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 Understanding the Lizard Warband

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Maedhros
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PostSubject: Understanding the Lizard Warband   Tue 7 Dec 2010 - 12:13

Hello there folks,

I'm new to Mordheim...ok, so freaking new that I haven't even gotten to play a game yet, though I've played fantasy and 40K for a few years now.

Anyhow, I'm thinking of making a Lizardman warband since I already have the models and I wanted to know a little bit about them.

For clarifications sake I was going to use what appears to be the published rules for them which can be found over at Mordheimer.com

http://www.mordheimer.com/warbands/unofficial/lizardmen.htm

Anyhow, as far as I can tell they seem to have heavily specialized units. The little guys are really freaking high move with good init but terrible toughness and the big guys are tough and slow with really bad init.

Do you guys have any suggestions for gear? I was thinking spears and javelins for the skinks (since they will need to strike first to survive) and twin swords for the suarus as the parries will be a good way to last till me init comes up and everyone says dual wield is so good that it's not optional barring house rules.

And after that do you guys have any tactics suggestions and are there any glaring weakness of lizards I need to be prepared for?

Thanks for your input.
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding the Lizard Warband   Tue 7 Dec 2010 - 12:47

I would recommend not using dual swords (unless you like the look) from a gameplay perspective. You only get one parry even if you have two swords.

Sword, Sheild Axe is a great combination for Saurus if you have the gold. The sheild adds to the scaly skin to protect well against arrows and then in melee you switch to two weapons. Although against daggers the sheild may shine since a 3+ save is really nice.

Skinks do well with Javelins due to fast move and decent BS. Spears are probably too expesive though for Skink henchmen. I would suggest just their dagger (or an extra if you can afford) and Javelins (or Shortbows if they can). Keeps them cheap, mobile and still OK in combat comparatively.

Clubs/Maces/Hammers are a great investment for any model. Cheap, no penalties, and they are good at knocking models senseless (stunned). Which another model can capitalize on and take them OOA.

Lizardmen are fun, but be prepared to be called Overpowered due to the armor rules. I usually house away the cannot be modified worse than 6+ part and that makes people happy.

Another tip on arming models in general is to make sure you have a good amount of ranged weapons if you plan on using them. One or two will just make your army slow down to shoot, or risk getting split up. But six javelins? That's fun.

One more thing: I do not know why but Javelins seem to really have it in for Dwarfs in Mordheim. My poor brother's Dwarfs fall in pairs to my Pit Fighter Javelins.
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding the Lizard Warband   Tue 7 Dec 2010 - 13:13

Thanks for the input. I was only going to put the spears on my two skink heros since they're a little more valuable. I can use shortbows over javelens at the same price, I just liked the no move and shoot penalty.

Well, yea I can see the un-modifable 6+ armor save is pretty damn good but i do only get 4 heros max which limits me in other areas.
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding the Lizard Warband   Tue 7 Dec 2010 - 14:52

Everyone's max heroes is the same - 6. You only *start* with four (which a few other warbands have), but you will be up to six in the fullness of time like everyone else.

Henchmen have a level-up result that sees them getting reclasified from henchmen to heroes.
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding the Lizard Warband   Tue 7 Dec 2010 - 16:17

oh, ok that's kinda cool. I would assume I can't buy more of the "leader" level units but I can go over the 0-1 and 0-2 hero restrictions using that level up?
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding the Lizard Warband   Tue 7 Dec 2010 - 16:22

You can make 2 Skink braves or 2 Saurus braves heroes if they roll the Lads Got Talent advancement. A LGT hero remains what it is (i.e. a skink brave), it does not become something else unless your warband has such a rule. Lizardmen do not have such a rule.
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding the Lizard Warband   Tue 7 Dec 2010 - 16:23

huh....so becoming a hero really just gives them access to more gear and the ability to explore and shop then. I'll do some more reading since I don't really understand this right now. Thanks for helping though
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding the Lizard Warband   Wed 8 Dec 2010 - 1:18

Heroes can gain more stat increases than henchmen, and also have access to skills, which is the real advantage. Your henchmen become heroes in the postbattle sequence, if they roll a Lad's got talent-advance, until you have a total of six heroes. You can never buy more heroes that the initial limitations admit.
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding the Lizard Warband   Wed 8 Dec 2010 - 5:55

stuff to keep in mind, the lizardmen are one of the only warbands that can repurchase their Leader model,

and so far i agree with everyone else, javalins...all the time
spears are too expensive
unless your going up against multiwound or really CC bands dont bother with the poison
and remember scaley skin is rediculously cool combined with shields.
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding the Lizard Warband   Wed 8 Dec 2010 - 8:06

I played Lizardmen things to keep in mind:

Infiltrate is one of the best skills in the game. In any snatch and grab scenarios there is no better skill.

Shields, it might seem counter to what you have played in the past, but shield plus the lizardmenís natural armor save is just a good combo.

Double Handed Weapon - Give your Hero Saurus a Double handed Weapon and Strongman and he becomes a killing machine, with free armor.

Skinks can take shooting skills, they are only with short bows or javelins, but getting one good shooter can be rather useful. I have won games because I had a good shooter. You can also get the Weapons Expert skill, and be able to use better ranged weapons.

Blow pipes cost too much, they would be cool if they cost less, or you found, them.

Poison is expensive to use game after game, but in some matches it might be worth looking into. If you are facing a warband that you have had trouble with or it is a do or die scenario then the poison can give you an extra edge.

Swords can only be on heroes, and you only get 1 parry no matter what. That means only buy 1 sword per hero, team that with a club or a shield.

Skinks have pretty good Initiative, so Spears can be worth it. Your plan of only 2 skinks with spears is a good idea. Set them up to intercept charges.

Saurus have a 4 movement which is average, not slow. They are not as fast as Skinks, but they are still average. Use the Skinks to flank the enemy, and support your charging saurus.

The bite attack on a Saurus, it is worded awkwardly, but it is still really good. You basically start with 2 attacks the bite attack has to go last, and it doesnít get any weapon bonuses but still pretty good. So going Club shield you are still getting 2 attacks and really good armor. Just remmember that you cannot use the bite attack to auto take-out someone who that same model knocked-down that turn.

Cold Blooded, I don't know how many times that saved me. There is nothing like looking at your rolls and you've got 3 dice, and picking the lowest 2. It makes leadership tests so much easier.

20 warband limit, use that to your advantage as much as possible.
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding the Lizard Warband   Wed 8 Dec 2010 - 10:42

Wow i had forgotten that they had a 20 limit. They rock so hard.

Another thing if you are going to only get one or two saurus with a 2Handed Weapon make that your hero so he finishes off enemies and gets the exp.
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding the Lizard Warband   Wed 8 Dec 2010 - 10:56

Lord 0 wrote:
Everyone's max heroes is the same - 6. You only *start* with four (which a few other warbands have), but you will be up to six in the fullness of time like everyone else.

Henchmen have a level-up result that sees them getting reclasified from henchmen to heroes.

Where is this rule (Max 6 per warband)?
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding the Lizard Warband   Wed 8 Dec 2010 - 14:15

In the Core Book, the section about Starting a Warband, under the Heading "Other Heroes":

other heroes
Apart from its leader, your warband may include up to
five other Heroes, who form the core of your
warband. A warband may never include more Heroes
of any specific type than the number given in the
Warband list. This means that some warbands can
only get the maximum of six Heroes by gaining
experience with their Henchmen (see the Experience
section).


There are a handful of Warbands that can start with 6 heroes, Skaven, Bretonnian, Pit Fighters, Outlaws Of the Stirwood Forest, I think are the only ones that GW put out, I think I have seen some Halfling Lists that allowed 6 starting heroes.
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding the Lizard Warband   Wed 8 Dec 2010 - 15:53

From an GM's perspective... Choose another warband!! LoL.

I say that because one of my mates loves the dragon-folk. She has played them in my last 3x campaigns, none of which were set in Lustria.

Writing the lizards into Mordheim, EiF, Khemrian, BTB or other campaigns is a challenge. While plenty of GM's and campaign idea developers would be quite pleased to never see another Lustrian warband grace the streets again, I have developed a soft spot for 'avenging outlanders' like Lizardmen, Amazons, Dark Elves etc.

Good luck with your new warband Maedhros. I've enjoyed the challenge of fitting your preferred (square-peg) choice of warband into past Mordheim campaigns.

Even though (hallelujah!) at my pal Michelle has found another warband to represent her hopes & dreams in the next campaign I'm running, you can expect to see some detailed relevant excuses for the dragon-folk to wind up in Marienburg campaigns because we relish the opportunity of overseeing a set of urban objectives for the scaly bastards to participate... Wink

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Werekin.
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Maedhros
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding the Lizard Warband   Sat 11 Dec 2010 - 15:08

Rudeboy - that is exactly the kind of practical advice I was looking for, thank you!

Werekin - I'm not sure if that was encouragement or not =P.

My thought for why they might be there is similar to why lizards might be anywhere. There are remnants of their portal network all over the globe. And who's to say some of it might not still work erratically.

In particular to Mordheim (I have no idea where they local group might set it's campaign) the decent of a warpstone comet would probably not go un-noticed by the Slann and they might have deployed a strike force to attempt to assess and contain the corruption flooding the land.
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding the Lizard Warband   Sun 12 Dec 2010 - 7:54

I have played Lizardmen in several campaigns now, but that's over a 10 yr period and only in Lustria.

Skinks--I don't like to fight with the braves at all. They shoot and melt back into the jungle at the first sign of trouble. With move 6 they can escape most enemies especially if there is jungle involved.
I do like to have 1 or 2 brand new skinks to use as bait. They draw charges so the saurus can pounce on things.
I like the short bows for range. I don't take javelins unless I get a strength increase. The short range means the skinks are too close to the enemy for my taste. All skinks get an extra dagger to start and might get a club later, if they live that long.

Skink heroes--become snipers and infiltrators. And oft times fighters becasue they go mad. I have seen more frenzied skinks...

Saurus--fight, fight, fight and fight some more. Great vampire hunters. (I give the braves swords to start because I like the parry as an added defense.)

Combined arms--I like to keep a swarm of skinks near the saurus. If the terrain is favorable the skinks will harrass the enemy with missiles. Then the noob draws the charge and the saurus counter charge. As the enemy falls skinks can rush out and dispatch the fallen.
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding the Lizard Warband   Sun 12 Dec 2010 - 8:16

A buddy of mine played a Lizardmen-Warband in a regular Mordheim-Campaign. I have a really bad memory about the skink-shaman with frenzy-spell. Due to some special rule he could make one diceroll per game succeed automatically, so his A4-Saurustank would have frenzy everytime needed. If played right, it is very hard to get rid of the shaman beforehand. And they almost never rout, if the player doesn't want to. Very annoying to play against.
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding the Lizard Warband   Sun 12 Dec 2010 - 8:48

A House Rule that takes frenzy down to +1 attack would seem to be in order. I just rolled this spell for an advance and I'm feeling like my Lizards have just lapped the field as it is.

The special rule is Mark of the Old Ones probably worth the 50gc if I could just remember that I have it... scratch
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding the Lizard Warband   Sun 12 Dec 2010 - 9:37

I would like to remain fairly neutral on the matter Maedhros.

The Old Ones may have fled the Warhammer World but their prehistoric legacy lives on... Somebody has to fly the flag. If it's you then good luck matey! You're really going to need it soon as your kroxigor gets bitch-slapped like the overgrown newt he is! Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Understanding the Lizard Warband   Mon 13 Dec 2010 - 6:45

Fluff-wise - They make some sense in Khemri, as there are Lizardmen in the Southlands too. There's even fluff in one of the rule books about Arabyans meeting with a group of Lizardmen on a diplomatic mission, if I recall.
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding the Lizard Warband   Tue 14 Dec 2010 - 12:13

You've gotta learn to quote your source 'King. That's the memory game challenge! Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding the Lizard Warband   Tue 14 Dec 2010 - 12:55

Well, I can't remember it exactly, but it looks like another source has verified my ranting- er, recollection.

http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/Araby

It was also in 1150 Ibn Jellaba a famous explorer of Araby discovered the lost Lizardmen city of Zlatlan. There he was welcomed (since the Slann predicted his arrival) he was able to barter with the peaceful lizardmen and exchanged the pearls and spices of Araby for gold to which the Lizardmen agreed very happily since gold held no meaning to them, he returned to Araby a very rich man after establishing the first trade agreement between Lizardmen and humans.

AND
http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/Southlands

The first humans to probe along the [Southlands] coast were Arabian merchants search for spice, gold and other valuable commodities. In an attempt to avoid conflict with the Elves they tried to find a land route across the continent.1 p23 The first to make contact with the Lizardmen, who the Arabs call Al SaurÓm, was the trader and scholar Ibn Jellaba, who set out from Ka-Sabar in around 1150 IC. He penetrated the jungle and met with the Lizardmen of Zlatlan. His requests for an overland trade route were denied by the Slann, although his charts and maps were copied to help the Mage-Priests understand the shape of the world better. Ibn Jellaba accompanied the Lizardmen on a raid into the Land of the Dead to retrieve the mummified body of a captured Slann, before returning home with all the treasure captured by the raid.1 p6-8
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding the Lizard Warband   Wed 15 Dec 2010 - 1:28

In terms of producing your own stuff, I found Wiki to be largely useless because the users fail to quote where they find stuff. The Southlands researcher has oddly noted page numbers here!

One would imagine that the material would be derived from one of the colourful Lizardmen army book releases. In particular the latest publication led by Andy Hoare gives brilliant insights into the dragon-folk.

For anyone interested in them, I recommend the Florin & Lorenzo adventures as your first port of call. The first story in the trilogy (Burning Shore) is set in Lustria, and the short story (Haute Cuisine) included in the omnibus are must reads for Lizardmen fans. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Understanding the Lizard Warband   Wed 15 Dec 2010 - 8:00

Wel, the first was NOT cited, but the second entry was welled cited indeed. If you follow the link, it'll mention that the "1 pg. 23" refers to the 5th Ed. Lizardmen book.

Thanks for the info on the Black Library books... although generally, I've known Black Library authors to twist around facts a little... not to say I blame them. It's hard to write in a prison, so sometimes you have to conviently ignore a precedent or two for the sake of good literature.
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding the Lizard Warband   Wed 15 Dec 2010 - 17:35

There have certainly been instances of authors getting not getting their facts straight and their knickers twisted (come on it's got to be appreciated that keep continuity is a tricky business!) but as a general rule the appointed loremasters get a lot of everything right.

The published BL authors have the privilege and responsibility of coherently developing and enhancing the background of these games we love to play. This works to their benefit (they get paid) and ours (we get entertained).

If you check the BL web site you watch author interviews it's usually confirmed how they research from source books like crazy, read each others novels, and natter for days about how to progress stories based on ritually observing the lore. There's a nice one with Graham McNeill just been added for instance.

Having read a bunch of the fantasy novels (not nearly enough!) it's safe for me to say what a great job these gents have been doing. It keeps getting better which makes it hard to choose what to read. We just have to hope it continues...! Smile

In March a friend of mine and I will be heading to Warhammer World to attend the Black Library Live event. 350 readers meeting 8 authors. Not much of a clue as to what we can expect but it's a great chance to pay our respects, find out more about how it all works, ask a few questions, down a few pints of Bugman's XXXXXX and talk about our favourite settings like Mordheim, Lustria, Khemri, Cathayan Borderlands, Northern Wastes, Sartosa, and Marienburg!

Regards,

Stuart.
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