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 Leaping, Blunderbus, Dueling pistol and Elf Bow

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Darkfury
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PostSubject: Leaping, Blunderbus, Dueling pistol and Elf Bow   Fri 17 Sep 2010 - 5:52


1. Can the Blunderbus fire into close combat? If yes, I guess if the line drawn touches your own models they would be hit too? Might still be worth a risk if it was one of yours and six of theirs...
I did search for this, and found a couple of posts about the Blunderbus but I can't see it answered. Perhaps because its obvious.

2. The Leap skill.
Quote :
The Warrior may leap D6" in the movement phase in addition to his normal movement. He may move and leap, run and leap, or charge and leap, but he can only leap once per turn.

a) If my normal move rate is 4" and theres a model 10 inches away. Can I declare a charge, then roll my D6 for leap distance, and then in this instance successfully charge on a 2+?
b) I can leap over enemies. Does this allow me to charge models behind other models? (I am thinking no).
c) Does it allow me to charge enemies from behind, for example if the front of the enemy model was already blocked by other warband members.

3. Dueling Pistols Hand to Hand rule. Am I right that the following statements are true?
A model with a dueling pistol and sword and shield would attack twice in the first combat round (a shot+sword) and once thereafter. (or does shield mean he cant fire?)
A model with a dueling pistol and two swords would attack twice in the first combat round (sword+sword) and twice thereafter. (i.e. pistol can't be used)
OR A model with a dueling pistol and two swords would attack three times in the first combat round (Shot+sword+sword) and twice thereafter.

4. Can human merc's roll availability on an Elf Bow (12, good luck on that!) and use it? I am guessing yes as there were no Elf warbands in the original rules and yet the bows were still listed, but I could be wrong. If it can be used, can it be used by anyone who can use a bow or only someone who can use a longbow?

Thanks in advance.


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PostSubject: Re: Leaping, Blunderbus, Dueling pistol and Elf Bow   Fri 17 Sep 2010 - 7:00

I can answer 3&4

3. Each Pistol can attack every other round, and they count as your attack or your off hand attack, so to your examples. If you had 1 sword and a pistol you would attack with the sword, and the pistol, then the next round you would only be able to attack with the sword.

Now the next example you gave was if you had 2 swords, and a pistol. You can only attack up to the number of attacks you have +1 for your off hand if you have a weapon in your off hand. So if your character has only 1 attack then you would be able to attack with the sword, and the pistol the first round, then with both swords for the second round.

Now if you have 2 pistols than you can shoot once every round. So if you had 2 pistols (also called a brace) and a sword than you can attack with the sword and pistol every round.

4. There is a skill that will allow you to use any ranged weapon, so if your human hero has that skill and a Elf Bow than he can use the elf bow, otherwise he cannot.
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PostSubject: Re: Leaping, Blunderbus, Dueling pistol and Elf Bow   Fri 17 Sep 2010 - 10:14

From the Blunderbuss rules:

Any and all models in its path are automatically hit by a Strength 3 hit.

I also thought that you couldn't swap weapons once in combat, so if you used Sword and Pistol in the first round, you couldn't swap to Sword and Dagger in round 2?

I can't remember why i thought that though.

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PostSubject: Re: Leaping, Blunderbus, Dueling pistol and Elf Bow   Fri 17 Sep 2010 - 14:07

1. The Blunderbuss specifically says in it's entry that you choose *any* direction from the firer as the line of the shot. I would say for the purposes of firing into a close combat that you may only fire though a close combat if there is another target on the other side i.e. a target other than the ones fighting. There are so few template weapons in Mordheim that the rules aren't obvious. Like in Warhammer 40k, if you have a flamer you cannot target models in CC with it, but if you graze them while attacking a unit not in CC then the hits are resolved as normal.

2. Unlike other fantasy games, you may declare a charge against any enemy model within your "unobstructed line of sight." If the model is out of range then it is a failed charge. The leap skill says it can be done as a "charge and leap" which seems as if they intended to let you roll after you declare your charge and add it to the distance. Doesn't seem broken to me as the sprint skill would do the same job better, minus the added bonus of jumping gaps and models. And as for the model jumping, as long as you only jump 1 model, as leap says only 1 leap per turn, then sure. It seems fair that you would be able to jump to the other side of the charged model as long as you didn't have to jump anything else on your way to him.

3. Dueling Pistol, Sword, and Shield would give you 2 attacks on the first round of combat without your warrior using his shield and if he only had 1 base attack (1 with the sword, 1 with the pistol at str4 and -2 armor save). If you used your brace of pistols then you use both of them in the first round of combat and that's that, no more shooting that combat. I haven't been able to find the exact ruling about having to stick with using whatever weapon you started the combat with as our group usually says you choose what to swing with during each round. if you had to stick with what you use them you'll be swinging with 2 empty guns after the first round.

4. They certainly can get the Elf Bow by rolling the rarity and paying the costs. Rudeboy is correct though, only a warrior with the Weapons Expert skill can use ranged weapons not found on their equipment list. Save your money until you get the skill. Not that I think I have to mention it, only heroes with the skill can use them, no henchmen.

Hope this helped.
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PostSubject: Re: Leaping, Blunderbus, Dueling pistol and Elf Bow   Sat 18 Sep 2010 - 6:22

Just to add to the post by Charybdis0, pistols were covered in one of the FAQs to say that after they'd been fired you were allowed to swap thm for another weapon in the next round of combat. Only lances and pistols have this rule so you may not normally switch weapons during an ongoing fight.
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PostSubject: Re: Leaping, Blunderbus, Dueling pistol and Elf Bow   Sat 18 Sep 2010 - 20:19

Darkfury wrote:

2. The Leap skill.
Quote :
The Warrior may leap D6" in the movement phase in addition to his normal movement. He may move and leap, run and leap, or charge and leap, but he can only leap once per turn.

a) If my normal move rate is 4" and theres a model 10 inches away. Can I declare a charge, then roll my D6 for leap distance, and then in this instance successfully charge on a 2+?
Yes it does.

Darkfury wrote:
b) I can leap over enemies. Does this allow me to charge models behind other models? (I am thinking no).
It does allow this. Indeed, it is specifically allowed in the skill description.

Darkfury wrote:

c) Does it allow me to charge enemies from behind, for example if the front of the enemy model was already blocked by other warband members.
Yes and no. It allows the charging from behind if the front is full, but this is allowed anyway. Remember, your charge must be the most direct path - not necessarily a perfectly straight path. If the front of a model is full then you may charge in behind if you have the movement; leap simply lets you take a shorter path by going over models. However, if the side closest to you is clear then you must still charge the side closest to you.
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PostSubject: Re: Leaping, Blunderbus, Dueling pistol and Elf Bow   Sun 19 Sep 2010 - 13:58

Darkfury wrote:

1. Can the Blunderbus fire into close combat? If yes, I guess if the line drawn touches your own models they would be hit too? Might still be worth a risk if it was one of yours and six of theirs...
I did search for this, and found a couple of posts about the Blunderbus but I can't see it answered. Perhaps because its obvious.

All the questions were answered by others, but i would like to give my 2 cents on number 1.

You cannot shoot into combat if you have a friendly model involved (MH Rules Pg. 13), and combats block line of sight (cannot find reference).

You may shoot into combat in 3+ player games where your side is not involved, in which case the hits are randomized between all participants in the close combat (Chaos in the Streets).

If you were to shoot into combat with a blunderbuss, chances are every model would take a hit.

In the rare circumstance where you are shooting at someone outside the combat, who is not blocked by the combat, but some members of the combat fall within the 1 inch area of effect while others do not (see diagram), it can be safe to assume the hit(s) are randomized if we follow the logic on the multi-player rules.


In the diagram above: Green 1 is shooting at Red 2, while nearby, Blue 1 and 2 are fighting with Red 1. The one inch corridor-of-fire for the blunderbuss, touches Blue 2, but no other participant in the combat. The way i see it, the hit will be randomized between Blue 1, Blue 2, and Red 1.

Now the question is, what is this were a 2 player game, and Green 1 were actually a Blue warrior: Would this be a leagal shot considering the substantial chance of friendly fire?
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PostSubject: Re: Leaping, Blunderbus, Dueling pistol and Elf Bow   Sun 19 Sep 2010 - 16:30

I agree completely with PD in regards to how the blunderbuss works. That is also a great diagram. My question is whether the shot would be randomised between all three warriors or only between blue 2 and red 1.

I believe this would be a legal shot even in a two player game because the rules say nothing more than you cannot shoot at close combat when there is a friendly warrior in that combat.
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PostSubject: Re: Leaping, Blunderbus, Dueling pistol and Elf Bow   Mon 20 Sep 2010 - 3:58

We just use the flame template for the blunderbuss, hitting every model under it. - makes it a lot easier, and there's no randomising to be done.
You can still only shoot into combat in which you are not parttaking.

sure it's not the official rule, but I've seen a lot of people going by the same ruling.
(it's also a lot more realistic to have a spread out pattern which isn't that ranged (bit like a shotgun)

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PostSubject: Re: Leaping, Blunderbus, Dueling pistol and Elf Bow   Mon 20 Sep 2010 - 5:25

In regard to Pathfinder's last question, I would say it is not a legal shot. Blue is shooting, and there is a chance of hitting Blue.

Ezekiel's suggestion is a decent alternative way for a blunderbuss to work.
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PostSubject: Re: Leaping, Blunderbus, Dueling pistol and Elf Bow   Mon 20 Sep 2010 - 6:29

I'm sure if they re-released Mordheim today the flamer template is what would be used for for blunderbuss, along with the other blast templates for various spell effects.

I might be inclined to accept that change if it were the course GW wanted to steer the game, although i think any changes will be frowned upon at this point since the community has elevated the game so much after its abandonment, that GW can't really claim to have any authority over the rules in my mind.

In regards to my last question, i think it would be allowed. Ignoring the example, you may shoot at an enemy if a friendly warrior is in the way. The rules specifically state that if you miss by one, the cover is hit instead, be it a friendly model or powder keg (interestingly foreshadowing of the gunpowder plot scenario).
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PostSubject: Re: Leaping, Blunderbus, Dueling pistol and Elf Bow   Mon 20 Sep 2010 - 13:01

Pathfinder Dubstyles wrote:



In the diagram above: Green 1 is shooting at Red 2, while nearby, Blue 1 and 2 are fighting with Red 1. The one inch corridor-of-fire for the blunderbuss, touches Blue 2, but no other participant in the combat. The way i see it, the hit will be randomized between Blue 1, Blue 2, and Red 1.

Now the question is, what is this were a 2 player game, and Green 1 were actually a Blue warrior: Would this be a leagal shot considering the substantial chance of friendly fire?

Our group always plays it this way also.

As far as a legal shot goes I am not so sure however. The problem here is that while he is not shooting direclty into close combat and thus not "breaking the rules" the template still would hit the close combat, and since the template isn't really random, the character has a choice where to place it / aim. Based on that I would say no. This of course is in reference to having your own guys in combat.

However on a side note. Our group often plays that you can shoot into close combat (house rule), if you want to run the risk of hitting your own guys fine by us!
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PostSubject: Re: Leaping, Blunderbus, Dueling pistol and Elf Bow   Mon 20 Sep 2010 - 18:16

@PD... using the cover example as a guide was what I was thinking of also when I thought of it being a legal shot.

@HR... yes I sometimes do wonder whether that would be a fun house rule. Smile It even makes senses for some of the 'less good' warbands (e.g. why would an orc care if they accidentally shot one of their gobbos that just happen to be in close combat with an enemy).
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PostSubject: Re: Leaping, Blunderbus, Dueling pistol and Elf Bow   Tue 21 Sep 2010 - 15:35

[quote="Pathfinder Dubstyles"]
Darkfury wrote:

In the rare circumstance where you are shooting at someone outside the combat, who is not blocked by the combat, but some members of the combat fall within the 1 inch area of effect while others do not (see diagram), it can be safe to assume the hit(s) are randomized if we follow the logic on the multi-player rules.


In the diagram above: Green 1 is shooting at Red 2, while nearby, Blue 1 and 2 are fighting with Red 1. The one inch corridor-of-fire for the blunderbuss, touches Blue 2, but no other participant in the combat. The way i see it, the hit will be randomized between Blue 1, Blue 2, and Red 1.

Now the question is, what is this were a 2 player game, and Green 1 were actually a Blue warrior: Would this be a leagal shot considering the substantial chance of friendly fire?

The way I see it there would be no reason to randomize, as Blunderbuss's are filled to the brim with whatever they can find and fires buckshot essentially so ANYONE in the 1" path would be hit with the shot friend or foe, going back to the
Quote :
Green 1 were actually a Blue warrior: Would this be a leagal shot considering the substantial chance of friendly fire?
, I think it would still be fair shot, seeing your not targeting your own model it was just a "slight" miscalculation on the weilder's part... [that and refering to WHFB Skaven rule of "life is cheap"]


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PostSubject: Re: Leaping, Blunderbus, Dueling pistol and Elf Bow   Thu 23 Sep 2010 - 8:10

@Tewfik I think that certain warbands should be allowed to shoot into their own such as Skaven, but other more Noble Warbands should not like High Elf.
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