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 Spells without targets and Line of Sight

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Krashlandon
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PostSubject: Spells without targets and Line of Sight   Mon 29 Nov 2010 - 16:02

According to the Q&A in TC#12, p. 43:
Quote:
Quote :
Spells cannot be targeted at models which are out of line of sight. However, models which are out of sight may still be affected by spells with an area effect provided another model is targeted and they fall within the spells' radius.

Now spells such as 'Warpfire' and 'Fires of U'Zhul' do not mention any targets. Instead they simply hit the first model in their path.
Quote :
The spell has a range of X, hitting the first model in it path.

The question/concern I have is that it has been argued in our playgroup that since you are not targeting a model but casting it in a direction that there is no restriction on needing to target a model so any models that are hidden or out of sight are still fair game. Also it has been argued that since the spell says it 'hits the first model' without any mention of terrain then any intervening terrain is irrelevant and does not affect the spell.

So the way this plays out in our group is that these spells, and others with the same wording, are being used to shoot models that are inside of castle walls, on the other side of hills and rocks, heck even in BTB - Horrors of the Underground they are being used to shoot models through solid rock that the opposing warband does not even have eyes on.

This seems like a really powerful effect to me and am against this line of thinking but I find that the rules do not support me very well in arguing for a Line of Sight restricted use of these spells.

I would like a community response to this issue so that we can resolve this issue in out playgroup.
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RationalLemming
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PostSubject: Re: Spells without targets and Line of Sight   Mon 29 Nov 2010 - 17:30

Unless specifically mentioned by the spell, spells such as these are blocked by terrain. I doubt that this is in a published FAQ but I'm sure that I remember the Mordheim ANSWER MOD Da Bank (whose rulings are official rulings) has said this is the case so I'll try to find one of those forum posts.
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Von Kurst
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PostSubject: Re: Spells without targets and Line of Sight   Mon 29 Nov 2010 - 17:44

I do love the sophistry that denies that the first model in its path is a target, but such is gaming. In one thread we argue that because a spell specifically mentions ingnoring terrain all things are possible, in another that because a spell doesn't mention terrain all things are possible. Conclusion, all things are possible.

I do think that the rules do support you rather than not, but I suppose I would be accused of being activist or something.
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Eagle5
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PostSubject: Re: Spells without targets and Line of Sight   Mon 29 Nov 2010 - 21:55

I wouldn't allow it simply for this reason: It hits the first model in it's path because it doesn't pass through things. If it could pass through solid stone/buildings/etc then surely it could pass through people too. I think the intention is that it hits the first solid thing it encounters, and I think they specified 'models' because they wanted friendly models to block it's trajectory (otherwise they'd have said 'first enemy'). I do not think they specified 'models' because they wanted it to go through terrain, and nothing about the spells indicate that it would go through walls. If they had wanted it to go through terrain, they would have easliy added in 'hits first model, ingoring terrain.'

Also, you already have one instance where a spell specifically states it ignores terrain, this implies that the others do not ignore terrain unless it is stated in their spell descriptions.
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RationalLemming
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PostSubject: Re: Spells without targets and Line of Sight   Mon 29 Nov 2010 - 23:51

One interesting thing to note is that both of these spells are mentioned in the "Let the Damned Burn" article from Town Cryer 8. These spells can be used to set buildings and terrain on fire. This means that these spells do in fact hit terrain.

I do not know the official status of this article. It was mentioned in the rules for the Torch piece of equipment that is in the Empire in Flames suppliment (refer below). The Empire in Flames suppliment is official so this implies to me that the article is official by default but I have never seen a statement anywhere that this article is actually official.

Quote :
Torch Common Cost: 2 GC
Warriors lacking the funds for a lantern may have to make do with torches. Torches act exactly as lanterns, adding +4" to the range the model may spot hidden enemies, but has a few other special rules as well. A torch will only last one game. A model armed with a torch counts as causing fear in animals (Hunting Dogs, all riding steeds, Bears, Wolves, etc), and may use a torch as a makeshift club. When used in combat, a torch is treated as a normal club, though with a -1 to hit modifier. Any models that have a Regeneration special rule (like Trolls) will not be able to regenerate wounds caused by a torch during the battle. (Torches may also cause buildings to catch fire – see ‘Let the Damned Burn’, from Town Cryer 8 ).

I hope that this helps. I'll also still try to find Da Bank's posts. Smile
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Lord 0
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PostSubject: Re: Spells without targets and Line of Sight   Tue 30 Nov 2010 - 0:36

In the group I play with we interpreted it to mean the first model was struck. If this is the model of a wall or a building or a warrior or a rabbit, whatever. It is struck. Made the rule very simple to evaluate.

"Is the thing in the path a 3d representation of something else?"
"Yes."
"Then it is hit".

Since we are all a pack of competative rules-lawers, we like interpretations that there is very little wiggle-room for.
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Von Kurst
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PostSubject: Re: Spells without targets and Line of Sight   Tue 30 Nov 2010 - 9:02

I do think that abdicating on the notion of 'target' is a mistake. The target is clearly the "first model in its path". Arguing it is not seems disingenuous. Thus it falls under the FAQ rule and the question is solved.

The North Koreans must be arguing from similar rules. "We did not kill your citizens they happened to be in front of our guns when we fired. Their actions caused their deaths not our cannons."
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PostSubject: Re: Spells without targets and Line of Sight   Tue 30 Nov 2010 - 9:33

I like the idea of it being a strait line and hitting anything would stop the spell.

It keeps the cheese that is shooting spells through terrian, or through friendly models.

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mweaver
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PostSubject: Re: Spells without targets and Line of Sight   Wed 1 Dec 2010 - 6:06

As is usually the case, I agree with Von Kurst - you are targeting that first model. Lord O's reasoning is also valid: it can't hit the model of the warrior hiding behind the model of the building because it hits the first model in its path.
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PostSubject: Re: Spells without targets and Line of Sight   Today at 23:56

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