swashbuckler' (TC09)? Works wonderfully embedded into its nautical / Errol-Flynnesque theme, but, not necessarily tied to that, it would also perfectly represent any kind of fluid and smooth hit-and-run fighting style one could learn in an institution for refined and elegant manslaughter, methinks.

Likewise, the Orcs' ''Eadbasher' (Annual) would work well as a generic school of 'dirty fighting' that teaches the will- and forceful connection of the enemy's capital region with the own sword hilt, sabre basket, axe handle &c. to increase the traumatising effects of the encounter.

For unarmed combat, maybe two skills - one just negating the penalties for fighting without a weapon, and the other, 'advanced' one corresponding to the Battle Monks' 'Energy Focus' (BTB)?

Oh, and sorry for the rude interruption, you two, but this thread is just great. Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Location, Location, Location   Thu 2 Jun 2011 - 20:42

In regards to fluff, it has to be something that someone could physically LEARN. A thick skin doesn't really make too much sense. With that in mind:

Combat: Weapons Trainingi sthe most fun of the comb skills, but considering most of the heroes who don't have access to comb are breakable support heroes, "step aside" would be the most "popularly demanded" skill.

Shooting: If MiM is as piratey as I suspect, Pistolier would be best. In other settings, Weapons Expert.

Academic: Haggles good, although Arcane Lore and Streetwise are two other good contenders. Maybe split them into two instructors, a Merchant and an Arcane, considering they're so vastly different?

Strength: Strongman's a great skill, but for flavor purposes, I like Pit Fighter better. To gain it, you could waive pay, but have to participate in a series of fights. After each game, any ONE uninjured hero may join a Pit Fight as his Shopping Roll. The hero makes a Strength Test. If he passes, he has gains a Pit Victory. If he rolls over his Strength, he has failed. If he rolls a natural 6, he will always fail and the hero rolls for Serious Injury. Win or lose, he can only visit the pit once per post game. Once a hero has won 5 Pit Victories (3?) you may learn Pit Fighter as your next skill advance, regardless of whether your hero can learn Strength Skills. (Or to be nice, in lieu of your next advancement- it's automatically a skill.)

Speed: Jump Up's good. A climbing one could be fun too.

special: a few good ones:

Holy skills: Iron faith (a 5+ save against spells) (or the sister version, which is 4+... I like the 5+ better, as it keeps the Sisters as being special, and makes Faith equal to Step aside and dodge)

Spells: Light (from relics) - casts a lantern

Chaos: The "mutant" skill would be cool, but superflous with the mutation rules you wrote.

Elven: Fey Quickness (elves only!)

Assassin: Master of Poisons (great for the setting)

Dwarf: Master of Blades (probably dwarves only... hmm)

Thieves: Stealthy (from Halfling) - Can hide within 8" of an enemy, and can run if an enemy's within 8" (if the thief starts and ends his turn hiding. Outlaws only.

Ruffians: Taunt

Pirate: Swashbuckler (agreed, this skill has so much flavor behind it)

Could also have a "Knowledge of the Law", which grants Hatred against Outlaws. Or, instead, a Naval themed skill that grants Hatred against Dark Elves and Pirates.

(Yeah, so much for succinct. Sorry about that.)

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PostSubject: Re: Location, Location, Location   Sat 4 Jun 2011 - 11:46

@Mephysto - The special skills for pirate crews from Town Cryer #9 are undesirable.

Whilst there are other merits to the Shiver Me Timbers article, the special skills have been poorly conceived. The way they are worded in particular is not of equal quality to other Mordheim material. They are badly scribed making just enough sense for players to be able to game with them.

Swashbuckler (the skill) appears to be the exception in terms of playability. The wording is still horrible but the effect is worth having! However, it is not used by a Swashbuckler Hired Sword. I rate the Hired Sword's two unique special skills (Nimble & Charismatic) very highly in terms of flavour and playability for a Swashbuckling character. As such I used both of his skills for adding character to a new Marienburg pirate warband.

Of the other pirate skills you have 'Sea Shanty Singer' which is not fitting. I refer to the skill 'Songster' instead as a more appropriate way to represent a shanty singer in battle.

I will also mention here that the skill 'Expert Rigger' possessed by Boatswains bears zero relevance to the rigging of watercraft. In Marienburg, there will be a new skill called 'Rigger' which does allow crew to rig and repair vessels.

In addition to the above comments, a fair amount of the 'Shiver Me Timbers' article does not feel like it is set in the Warhammer World. This comment is being made by someone who has read lots of the stories.

@Styro - Pit Fighter is a fantastic skill. This one more fitting to learn than other Strength skills. There are underworld locations I have in mind for a separate chapter to the marketplace where this skill would be useful to have; Baiting pits, fighting pits and the like being sites of illegal repute. Strongman is certainly desirable but it does not feel like a skill that would be learned by visiting an instructor. Pit Fighter would seem the logical choice.

Unarmed fighting is something nice to allow to remain as being exclusive to certain characters. I have applied a keyword to this ('Prize-fighter') for characters in Marienburg who have what is essentially the same ability as the Battle Monks of Cathay.

Taunt and Fey Quickness work more like traits of certain races/tribes of people. This is true of a number of skills. In Warhammer roleplay traits are differentiated from skills. In Mordheim, they are one and the same. I would air some caution in respect of when to apply a skill that is more a physical trait. For instance you would not expect an elf to possess skills like 'Foul Odour' or 'Bull Rush'.

Iron Faith is a watered duplication of Protection of Sigmar. I would give that one a miss.

Where do you find 'Knowledge of the Law'? Hatred towards outlaws and bandits was covered in Nemesis Crown supplements Horned Hunters warband.

Hang the Bandit!: A Horned Hunter hates all Bandits and Outlaws.


Is Acrobat more desirable as a speed skill to learn from an Instructor than say Sprint or Jump Up?

Another suggestion from Mephysto - Does the Energy Focus skill come across as being the best/fluffiest Cathayan skill to learn when visiting a dojo?

Does Swashbuckler skill warrant further consideration? If so, should a different keyword be applied to avoid confusion between the special skill and Hired Sword?

The archetype combat skill to learn from a master of arms would be 'Expert Swordsman'. Anyone seen the sword-fighting instructor in the new HBO television series Games of Thrones? He's rather entertaining. Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Location, Location, Location   Sat 4 Jun 2011 - 17:50

werekin wrote:
@Mephysto - The special skills for pirate crews from Town Cryer #9 are undesirable.
[...]
In addition to the above comments, a fair amount of the 'Shiver Me Timbers' article does not feel like it is set in the Warhammer World. This comment is being made by someone who has read lots of the stories
Aye! Which is exactly why my own privateers follow the standard Marienburger rules (and why I am so looking forward to the new nautical shinies MiM promises). Razz
But the Swashbuckler skill remains the one thing I really miss in the standard Mercenary context (well, apart from the possibility of press-ganging Wink), and which would - in a reworded form - really be 'unspecific' but interesting enough (in the sense of its not being tied to a shipboard context - however fitting this shipboard context itself might be -, but simply and generally describing a fast and elegant fighting style which emphasizes connecting with and disconnecting from the enemy in quick succession) to warrant its place in the 'learning by paying' section.
The standard optional rules for disengaging from close combat (trying to leave the melêe at the beginning of your own Movement phase) are similar enough to use, I admit, so without Swashbuckler being available to learn for everyone, the fighting style it envisions could still be emulated adequately enough by resorting to the standard rules, but the option the Swashbuckler skill gives (being able to disconnect at the end of everyone's Close Combat phase) is still a little fluffy step ahead, in my opinion.


werekin wrote:

Another suggestion from Mephysto - Does the Energy Focus skill come across as being the best/fluffiest Cathayan skill to learn when visiting a dojo?
I would say aye - for an outsider, like most visitors would be.
Personally, I find the Human Shield even a tad more awesome and fluffy, but for the exact reason you state, I would rate Energy Focus the reachable peak for an 'amateur' (compared to someone like a Battle Monk) in unarmed fighting and leave this awesomeness to the 'professionals':
werekin wrote:
Unarmed fighting is something nice to allow to remain as being exclusive to certain characters. I have applied a keyword to this ('Prize-fighter') for characters in Marienburg who have what is essentially the same ability as the Battle Monks of Cathay.


werekin wrote:
Does Swashbuckler skill warrant further consideration? If so, should a different keyword be applied to avoid confusion between the special skill and Hired Sword?
In my opinion, aye to both.
Maybe naming it something generally Blitzkriegy (in association with the Hit-and-Run style the skill depicts - maybe simply 'Hit and Run' itself? Razz), or something like (just random ideas) 'Lightning / Elegant Fencer', 'Uncatchable' / 'Catch Me if You Can', 'Out of Reach', 'In and out', 'Smash and Dash' ...?


werekin wrote:
The archetype combat skill to learn from a master of arms would be 'Expert Swordsman'. Anyone seen the sword-fighting instructor in the new HBO television series Games of Thrones? He's rather entertaining. Wink
I thought ol' Syrio was quite the dancing master indeed. Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Location, Location, Location   Sat 4 Jun 2011 - 20:15

Prize Fighter: Nice name.

Iron Faith: Yes, a little watered-down, but it fits. A sister who is honestly pure and devotes all her life for Sigmar gets a 4+ save. A mere layman with a more spotted past gets a 5+ bonus.

Knowledge of the Law: No existing basis, though it is similar to the Hunters. Came up with it on the spot.

Acrobat: Not sure it it's better, but it hit me as a Thieves guild sort of thing. Something like that (or scale sheer) has a fun image along with it. You say "sprint" and "jump up" doesn't really inspire me with anything.

Swashbuckler: Awesome skill.

Expert Swordsman: Definitely the best "tutored" skill, but from a practical standpoint, I can't imagine too many players will take their heroes without combat skill access and say "let's charge them straight at the enemy!" My only hesitation.
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PostSubject: Re: Location, Location, Location   Sun 5 Jun 2011 - 10:00

Send your TLGT ghoul to school, to officially become an Expert Swordsman. Ha ha. Wink

The fighting style for a swashbuckler is an easy one. Watch as your swashbuckling warrior swaggers in and out of combat...

Swashbuckler = Swagger


All the heroes in the stories with Iron Faith are devout Sigmarites. ie, the Witch hunters. Seems to be a gaping oversight in the warband &/or campaign rules here!!

Connected topic: Still skill-related... Rather than having an advanced (optional) rule for promoting the use of shields, I have included Bulwark skill on the new skill list for MiM. The new rules consolidates skills from BTB alongside new campaign friendly skills.

With previous comments in mind I'd also like to include something so we see a proper showing from the Witch hunters. Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Location, Location, Location   Sun 5 Jun 2011 - 23:00

werekin wrote:
Send your TLGT ghoul to school, to officially become an Expert Swordsman. Ha ha. Wink

Which will extremely helpful when he can't access "weapons expert" and swords themselves...


Swashbuckler = Swagger


Sounds good, but for clarification, I'd add at the end, "Note: This is the same skill as 'Swashbuckler', from the Pirate Warband by Tim Huckelbury. It is been renamed to avoid confusion with the Swashbuckler hired sword."

Quote :
All the heroes in the stories with Iron Faith are devout Sigmarites. ie, the Witch hunters. Seems to be a gaping oversight in the warband &/or campaign rules here!!

Yet, the current witch hunters have NO divine protection (outside of prayers), suggesting that they SHOULD have access to SOME sort of divine skill.

Quote :

Connected topic: Still skill-related... Rather than having an advanced (optional) rule for promoting the use of shields, I have included Bulwark skill on the new skill list for MiM. The new rules consolidates skills from BTB alongside new campaign friendly skills.

What is Bulwark?

The new skills I'm trying with Bretonnians to promote shield are:
Shield Bash - May may additional hit with shield. Counts as -1S Hammer hit.
Bulging Muscles - Gain +1 S from morning star each turn (from pit fighters... if you pump up "awkward" weapons, the use of shields will naturally increase).
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PostSubject: Re: Location, Location, Location   Mon 6 Jun 2011 - 1:07

StyrofoamKing wrote:
werekin wrote:

Swashbuckler = Swagger

Sounds good, but for clarification, I'd add at the end, "Note: This is the same skill as 'Swashbuckler', from the Pirate Warband by Tim Huckelbury. It is been renamed to avoid confusion with the Swashbuckler hired sword."
I don't actually like the idea of changing the name of the skill (although a note is a good idea if the skill name will be changed). I don't like having the same skill in existence with two different names (e.g. "Quick Reload" for Marksmen in the Gunnery School of Nuln which is just "Hunter" by another name and actually says the skill is the same as "Hunter" - on my warband roster I always just write "Hunter" as it requires less brain power than remembering "oh that's right it's the same skill"). I understand your reasoning but I think that it adds more complexity than it solves. If there was an "Acrobat" hired sword for say the CoC warband then would you change the name of the "Acrobat" skill for example?
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PostSubject: Re: Location, Location, Location   Mon 6 Jun 2011 - 4:27

Swashbuckler--I am a bit confused as to why the skill would need to be re-named just this once. After all Pitfighter is a skill and a hired sword in the main rule book (and as usual the Pitfighter doesn't have the skill of the same name.)

I am late to this party, but my 2 cents would be that the 'Locations' function under discussion would be better served as:
Hired Swords--Legends of the Old West and Legends of the High Seas have hired sword Navigators, Saw Bones/Surgeon, Cooks, etc. which perform the same function as the Mordheim 'location'. Why visit a Merchant when you can hire him...
Entries on customized Exploration Charts--writing the Locations takes effort, etc. Why not customize an Exploration Chart to include the same possibilities?
Scenarios--instead of 'visiting' a 'location' why not add the random bits to an existing scenario or write one to fit. Such an approach would not work with every type of Location but...
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PostSubject: Re: Location, Location, Location   Mon 6 Jun 2011 - 7:15

Hmm. As much as I love the Settlement Event chart, Kurst does have a point... why have one more "event" chart, when you already have one?

I do cite a friend of mine who developed a Man o War / Mordheim campaign years ago... on doubles, he rolled on Mordheim events. On straigthts (ex. 2, 3, 4), you rolled on a nautical event chart. Might be a way to include more events without requiring more rolls.
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PostSubject: Re: Location, Location, Location   Mon 6 Jun 2011 - 13:09

I hadn't even noticed that Pitfighter is a skill type and a character name. That's a really good point though. However, I think if the skill going to re-appear in an article with my name on it then the chances are that the wording will undergo a shrift clean-up.

I had no clue that Quick Reload aka Hunter existed, as I have barely looked at Gunnery School warbands. That was worked on by Ian and the Portbury Knights gaming group, with background written by Rev. In that sense it does seem silly to have one skill going by two names.

What I had in mind was a bit simpler than requiring tables for settlements. Organising locations into charts to determine "where" you end up seems a bit bizarre for when your Hero is going shopping. Surely he will walk into the intended store/location.

"Good day to you mein herr," beamed the clerk, as a darkly cloaked figure strode between the aisles.
"I have come to stock up on blessed hawthorn stakes," snarled the Witch Hunter.
"Begging your pardon sir but all we sell here is Bretonnian cream-cheeses," whimpered the clerk.
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PostSubject: Re: Location, Location, Location   Mon 6 Jun 2011 - 20:23

Charts: I think the charts referenced were random events that happened to heroes as they walked about, rather than "roll to find which location you reach".

Although, I can definitely see that was one of the exploration results:

Hole In the Wall: You find a location that is hidden away from view.

Maybe it lets you access ONE location you otherwise couldn't.
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PostSubject: Re: Location, Location, Location   Thu 9 Jun 2011 - 14:51

Well done sir. I have built up a mahoosive long list of cool hooks which are set to become random happenings, exploration results and the like. One of these is 'Priest Hole' and here I think you've just determined what this one will be used for. Wink

I will tie the Priest Hole in to visiting dens of ill repute, because a Hero might well stumble across a secreted entry to one in battle and return when the heat has died down.

Some of the useful entries from Encampments may get factored into my haps and explore tables.

The locations I am concerning myself with at the moment are those purely mercantile operations.
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PostSubject: Re: Location, Location, Location   Thu 9 Jun 2011 - 20:25

Hey, what I'm here for. Anything you need us idea rats scampering/brainstorming about, or shall we let you stew over your secret, secret machinations?
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PostSubject: Re: Location, Location, Location   Fri 10 Jun 2011 - 11:47

Bring back all the good rules topics someone said recently... The more stuff that gets developed via this forum discussion then the our campaigns are going to be!

Can't go wild with my own random event creations just yet. They must be integrated. I wanna do this weaving at an earlier stage of development than was done in BTB (ie, before scenarios are finalised) to maximise the impact each entry has in the narrative. Taking it to the next level. My focus in that quarter has been on making reams of notes supporting rich fluff.

More energy is going into processing existing ideas that work across the board for city campaigns plus reorganising forgotten gems. Let's make them whole and feel like they connect! I would like everyone to be able to engage with some glorious aspects of 'advanced' campaigning that get passed off as 'optional' rules.

Oh and the gangs! Everyone wants to see and hear more about the new warbands... even if I don't fully have a handle on the plot integration, yet.
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PostSubject: Re: Location, Location, Location   Sat 11 Jun 2011 - 22:48

Fair enough... don't really know too much how to do that, but I'll see what I can do.

Some things hit me:

Valuables: what is the currency of the realm in Marienburg? Wyrdstone, treasure? In Sartosa, I use Cargo... but rather than just leaving it as a name swap, I let each player have the option of opening 1 cargo each post-game... it contained a random item of piratey-theme. You don't have to copy the same thing exactly, but if it has additional uses beyond it's selling rate, that'd add a lot to the flavor.

One consideration is to use / invent an item that costs 15gc. That way, it can be sold as wyrdstone (25-45gc for the first, for each 5-15 gc after), can be sold at a trading place (for 7gc, although skills like the Merchant's Trading may increase his), or simply used by a hero. Holy relics work great (although, fluff wise, it might fit other locations better.)

Although, I guess you could extend it into a sort of base non-metric system:
Holy Relic = equal 15 gc or 1 wyrdstone
black powder = equal 30gc or 2 wyrdstone
Cathayan silk - equal 50gc or 3 wyrdstone.

In which case you could trade with another player anything of equal Wyrd value. Kinda complex, but you liked the trading idea, so I thought I'd mention it.
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PostSubject: Re: Location, Location, Location   Tue 14 Jun 2011 - 14:46

Man that is way complicated. I prefer gold crowns and treasures to rocket science! One wyrdstone shard = one treasure. Marienburg gold guilders are equal in value to Karls.
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PostSubject: Re: Location, Location, Location   Tue 14 Jun 2011 - 20:40

Agreed... that was an extreme example. Still, I think you should have fun with Treasure. Maybe have an Appraiser location? A treasure-based equal to the Wyrdstone alchemist?

for 20 gc, he can examine a treasure more closely, to learn if it can be sold for less than market value, more than value, whether it's really a minor artefact, an amazon Star weapon, or a long missing artefact from an influential noble family.

Maybe it's a painting that commemorates a long disputed historical fact (they were often used as wedding certificates or to mark other important dates.)
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PostSubject: Re: Location, Location, Location   Today at 7:28

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