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Eagle5
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PostSubject: Black Fury Question   Fri 26 Nov 2010 - 23:00

Black Fury - The Sorceror may immediately charge any enemy model within 12" (ignoring any terrian and interposing models) and gains 2 extra attacks and 1 strength during this turn's hand-to-hand combat phase only.

How does the charge work? I guess the core of the problem is that the way it's worded seems to make the normal rules of charging not apply for this spell. It is magic, after all, so it doesn't have to make any logical sense. It just seems a bit overpowered, if you ask me.

Let me put it this way. Player A says his Sorceror is casting Black Fury, *rolls dice* 10! Successful cast. Player A says he's charging the guy inside a building. Sorcerer does not have LoS and a solid wall blocks path to target. Player B says 'you can't see him, you can't charge him." Player A quotes the spell listing "Any enemy model within 12", that's an enemy model, and he's within 12" if I ignore terrain, which it says I do."

Taken literally it means that the rat , upon successful casting, can charge anything within a sphere of 12" around, below, or above it. For instance, if your sorceror is on the first floor of a building and there's an enemy model two floors above him (approx 8" away by direct line) but separated by two solid floors, technically you could charge him, because you 'ignore' the two floors separating them. Is this correct? Does this spell technically make the sorceror non-corporeal and given the ability to fly?

This would also mean that if you gave your sorceror Infiltration, he could set up inside a large building, waiting in a corner, to pounce on anything that stepped within 12" of him, even though he was on the second or third floor, with walls/floors/ceilings all around him.

Or give him Art of Silent Death, Tail Fighting, equip him with Eshin claws and a sword for tail, and even at base attack be has 6 attacks (1 for base A, 2 from Art of Silent Death + Fighting Claws, 1 from tail, and 2 from Black Fury) all at +1 strength anywhere within 12" ingnoring all walls, floors, terrain, height, etc.

Maybe I've gotten lucky on my rolls, but I have a sorceror that started with Black Fury, and at 20 exp (4 rolls for attributes/skills) got 3 skills (Art of Silent Death, Sorcery, and Tailfighting) and the one attribute I got was +1 A, so my rat gets 7 attacks with a successful cast of 7+ (normally 8+ but Sorcery knocks it down to 7+ ). This is insanely overpowered.

Now if I could just get him immune to fear....

Anyway, are we reading this wrong? Does ignore terrain mean something other than completely ignoring terrain? Is there an official ruling on this?
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PostSubject: Re: Black Fury Question   Sat 27 Nov 2010 - 0:06

It on par with the other teleport spells, only difference is you get a bonus to combat and it can *only* be used to charge.
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PostSubject: Re: Black Fury Question   Sat 27 Nov 2010 - 3:05

I remember reading in a FAQ that all spells require a line of effect to function, that being said since the effect of black hunger is special I would also allow it to effect a model in total concealment and in initiative range of the caster on a successful check (similar to charging around corners).

Secondly, yes the spell completely ignores terrain.
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PostSubject: Re: Black Fury Question   Sat 27 Nov 2010 - 7:39

One of the elusive Q&As (TC#12, p. 43) states that:
Quote :
Spells cannot be targeted at models which are out of line of sight.
An exception is made for area effect spells like Soul Fire.

Many spells have the same wording as far as the "any model within" x range. You need to be able to see your target after that you can get him if you can reach him.

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PostSubject: Re: Black Fury Question   Sat 27 Nov 2010 - 16:17

Von Kurst: Black Fury doesn't target the charged model. It targets the caster. The effects of the spell allow that caster to make a charge that doesn't conform to standard charge rules. From a strict RAW reading of the spell it should allow you to charge any enemy model within 12 inches regardless of LOS.
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PostSubject: Re: Black Fury Question   Sat 27 Nov 2010 - 17:32

While I must acknowledge the correctness of your point, I must point out that since the purpose of this spell is a charge then it has more than one target. The spell does 2 things. It transforms the sorcerer and teleports him into combat with any enemy model within 12". It has an effective range that can target any enemy model, which reads the same as other spells which affect enemy models.

Requiring the sorcerer to see an enemy to charge it doesn't seem like a bad thing.

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PostSubject: Re: Black Fury Question   Sat 27 Nov 2010 - 18:27

It is not a bad thing per se, but it is also not really a necessary thing either.

The interpretation we use in my circle is that the spell does indeed target only the caster. The caster does not need line of sight because terrain blocks line of sight and terrain can specifically be ignored. We have used this interpretation for years and it has never been a problem - not at any stage of the campain. It is potent, yes, but not game-breakingly so and certainly not to the point we ever felt we had to reinterpret the rule or make any house rules.

At difficulty 8 it is on par with the two other teleport spells Flight of Zimmeran ("Lesser" magic) and Wings of Darkness (Chaos magic), both of which are difficulty 7. The two teleport spells also allow charging a model out of line of sight; they do not grant a bonus in combat, but they are also easier to cast and have the utility of doubling as a transport spell.


Last edited by Lord 0 on Sat 27 Nov 2010 - 18:28; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Black Fury Question   Sat 27 Nov 2010 - 18:27

I second the comments by Von Kurst. The spell caster needs to be able to see the warrior being charged through the use of the spell.
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PostSubject: Re: Black Fury Question   Sun 28 Nov 2010 - 14:28

I'm glad some people interpreted things the way I had, I was beginning to think I was the only one. I've noticed a trend in those who say line of sight is needed

Von Kurst wrote:
While I must acknowledge the correctness of your point, I must point out that since the purpose of this spell is a charge then it has more than one target. The spell does 2 things. It transforms the sorcerer and teleports him into combat with any enemy model within 12". It has an effective range that can target any enemy model, which reads the same as other spells which affect enemy models.

Requiring the sorcerer to see an enemy to charge it doesn't seem like a bad thing.


Most of them see the spell as a charge spell with a combat boost. The charge is optional, and therefore not the main focus of the spell. You can cast it and not move at all.

Since the sorceror can always see himself, he can always cast the spell, the question is whether the optional charge is available. While I agree you would need LoS to charge a model, if you ignore all terrain and all interposing models, there is simply nothing left that would block LoS. Again, keep in mind it says may charge. You do not have to, and a target of the charge is therefore not necessary for the spell to be cast.

One other interpretation that may weaken the above position is that if you don't use the charge and are not in hand to hand already, then the spell is pointless. This is because the effects only last for your own combat round. Kind of like saying the rat gets super mad at something or someone, and the spell needs a target of the 'fury,' either in base to base already or that can be charged. However, the spell as written does not specify this.

I guess our situation might not come up very often in campaigns as it appears I got the holy grail of skill rolls, but I just feel that A7 S4 coming at you from 3 walls away is a bit much. Though, if that actually is the way it was intended, I have no problem abusing it into the ground Twisted Evil
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PostSubject: Re: Black Fury Question   Sun 28 Nov 2010 - 19:02

My interpretation of "ignoring any terrain and interposing models" is that:
1) it is possible to charge an enemy warrior on the second floor of a building when you are on the ground level without passing initiative tests, etc as the terrain is ignored or you can charge an enemy across a river without having to swim.
2) enemy warriors cannot intercept the charge.

I do not see it as removing terrain so that there is nothing left to block LoS. However, others have said that they do let this spell be used without LoS and do not find the spell broken in that instance either.

There are no rules to specify what happens if the warrior does not choose to charge so I believe that means that the spell must be used only in a charge. If this is true then this also would mean that the spell cannot be used once the caster is already in close combat because it cannot charge a warrior that it is already fighting but I would have no problem with it being used to break from close combat to charge another enemy.

The rules are fine as written. Yes it can be powerful but it isn't game breaking. Agree on the interpretation of LoS requirements with your gaming group and then enjoy! Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Black Fury Question   Mon 29 Nov 2010 - 2:42

Rational Lemming: You are free, of course, to interpret things how you will, but your interpretation is not the rule. The rule is what it is. It says you may charge any enemy within 12 inches, ignoring intervening terrain and models. That is what you may do.
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PostSubject: Re: Black Fury Question   Mon 29 Nov 2010 - 10:16

I play the spell as RationallLemming describes.

I don't think charging a model that is out of sight or hidden is good game play.

Not because it is too powerful an effect, but because the game often boils down to models getting so close they can't run anymore and charging is the only logical choice so you get some charges and models start dying and somebody routes.

So anything that allows for some maneuvering and sneakiness is good in my eyes and I am unwilling to use a vague rule description on a spell of all things to undermine that.
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