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 Movement question: Ruins as difficult terrain? Am I crazy?

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DestroyYouAlot
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PostSubject: Movement question: Ruins as difficult terrain? Am I crazy?   Wed 20 Oct 2010 - 11:28

So, in organizing a 6-week campaign I'm going to be running, I've come upon this issue: Ruins aren't really defined as a terrain type (i.e., open or difficult) one way or the other. This could be seen as leaving it up to the table (i.e., discussing which ruins may or may not be counted as difficult, or simply calling them either all open or all difficult), but it kinda feels like a big hole to me.

Now, in Empire in Flames, intact buildings are counted as difficult terrain, due to the amount of clutter inside. Even with the game conceit that most of the rubble and lootable loot has been hauled away, it's tough to imagine the ruined houses inside the city are easier to traverse than the intact ones outside it. Wink So I'm inclined to take the view that, at least at my table (or for the duration of this campaign), buildings (ruined or no) are difficult terrain. After all, there ought to be some trade-off for a warband moving through cover (versus one that braves a charge down the open street!).

Anybody care to tell me why I'm wrong? LOL Some rule (or ruling) that I'm missing? Is this at all a common interpretation?

Thanks in advance,

DYA
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PostSubject: Re: Movement question: Ruins as difficult terrain? Am I crazy?   Wed 20 Oct 2010 - 11:37

Welcome!

When I first started playing I was bothered by that. After a long time playing the game I tend to ignore or shy away from anything that slows the game down all the time. That includes the EiF rule and difficult ground for ruins. These days the most radical I get is to enforce no running in difficult ground.
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PostSubject: Re: Movement question: Ruins as difficult terrain? Am I crazy?   Wed 20 Oct 2010 - 16:30

I find that very often people move their models through alleys, using buildings for cover but not going in them that often. I like warriors entering buildings, and in particular things tend to be more interesting when warriors move off of the ground level - which happens all too rarely as it is. Consequently, like Von Kurst, a rule making ruined buildings difficult terrain is not very appealing to me. I see the logic of the rule, but I don't think it helps the flow of the game.
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PostSubject: Re: Movement question: Ruins as difficult terrain? Am I crazy?   Wed 20 Oct 2010 - 16:55

Ahh, mweaver has hit the point. Mordheim is a terrain heavy game. Discouraging the USE of that terrain really lowers the appeal of the game and makes you wonder why you bothered to build any.

If we used Playtable's Tortuga buildings as per the EiF rules (difficult ground, occupied, etc) we would never enter them because it would be more efficient not to. Of course they would still look pretty.

Also Mordheim is a game that favors missle weapons. Penalizing warbands that seek cover just emphasizes this.

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PostSubject: Re: Movement question: Ruins as difficult terrain? Am I crazy?   Thu 21 Oct 2010 - 15:59

I'd say it all depends on the gamers in question. I'd prefer at least some difficult ground in buildings to support the logic. I don't care how much looting/scavenging has happened most buildings are still going to be pretty hard to move around in.

In most of the games I played it seemed that everyone chose to move through the buildings. At one point I was thinking of suggesting some kind of bonus when moving on an open street. The only time we counted buildings as difficult terrain was when there was rubble piles actually modeled, and even then it only applied when actually crossing the pile.

I think a good compromise would be make up some rubble counters or piles and place them as normal terrain pieces. If counters you could place one in the center of the building and that whole building would be difficult terrain. If you're using larger piles you could just count moving over it as difficult so a model could still make their way around it if desired. You could even place rubble piles in the street.

My guess is DYA probably likes a nice crunchy ruleset...hell he's probably a HackMaster fan Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Movement question: Ruins as difficult terrain? Am I crazy?   Thu 21 Oct 2010 - 16:40

We let people move through buildings normally, lest all the terrain I made not be used!
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PostSubject: Re: Movement question: Ruins as difficult terrain? Am I crazy?   Fri 22 Oct 2010 - 11:38

ClausLars wrote:
My guess is DYA probably likes a nice crunchy ruleset...hell he's probably a HackMaster fan Very Happy

Hahaha... well, you're not far off. Wink More that I'm just trying to cobble together all the supplements into one coherent ruleset for the house. (It should be entered into anecdotal evidence that buildings in our games tend to be the preferred means of travel right now, and that's even after we went from "free ladder climbing" to "start your movement within 1" or wait a turn".)

And I'm enough of a HackMaster fan that I use the crit tables in AD&D. (I'm a rotten bastard of a GM. LOL)
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PostSubject: Re: Movement question: Ruins as difficult terrain? Am I crazy?   Fri 22 Oct 2010 - 13:59

DestroyYouAlot wrote:
(It should be entered into anecdotal evidence that buildings in our games tend to be the preferred means of travel right now, and that's even after we went from "free ladder climbing" to "start your movement within 1" or wait a turn".)

And I'm enough of a HackMaster fan that I use the crit tables in AD&D. (I'm a rotten bastard of a GM. LOL)

Interesting thought for the ladders, seems like it would give a nice advantage to shooting warbands. If I want to chase down and smack your sniper I'd have to leave myself open to at least one shot.

You're also the kind of rotten bastard GM who makes the local tavern out of stone so we won't burn it down. eeexcellent!
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PostSubject: Re: Movement question: Ruins as difficult terrain? Am I crazy?   Fri 22 Oct 2010 - 14:02

ClausLars wrote:
DestroyYouAlot wrote:
(It should be entered into anecdotal evidence that buildings in our games tend to be the preferred means of travel right now, and that's even after we went from "free ladder climbing" to "start your movement within 1" or wait a turn".)

And I'm enough of a HackMaster fan that I use the crit tables in AD&D. (I'm a rotten bastard of a GM. LOL)

Interesting thought for the ladders, seems like it would give a nice advantage to shooting warbands. If I want to chase down and smack your sniper I'd have to leave myself open to at least one shot.

You're also the kind of rotten bastard GM who makes the local tavern out of stone so we won't burn it down. eeexcellent!

Hahaha... What's up, Justin?
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PostSubject: Re: Movement question: Ruins as difficult terrain? Am I crazy?   Fri 22 Oct 2010 - 15:00

You could always randomize you buildings and floors as the first model enters the building and/of ruin. For instance, my model enters a building and then does a quick look around and he moves through it. For example: Roll a D3, 1-2 is Difficult movement, 3-4 is Hindering movement, 5-6 is Open movement. Then that player places a token down on the floor of that place for any other models when entering it. This would give you a randomness as you play, without having to have a discussion at the beginning every game for every building on the table, and trying to come up with an agreement of all players each tries to gain an advantage for themselves or disadvantage to their opponents. Just randomize it and be as close to fair as possible.
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PostSubject: Re: Movement question: Ruins as difficult terrain? Am I crazy?   Sun 24 Oct 2010 - 9:58

Howdy man, nice of you to wait for me to move 1600 miles away before starting a Mordheim campaign. My Beastmen that scary? (Though I'm hoping to run Dwarves if I ever get a chance to play again)

Why the change to ladders? I can imagine how that would have been a huge blow to my beastmen. Considering that as far as I can tell the FAQ on the SG site says Centigors can't climb ladders at all, I'd be looking at qute the disadvantage. Mebbe ladders should just count as difficult terrain? Seriously, you ever try climbing a ladder carrying somethng heavy? Especially a straight ladder?

Shadowphx wrote:
You could always randomize you buildings and floors as the first model enters the building and/of ruin. For instance, my model enters a building and then does a quick look around and he moves through it. For example: Roll a D3, 1-2 is Difficult movement, 3-4 is Hindering movement, 5-6 is Open movement. Then that player places a token down on the floor of that place for any other models when entering it. This would give you a randomness as you play, without having to have a discussion at the beginning every game for every building on the table, and trying to come up with an agreement of all players each tries to gain an advantage for themselves or disadvantage to their opponents. Just randomize it and be as close to fair as possible.

I LOVE extra randomness, so this approach appeals to me.
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PostSubject: Re: Movement question: Ruins as difficult terrain? Am I crazy?   Sun 24 Oct 2010 - 12:04

I'm with Von Kurst, mweaver and the others who have advised against this idea. Making terrain less attractive to move through will (in my opinion) make the game less fun as people will avoid using the terrain on the board.

There have been lots of threads here over the last year or so asking how to get warbands off the street and into the upper floors! I have always believed the USP (unique selling point!) of Mordheim over other fantasy skirmish games is the way the ruins make the table a 3 dimensional playing area.

Making ladders (and other means of upward movement like knotted ropes and ramps) open terrain as well as leaving all ruins as open terrain means players are much more likely to use the upper stories of buildings. Being able to charge up into the upper floors is vital for game play in my opinion!
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PostSubject: Re: Movement question: Ruins as difficult terrain? Am I crazy?   Sun 24 Oct 2010 - 15:25

Not sure why we've had such different experiences, like I said my games have always been focused in the buildings. I haven't read over the rules or played in a while so bear with me, you can run/charge over difficult terrain right?

I think I'd still use tokens or rubble terrain pieces, add another layer of strategy to setting up the board. No one says the piles have to go in buildings.
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PostSubject: Re: Movement question: Ruins as difficult terrain? Am I crazy?   Sun 24 Oct 2010 - 15:56

~Difficult ground. I've encountered different interpretations of what this means on occasion while playing Mordheim. By the rules difficult ground means all movement is halved. Running is not allowed although charging is. However since movement is halved that means that a human can charge 4 inches in difficult ground. Thus the caution against slowing the game down and skewing it more in the favor of shooting warbands.

Many players have the misconception that they may still run and therefore move their normal move in difficult ground, or 40K players may assume they need a test. Now that 8th edition Warhammer has changed how difficult ground works as well I expect more discussion.
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PostSubject: Re: Movement question: Ruins as difficult terrain? Am I crazy?   Mon 25 Oct 2010 - 9:43

Hmm, I'd be inclined to say that if you can charge then you should be able to run. To me it makes little sense to allow doubling your movement (so allowing normal walk speed) in one instance and not another. I've definately sprinted over some pretty rough ground before so it's possible, maybe not advisable but possible.

When I ran my beastmen half the fun was stalking through the buildings in hiding before running across open terrain to keep from getting shot. My leader had sprint and leap so he traveled with my 5 hounds and the centigor for a pretty vicious fast attack group.
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PostSubject: Re: Movement question: Ruins as difficult terrain? Am I crazy?   Tue 26 Oct 2010 - 3:13

Beastmen are much faster than most warbands though! Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Movement question: Ruins as difficult terrain? Am I crazy?   Tue 26 Oct 2010 - 3:35

The reason for allowing a charge without allowing the doubling of speed is that charging is the only way to get into close combat. You should be allowed to engage someone in close combat even if you have to clamber towards them at walking speed over the terrain.
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PostSubject: Re: Movement question: Ruins as difficult terrain? Am I crazy?   Tue 26 Oct 2010 - 4:29

ClausLars wrote:
Hmm, I'd be inclined to say that if you can charge then you should be able to run. To me it makes little sense to allow doubling your movement (so allowing normal walk speed) in one instance and not another. I've definately sprinted over some pretty rough ground before so it's possible, maybe not advisable but possible.

Then this becomes your house rule or BYL's house rule, but it is not applying the rules as written. And if you allow running across difficult ground why bother with saying its difficult ground?

ClausLars wrote:
When I ran my beastmen half the fun was stalking through the buildings in hiding before running across open terrain to keep from getting shot. My leader had sprint and leap so he traveled with my 5 hounds and the centigor for a pretty vicious fast attack group.

Which is how we always advise players to attack missile troops. And negating the tactic is the source of my disagreement with the make ruins difficult ground rule, which if it really wasn't difficult ground, but a house rule making it something else called 'difficult ground'... Meh.
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PostSubject: Re: Movement question: Ruins as difficult terrain? Am I crazy?   Tue 26 Oct 2010 - 5:55

Another reason not to count ruins as Difficult Terrain - in the edition of Warhammer that Morheim was based on Difficult Terrain only slowed down ranked up troops, individual models like characters and skirmishers were not effected!
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PostSubject: Re: Movement question: Ruins as difficult terrain? Am I crazy?   Today at 14:46

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