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 Is spear still worth it?

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Admin Tom
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PostSubject: Re: Is spear still worth it?   Tue 20 May 2008 - 18:13

Haha! It's so funny how we keep talking without actually answering each other's posts Very Happy

Un dialogo fra sordi as the italians would say.

@Ashton: I think I understand what you mean Ash. I was only talking about the first round of combat. I meant that the lance is pretty useless for Skaven insofar as they would strike first anyway due to high initiative (unless they charge a spear wielding model). Of course you are right: if your lance-skaven came to fight with another lance-guy, you would have an advantage due to higher initiative.

@ Cianty: now you have me seriously doubting my intelligence Shocked

Why did I play this wrong?

The elf charges my goblin. My gobling has a lance, hence he strikes first.

Dark elves have no "always strike first" rule that I am aware of in Mordheim, so it does not boil down to initiative, and it is the first round of close combat (I was charged) so ---> lance bearer strikes first. Even though he gets charged.

Please do explain cos I really feel kind of stupid, considering this spear business was kind of a given for me which i NEVER had any problems with.
What makes me uncomfortable is that you are always right in these matters and I really don't get what's supposed to be so complicated about this rule. It seems dead easy to me... unsless of course I am missing the main point which everyone seems to understand.

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PostSubject: Re: Is spear still worth it?   Tue 20 May 2008 - 22:05

hahaha

ahahahah

I mean this is the best possible way: Tom, you're wrong.

When a model has a spear, and he is charged: BOTH MODELS "STRIKE FIRST." Thus the higher initiative actually strikes first:

Here is the order of attack:

Strike First - Higher Initiative
Strike First - lower Initiative
Higher Initiative
lower Initiative

Admin Tom wrote:
The elf charges my goblin. My gobling has a lance, hence he strikes first.

The Elf Charges and thus has "Strike First"
The Goblin has a spear thus has "Strike First" for this first round of combat.

So the char with the highest initiative actually attacks first: ie Elf

(which is also why spears are good for skaven/elves: they really will strike first when charged by a human.... but if a goblin with i3 gets charged, he will most likely go last... (even with the spear))

Wink

<3

btw, Awesome Avatar =]
Edit: ahaha I keep looking at your avatar and reading "Complaint?" haha I don't know how, but it looks like it. hahaha
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PostSubject: Re: Is spear still worth it?   Wed 21 May 2008 - 1:35

exactly ....spear is only really worth it for models with relative high initiataive ...
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PostSubject: Re: Is spear still worth it?   Wed 21 May 2008 - 5:07

Thank you Ash now I get it!

Damn I'm slow sometimes Very Happy

Hang on, my brain must be here somewhere... I left it right there, I know it.... *stumbles away*

In my defence: I do not consider a charge to be an "always strikes first" type of special rule. More like: the charger "gets to roll first UNLESS there is a special rule that overrides that" (it's called "special rule" for a reason, whereas a charge is just a "rule"). So I would say the spear bearer still strikes first. I would agree with Deaf Nala about the range of the weapon being the reason for this.

I think this is how the spear rule was intended.

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PostSubject: Re: Is spear still worth it?   Wed 21 May 2008 - 5:22

Boehm wrote:
exactly ....spear is only really worth it for models with relative high initiataive ...

True. Now I understand what you guys are all about.

BUT

I think this was not the idea behind the spear rule. For me it looks like a means for LOW initiative models to survive a charge by a warrior with higher initiative.

Try to move away from a literal interpretation of the rules for a moment, read between the lines and picture a spear wielding peasant standing his ground against a charging knight with sword and shield.

Who strikes first in your opinion?

For me it's the peasant. Who hasn't seen Braveheart?
My point: I think the spear special rule overrides the charge "rule"

Just my humble opinion.

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PostSubject: Re: Is spear still worth it?   Wed 21 May 2008 - 6:59

Well, this isn't about "opinions". The rules are very clear about this and I thought I described the whole matter in enough detail in that previous post (did you read that, Tom?).

"Strike first" is an ability you get for wielding a spear (please keep to spear because a lance is an actual Mordheim weapon with completely different rules), charging or having the Lightning reflexes skill. All of these "strike first" bonuses are equal.

Anyways, I totally agree with you, Tom, about the idea behind spears being totally different than what spears do now. If you want to maintain the original intent of the spear while staying in line with the clarifications from the rules review you can house rule spears to grant a +10 Initiative when being charged. The question would still be what about Lightning Reflexes? Shouldn't they also always strike first against a charger? But what about charger swho are wielding a spear or have Lightning Reflexes themselves? You see, house ruling these things leads back to the old confusions and problems we had before the erratum.

@Tom: Sweet new avatar, btw.

@Ashton: Those were some very funny lines you wrote and they really made me smile.

@DeafNala: That's why I'll do it like the free masons and won't discuss religion or politics on this or any other board. Mordheim rules, however, are in most cases pretty clear and discussing them won't make us all wanna slit each others throats (or so I hope Neutral ).

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PostSubject: Re: Is spear still worth it?   Wed 21 May 2008 - 8:51

Just because I prefer to know the precise rule, as opposed to verbal explanations (cianty is right on the money (as always)), here's the clip from the eratta:

Mordheim Errata wrote:
Page 34, Who Strikes First
Replace the paragraph with the following:
“...

Sometimes a model will be allowed to ‘strike first’ for some reason. Most commonly this is because they charged in that turn, but some equipment, skills and spells produce the same effect. If only one model ‘strikes first’ then it does so and the remainder of the combatants strike in Initiative order as described above.

If there are several models who are each entitled to ‘strike first’, then they determine the order of combat between themselves by Initiative, as described above. Once all those that were eligible to ‘strike first’ have fought, any other combatants fight in Initiative order.”

Admin Tom wrote:

My point: I think the spear special rule overrides the charge "rule"
I hear you, and thus the reason for this thread Wink

I think the house rule of +1 (2?) Initiative on the first round of combat balances out the spear pretty well.... If you're extremely slow (ie 2) you still don't get to attack first agaisnt an Black Skaven... they are just soo much faster than you (even with a spear), you just can't time the attack right to be first.
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PostSubject: Re: Is spear still worth it?   Wed 21 May 2008 - 9:55

Ashton wrote:
I keep looking at your avatar and reading "Complaint?" haha I don't know how, but it looks like it. hahaha

LOL, it's quite fitting for an Admin's avatar aswell, isn't it? Very Happy

Thanks for the clarification Cianty. So the bottom line is: I have no idea how to REALLY handle the spear business.

I think I will adopt your suggestion of the +1 to initiative when charged.

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PostSubject: Re: Is spear still worth it?   Wed 21 May 2008 - 10:01

yeah its a nice easy fix ... Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Is spear still worth it?   Wed 21 May 2008 - 10:09

Admin Tom wrote:
Ashton wrote:
I keep looking at your avatar and reading "Complaint?" haha I don't know how, but it looks like it. hahaha

LOL, it's quite fitting for an Admin's avatar aswell, isn't it? Very Happy

Haha yea, it's perfect, esp since it looks like you're going to jab that paintbrush into the complainer's eye Wink pirat
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PostSubject: Re: Is spear still worth it?   Wed 21 May 2008 - 10:17

LOOOOL! Very Happy *poke*

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PostSubject: Re: Is spear still worth it?   Sun 25 May 2008 - 5:51

We have an Admin. Our Fearless Leader & Guiding Light, Tom, And we have a group of Moderators, who keep us on track [more or less]. I'd like to apply for a "NEW" position: Devil's Advocate, Cool, huh? erm, okay: never mind. Suspect
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PostSubject: Re: Is spear still worth it?   Mon 26 May 2008 - 23:40

Ugh, my poor ungors...

Oh well, we'll have to change the way we're doing things, unless of course everybody else in the group decides NO. I'm not thinking they will though, as they are all speedy rat-men and shooty Reiklanders.
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PostSubject: Re: Is spear still worth it?   Sat 31 May 2008 - 11:46

Even though I agree with the "spirit" of spears I am forced to follow the letter of the rules on this one. Well look at it this way, it makes an initiative increase more attractive for henchmen groups!

On a related note, Led'z Go makes all orcs within 4" of the Shaman strike first, and it lasts multiple turns! I play against a player who piles his whole warband on top of his shaman and just waits for you to charge while shooting with crossbows and a hotchland long rifle! Scary!
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PostSubject: Re: Is spear still worth it?   Sat 31 May 2008 - 12:04

Pathfinder Dubstyles wrote:
It makes an initiative increase more attractive for henchmen groups!
That is true.

Pathfinder Dubstyles wrote:
On a related note, Led'z Go makes all orcs within 4" of the Shaman strike first
Which means they will still normally strike last since they have initiative 2-3 (same as if they had a spear)

Pathfinder Dubstyles wrote:
[orcs] shooting with ... a hotchland long rifle! Scary!
That's quite a tactic, but I didn't think orcs can get hockland long rifles
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PostSubject: Re: Is spear still worth it?   Fri 23 Oct 2009 - 14:11

Hehe. Just found this thread coz I saw a comment about a spear rule change thingy.

Basically a Strike First is a Strike First is a Strike First. No priority questions here? If both fighters have Strike First FOR ANY REASON they resolve combat in Initiative order...right?

I think we've played it like this so far...we'll continue. Clear as day...but I'm still confused anew after reading this 'wall of text'.




Thanks for discussing it...as there are many unclear things undefined in Mordheim...
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PostSubject: Re: Is spear still worth it?   Fri 23 Oct 2009 - 14:19

Sven The Mighty wrote:
If both fighters have Strike First FOR ANY REASON they resolve combat in Initiative order...right?

Yep. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Is spear still worth it?   Fri 23 Oct 2009 - 17:04

Ugh, I don't like it honestly ... I think it should be Strikes First, Charges, Regular Attacks ... so Lightning Reflexes, Spears and Led'z Go would all be done via initiative but still over ride chargers.

Just my thought.
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PostSubject: Re: Is spear still worth it?   Fri 23 Oct 2009 - 17:31

Mortimer wrote:
Ugh, I don't like it honestly ... I think it should be Strikes First, Charges, Regular Attacks ... so Lightning Reflexes, Spears and Led'z Go would all be done via initiative but still over ride chargers.

Just my thought.

That's pretty much how it's done in WFB right now - "charging" is always overridden by Always Strikes First.
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PostSubject: Re: Is spear still worth it?   Fri 23 Oct 2009 - 17:34

House rule it. I think both the old and new spear rules suck.

What's wrong with simultaneous stikes? I'd like to think that changing the Strike First rule to allow simultaneous strikes when two or more models have Strike First in effect would have been a more fun/funny option.

But I don't want advocate changing the rules portion of the book...
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PostSubject: Re: Is spear still worth it?   Fri 23 Oct 2009 - 18:08

To be honest, I don't mind the new rules for spears. Then again, I play Lizardmen and orcs...

Orcs don't use spears in my head, but skinks do...And they have the initiative to make it worth it.

Giving spears to slow gits to make them strike before a charging elf takes away a big bonus of having a high initiative in my opinion.
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PostSubject: Re: Is spear still worth it?   Fri 23 Oct 2009 - 18:26

Very interesting. This thread cleared up a bunch of rules for me. However, I still think that the spear should go before chargers, and that's how I'll probably play it. Maybe I'll try both ways, just to see what works best.
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PostSubject: Re: Is spear still worth it?   Fri 23 Oct 2009 - 19:19

CygnusMaximus wrote:
That's pretty much how it's done in WFB right now - "charging" is always overridden by Always Strikes First.
Battle-wise, I can see a difference between a unit of close-ranks spearman stopping a charge and a lone charger getting around a single spear.

Game-balance-wise, with the multiple attacks available to Mordheim models over WHFB models, there is a huge advantage single model vs single model to getting attacks before the opponent. I'd rather a high-Initiative charging model get these attacks before a low-Initiative spear-wielder. 10gc is too low a cost for "Always Strikes First" in Mordheim, and makes Spears king of all weapons.

However, spears as they are now are definitely not worth 10gc. Fluff-wise, they shouldn't be 10gc either - much too rare for this weapon. That's why our group has joined others in reducing the cost for spears (we're testing out 5gc now - the equivalent of axe), and following the current rules for First Strike.

EDIT: I went back and read the entire thread. For those interested in keeping the simplicity of the Rules Review decisions regarding differing sources of First Strike, please look carefully at cianty's house rules suggestion of granting an initiative bonus to spears. I know other people throw out the First Strike rules completely, and grant bonuses to Initative instead. If the spear "fix" we're testing is not satisfactory to our group, we may well follow suit.
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PostSubject: Re: Is spear still worth it?   Fri 23 Oct 2009 - 19:34

Wyldhunt, I'm curious, how do you play it when a model with a spear charges a model with lightning reflexes? Does the combination of charging AND having a spear override the ASF (always strike first) of the Lightning Reflexes warrior? How about a warrior with Lightning Reflexes charging a spear weilder? Does it go to initiative still?

Just wondering.
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PostSubject: Re: Is spear still worth it?   Fri 23 Oct 2009 - 19:40

Per the Mordheim Rules Review wording, all sources of First Strike grant only that - they do not stack. All models which have First Strike (from any source), then compare Initiative order to determine when they roll their attacks.

So a model with a spear charging a model with Lightning Reflexes would compare Initiative to determine who goes first.

These are the official rules. I prefer them to spear "Always Strikes First" for Mordheim, but they're still not as refined as they could be. To do that, sources of First Strike should instead grant Initative bonuses to their attacks, just like an Ithilmar weapon does. It just depends upon how detailed you want to get in your rules...
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