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Darkfury
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PostSubject: Lightning Reflexs   Mon 8 Nov 2010 - 7:30


Sorry if this is a silly question (I need that as my sig!)

If a spear wielding Orc charges a model with lightning reflexs, who strikes first? Does it go by initiative as it would for an axe wielding Orc, or does the spear help the orc?

I am thinking init is used, but I could well be wrong.
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PostSubject: Re: Lightning Reflexs   Mon 8 Nov 2010 - 8:54

Actually if the orc charges with a spear it'd be just the same as charging with a choppa.

Charging gives you first strike and so does lightning reflexes (when being charged)- When two people have first strike it goes off initiative. (First strikes do not stack, although it would make for a good house rule!)

So yeah, spear will do nothing if you are charging with it - it does however give you first strike in following rounds of combat!
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PostSubject: Re: Lightning Reflexs   Mon 8 Nov 2010 - 12:41

I'm confused. My copy of the rules review from 05 says that a spear only has strike first in the "first turn" of combat. An orc with a spear being useless under such rules. (Unless fighting zombies or Saurus warriors.)

To the original question: The model with the highest initiative will strike first under the revised rules. This model is unlikely to be the orc.
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PostSubject: Re: Lightning Reflexs   Mon 8 Nov 2010 - 12:48

Figgy wrote:

So yeah, spear will do nothing if you are charging with it - it does however give you first strike in following rounds of combat!

Not that it would give you any benefit in the following rounds? scratch

/Edit: Von Kurst, aye. Although technically you could say the "Strike first" is attached to the spear, so the spear always has the special rule. The wording of the rule, however, clearly says, that the effect of the rule that the spear always has only comes to bear in the first turn of combat. So the spear keeps its rule, but the rule does not keep its effect (after the first turn of combat). Razz

Living Rulebook, p. 26 wrote:

Strike first: A warrior with a spear strikes first in the first turn of hand-to-hand combat.
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PostSubject: Re: Lightning Reflexs   Mon 8 Nov 2010 - 14:32

Spears on orcs aren't *completely* useless, but close to. Orc heroes with I upgrades can find them useful, but are generally better off just getting the Lightning Reflexes skill (Generally only the leader and the promoted heroes).

Spears on the henchmen mean they will be dicing off against dwarfs and other low I models, and if they get an I upgrade then they will be striking first vs dwarfs and dicing off vs most humans. In my mind not not worth the 10 gold, but if you find some for free it can be worth it.

Personally, I am too cheap to buy such expensive weapons for henchmen.

Oh, mithril weapons can be worth buying for I levelled orc heroes - especially those with Lightning Reflexes. Ithilmar Daggers are only 6 gold each and Ithilmar Axes are only 15 gold and can be a useful addition to an experienced orc.

For your Boyz that don't have access to Speed skills consider giving them Weapons Expert and then a crossbow pistol.
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PostSubject: Re: Lightning Reflexs   Mon 8 Nov 2010 - 17:51

Oops, I worded that totally wrong!

I was in a rush at work...I feel noobish now.

The spear is only during the first round of combat! I think I was trying to say in following combats or when he gets charged? Orrrrr I could have just had a lapse of sanity.

EDIT: But yeah, short answer since I derailed this thread with my comment on spears -- "If you have multiple models in combat with first strike, the order of combat is determined by initiative value."
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PostSubject: Re: Lightning Reflexs   Mon 8 Nov 2010 - 19:17


Thanks all.
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PostSubject: Re: Lightning Reflexs   Mon 8 Nov 2010 - 19:27

My dwarves tend to grumble a lot about the Great Spear Nerf.

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PostSubject: Re: Lightning Reflexs   Mon 8 Nov 2010 - 20:19

My orcs grumble more about dwarfs than spears, although The Great Spear Rule Revolt was all the rage for a couple of weeks. These days no one is sure what the Revolt actually decided since no one kept minutes as I was out of town.

Dwarfs are walking cheese without tails.
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PostSubject: Re: Lightning Reflexs   Mon 8 Nov 2010 - 20:36

Yeah, well, since our group decided to try the "shields give +2 armor" rule, there has been a resurgance in spears and morning stars. Although, the elves seem to be the only ones really benefitting from using them...
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PostSubject: Re: Lightning Reflexs   Tue 9 Nov 2010 - 6:28

Spears are really only good if you have high or above average initive and you have the 5+ rule for shields.

When I played Skinks The 6+ natural armor save, stacked with the 5+ shield armor save netted a 4+ armor save. Team that with the ability to negate the first stike from a charge it was a pretty good combo. They had an Initiave of 4 for most skinks which was above average, so I usually won or if they had an upgrade we would die-off.

Now against someone with the same initive you are dicing-off, so 50% of the time it should work, against a higher Initive spears are kind of useless, they aren't worth it because you don't really get any useful bonus.
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PostSubject: Re: Lightning Reflexs   Tue 9 Nov 2010 - 14:39

Now that the Great Spear Debuffing has been around for a while we are considering dropping the price of spears to 5 gold to better reflect their in-game power level and costs.

In the past it always sat poorly with us that a spear cost just as much gold as a sword, but we never did anything about it because the 'Strikes first' was so potent then, but now it has been nerfed significantly we will probably give it a go.
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PostSubject: Re: Lightning Reflexs   Tue 9 Nov 2010 - 15:22

We have decided to house rule that spears strike first when charged in the first round of combat only.
This gives them a worthwhile effect for the 10gc cost.

Unless anyone can see a balance problem with this?
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PostSubject: Re: Lightning Reflexs   Tue 9 Nov 2010 - 15:53

Of curiosity, how you are wording your house rule? How does it interact with the 'Strikes First' special rule? Does it remove 'Strikes First' from chargers, or have some kind of 'Strikes Even Firster' special rule or what?
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PostSubject: Re: Lightning Reflexs   Tue 9 Nov 2010 - 17:55

With the nerf, the price does need to be adjusted, as Lord O suggested.

We have considered giving them "First Strike" and +1 to initiative in the first round of combat, as kind of a compromise between the original and the over-kill nerfing.
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PostSubject: Re: Lightning Reflexs   Tue 9 Nov 2010 - 23:35

Lord 0 , we would rule that 2 strikes first = Initiative order.

Lightning Reflexes and Spears give "Strike First".

Chargers don't get "Strikes First", they just hit first, unless the target has "Strike First".

This will make the spear have a situational (only when being charged, not charging) bonus for it's cost.
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PostSubject: Re: Lightning Reflexs   Fri 12 Nov 2010 - 14:23

@qboid that is what I thought too until I re-read the rules.

Core book p 18:

who strikes first
Normally, models fight in order of descending
Initiative with the highest striking first. If their
Initiatives are equal, roll a dice to see who strikes first.
If a model stood up in the Recovery phase of that
turn, then he will strike last irrespective of any other
circumstances.
Sometimes a model will be allowed to ‘strike first’ for
some reason. Most commonly this is because they
charged in that turn, but some equipment, skills and
spells produce the same effect.
If only one model
‘strikes first’ then it does so and the remainder of the
combatants strike in Initiative order as described
above.
If there are several models who are each entitled to
‘strike first’, then they determine the order of combat
between themselves by Initiative, as described above.
Once all those that were eligible to ‘strike first’ have
fought, any other combatants fight in Initiative order.
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PostSubject: Re: Lightning Reflexs   Sat 13 Nov 2010 - 16:57

By this interpretation the spear was not nerfed in its Strike First. I had the impression that the spear in its original rules incarnation had a Strikes First first kind of clause. This possible myth is very dear to the hearts and minds of our group.
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PostSubject: Re: Lightning Reflexs   Sun 14 Nov 2010 - 8:23

In the original rulebook, the spear specifically trumped being charged. Here is what it said:

"Strike First: a warrior with a spear strikes first, even if charged, because the long shaft of the spear allows him to thrust it at oncoming enemies before they have a chance to hit him. Note that this only applies in the first turn of hand-to-hand combat."
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PostSubject: Re: Lightning Reflexs   Sun 14 Nov 2010 - 22:25

To me this seems like an 'Ability vs. Stat' issue.

If charging, lightning reflexes, and spears all grant the same ability, "strike first', then the Initiative stat suddenly becomes really important.

Personally I think this is a good thing, Initiative seemed a little lost and forlorn unless you were climbing or ice skating.

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PostSubject: Re: Lightning Reflexs   Mon 15 Nov 2010 - 5:03

Krashlandon wrote:
Personally I think this is a good thing, Initiative seemed a little lost and forlorn unless you were climbing or ice skating.

Thanks for that. I have now spent all morning with Orc versions of Torvill and Dean in my head!
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PostSubject: Re: Lightning Reflexs   Mon 15 Nov 2010 - 8:08

When I first started to play I was playing Orcs, and I was tired of always striking last except when I charged. I looked into spears, and realized that they wouldn't really help with my Orcs.

We had a guy who played Undead and had the same Idea then he re-read the rules for spears and said the samething.
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PostSubject: Re: Lightning Reflexs   Mon 15 Nov 2010 - 8:16

You guys talked yourselves out of the Golden Age of Spears then. Or the Evil Dark Time of Spear Cheese, depending on whom you ask.
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PostSubject: Re: Lightning Reflexs   Mon 15 Nov 2010 - 11:32

Von Kurst wrote:
You guys talked yourselves out of the Golden Age of Spears then. Or the Evil Dark Time of Spear Cheese, depending on whom you ask.

Oh yeah, and in the Golden Age, spears were not two-handed, either... ah, those were the days... Laughing
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