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JAFisher44
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PostSubject: Re: Is spear still worth it?   Fri 23 Oct 2009 - 20:13

Well, I would be inclined to grant spears an initiative bonus on the first turn of combat, but only when receiving a charge. Not when charging. A spear is a defensive weapon. The idea of it is that you have to get past it to attack the wielder. It is a little harder to use it effectively on the charge.

When I run a campaign, I will have a spear grant a +5 to initiative when receiving a charge. (In addition to any rules it already has.)
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PostSubject: Re: Is spear still worth it?   Fri 23 Oct 2009 - 22:00

So I had to go back and read the rules from the old book to try and compare them to the rules review. I got the make the spear unwieldy thing and we play that way. And I like limiting strikes first to only when charged. But we've never quite gotten the whole thing on the new "always strikes first" and after reading this thread and Tom's confusion at the beginning of it I'm pretty comfortable with not getting it. Or at least not using it.

House rule.
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PostSubject: Re: Is spear still worth it?   Fri 23 Oct 2009 - 23:54

My idea on a House Rule.

A warrior armed with a spear gains the first strike ability on the first turn of a hand-to-hand combat, if charged however the warrior doubles their initiative for the purposes of determining who strikes first.
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PostSubject: Re: Is spear still worth it?   Sat 24 Oct 2009 - 3:44

Von Kurst, what's so difficult about First Strike as it is now?

1. All models with first strike make their attacks in Initiative order (regardless if they were granted first strike through charging, from wielding a spear or from Lightning Reflexes).
2. All remaining models make their attacks in Initative order.

Seems quite simple to me.

Before this erratum the rules were horrible, exactly because of the question how combinations of strike first were handled. Now it's pretty simple.

Unfortuantely the rules for spears were not boosted to make them worth the 10 gc. I think "strike first" and +1 Initative when charged are enough to make them interesting. If you wanted you could still buy Ithilmar spears. Razz

(For kicks: In the beginning of our campaigns when Mordheim was released we had indeed models wielding two spears, one in each hand, always striking first. We had to house rule that out Rolling Eyes )

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PostSubject: Re: Is spear still worth it?   Sat 24 Oct 2009 - 6:04

The Rules Review is indeed simple and I fully understand how it works. However, we didn't have a problem with the old rules for striking first. We were not confused, upset or longing for change.

I write a lot of rules for campaigns and such and the test is always whether people USE them or not. If a rule gets ignored I just delete it from the next campaign. The group I play with doesn't use the strike first rules from the review when we are actually playing the game.

We don't use spears that much because dual wield is always better, but we will have the odd model with a spear show up from time to time and no one shouts cheese if an I 2 orc strikes first against an elf. (We hates elfs.)

Actually I just realized that the Forest Goblins have 4 heroes armed with spears. They have the worst win loss record...
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PostSubject: Re: Is spear still worth it?   Sat 24 Oct 2009 - 8:24

Except for Da Mob who get to strike first first. I am still unhappy with that ruling on Led'z Go.

So, the waters are muddied again. All strike first is equal, except for when it's not. If an exception can be made for an orc spell, why not for a spear.
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PostSubject: Re: Is spear still worth it?   Sat 24 Oct 2009 - 8:48

Hmm.. you are right. That definately doesn't look right. I understand the "regardless of other circumstances" stems from the original time when this was possible. But with the Rules Review this is definately not right.

You could interpret the "regardless of other circumstances" to just overrule things like 'strike last' from 2-hand-weapons, and then let the spell grant "first strike", which is equal to other "first strikes".

With the current version of the rules it should not be possible to strike before other first strikers other than by having a higher Initative.

I think this one deserves inclusion in the upcoming FAQ...

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PostSubject: Re: Is spear still worth it?   Sat 24 Oct 2009 - 12:42

There's a ruling on Letz Go! In the Orcs favor? I'm happy with that. Woot! Send those boys a pint!

I've had that spell for 3 weeks (6 games) and only cast it once! Lost that game too. [Its such a game breaker!]

I am getting really curious since the group I play with is playing 'strikes first' by the original rules what was/is so horrid about it?
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PostSubject: Re: Is spear still worth it?   Sat 24 Oct 2009 - 13:31

I just felt that if every hits first in hand to hand combat rule was going to be wrapped up into an all encompassing rule called Strike First that the Mob spell "Led'z go" shouldn't be an exception. The Orcs and Goblins list has quite a lot of good stuff in it. Why should it get a feather in its cap with a goes first first exception?
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PostSubject: Re: Is spear still worth it?   Sat 24 Oct 2009 - 13:59

Well having played an Orc warband a little and played against Orc warbands a lot, I'm inclined to want more gruel not less. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Is spear still worth it?   Sat 24 Oct 2009 - 14:10

Really, in my experience Orcs are really strong. Very synergistic tho.
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PostSubject: Re: Is spear still worth it?   Sat 24 Oct 2009 - 14:28

My two cents:

$.01: I also think Orcs/Gobs are a awesome warband, and can hold their weight without that extra feather.
Another $.01: I always considered the "First Strike" from Let'z Go to be wrapped up in the "Strike First" rule, so they go by initiative if they get charged. The errata came after Da Mob rules, so I figured the Strike First without exception was overwritten by the errata.
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PostSubject: Re: Is spear still worth it?   Sat 24 Oct 2009 - 15:09

Da Bank, the SG forums Answer Mod, has ruled that Led'z go is a special case and that Orcs under the influence of this spell strike first first. Unless this decision gets retconned that is how the spell works.

What this means for you and me is that unless our opponents agree to a house rule they are within their rights to demand that their Led'z go orcs strike first first.

Certain people (Da Mob players) usually argue that with Orc's low Initiative the spell is basically useless. I disagree. The spell will still grant Orcs the ability to attack before their opponents in most cases. The only time they will have to compare Initiative is when facing a charging model, a model with a spear in the first round of combat, or when charging a model with Lightning Reflexes. By outmaneuvering their opponent and denying charges they can mitigate this. Regardless, they will attack first on all rounds of combat past the first when buffed by this spell.
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PostSubject: Re: Is spear still worth it?   Sat 24 Oct 2009 - 15:23

JAFisher44 wrote:
Da Bank, the SG forums Answer Mod, has ruled that Led'z go is a special case and that Orcs under the influence of this spell strike first first. Unless this decision gets retconned that is how the spell works.

Because I'm curious, and not at all hostile, what is this 'SG forum' and why should we care?
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PostSubject: Re: Is spear still worth it?   Sat 24 Oct 2009 - 15:31

It is the "Specialist Games" forum, the official Mordheim forum, and the Answer Mods are sanctioned by GW to interpret the rules and give answers which are to be considered official.

Speaking of DaBank: I PM'ed him a few hours ago already and he did give an answer but since he wanted to check with his resources I'll leave it to him to say what's up.

(Seriously, the spell, the warband, is good as is. No need to invent a 'strike first first' for them after the Rules Review just got rid off this chaos Mad )

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PostSubject: Re: Is spear still worth it?   Sat 24 Oct 2009 - 15:36

cianty wrote:
It is the "Specialist Games" forum, the official Mordheim forum, and the Answer Mods are sanctioned by GW to interpret the rules and give answers which are to be considered official.

Oh, really? I didn't think GW cared anymore. They haven't reviewed the rules for about five years, I think.
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PostSubject: Re: Is spear still worth it?   Sat 24 Oct 2009 - 16:04

They don't really care, which is why they pushed the responsibility off on Answer Mods on the SG forums. Right up till they stopped caring enough to even have SG forums.
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PostSubject: Re: Is spear still worth it?   Sat 24 Oct 2009 - 16:34

Strike first chaos--As I said earlier we've been playing by the old rulebook for strike first for the last 3-4 yrs and haven't encountered this chaos.

What are we doing wrong?
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PostSubject: Re: Is spear still worth it?   Sat 24 Oct 2009 - 17:40

Clearly you were doing almost everything wrong.
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PostSubject: Re: Is spear still worth it?   Sat 24 Oct 2009 - 17:56

http://www.sg.tacticalwargames.net/forum/index.php

Yes, SG does not "push" Mordheim like it should but they did authorize another forum to host the SG forum. With that we lost all of the old posts and data. We were told it would be saved but they were unable to save it.

With that on the Letz Go, my first instinct on rereading this was to go with what seems to be my opposite answer from what Fisher has noted and I believe him to be correct on my understanding on this matter a few years ago. There is one interesting part that makes it seems, Letz go overrides.

Ledíz go: The Shamanís howling invigorates the ladz to fight even harder for Gork and Mork. Any Orc or Goblin within 4" of the Shaman will automatically strike first in hand-to-hand combat regardless of other circumstances. The spell only lasts until the caster is Knocked Down, Stunned or taken Out Of Action. Difficulty: 9

Those words in RED really set the tone for the spell. It is a difficulty 9, which the way I roll I would never get it. I will update this on the SG FAQ area soon.
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PostSubject: Re: Is spear still worth it?   Sat 24 Oct 2009 - 17:58

With that, we will post and new RR based on the new things added to the SG forum to work with the 2005 RR. It is time to clear some things up.

As always, I appreciate everyone's help and passion for Mordheim as without us there is no Mordheim.
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PostSubject: Re: Is spear still worth it?   Sat 24 Oct 2009 - 18:53

So, like I said, if an Orc spell can get an exception why not a spear. I never even thought for a second that Da Bank would bend on this. It has been made clear time and again that Orcs will get this feather in their cap.

Da Bank: You are just as likely as anyone else to pull this spell off. there is roughly a 28% chance to hit a 9 on 2D6. The problem is that once it is cast successfully it gives a huge advantage, and, if played correctly, is very hard to get rid of. This is true even if it only gives the strike first rule. If it trumps everything it just turns the screws a little more.

Your argument is that the phrase "regardless of other circumstances" sets the tone for the spell. I would counter with this: The intent of the rules review was to simplify and balance the game, to eliminate confusion and to standardize things. The Led'z go spell was written before the rules review, and as such should be subject to it. Why is it necessary to give an exception to this one spell? Would removing absolute advantage in a few limited cases in order to bring the spell in line with the rest of the game ruin the spell? No. It would behave the same in the vast majority of cases. It is simply adding insult to injury that Orcs get this exception on top of what would already be a very good spell.
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PostSubject: Re: Is spear still worth it?   Sat 24 Oct 2009 - 19:21

Difficulty 9 isn't that bad considering the last line in the sentence:
Quote :
The spell only lasts until the caster is Knocked Down, Stunned or taken Out Of Action. Difficulty: 9

Obviously, this is just my opinion, but I think 3-6 orcs being able to "strike first" (as opposed to "strike first first") for THE ENTIRE GAME is fantastic. Obviously, you'd need to keep your shaman out of action, but it'd be well worth it IMHO.

either way it ends up officially, I'll probably never allow a "strike first first"

Von Kurst wrote:
Strike first chaos--As I said earlier we've been playing by the old rulebook for strike first for the last 3-4 yrs and haven't encountered this chaos.

What are we doing wrong?

Hey man, if you've never had any problem with it, keep it up. I can definitely imagine people arguing over "no, my strike first is first." "No, mine says regardless of other circumstances." "No, I have a Spear, Charged and farted.", etc. Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Is spear still worth it?   Sat 24 Oct 2009 - 19:31

JAFisher44 wrote:

Your argument is that the phrase "regardless of other circumstances" sets the tone for the spell. I would counter with this: The intent of the rules review was to simplify and balance the game, to eliminate confusion and to standardize things. The Led'z go spell was written before the rules review, and as such should be subject to it. Why is it necessary to give an exception to this one spell? Would removing absolute advantage in a few limited cases in order to bring the spell in line with the rest of the game ruin the spell? No. It would behave the same in the vast majority of cases. It is simply adding insult to injury that Orcs get this exception on top of what would already be a very good spell.

The rules review was done along our updates were to note those grey areas. Grey areas could be considered balance but I have not. I see what you are saying.

As noted I emailed the creator of the Orcs to get his wisdom and then follow up on a ruling on it.

LOL, you have not seen me roll. I am lucky to win 50% of my games.
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PostSubject: Re: Is spear still worth it?   Sat 24 Oct 2009 - 19:33

@Ashton....same thing I noted with Fisher a 9 difficulty is not bad but my dice rolling is notorious for being horrendous. LOL.

The Letz go is being reviewed again and as noted once I hear back from the writer's intent then we can go from there.
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