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 Is spear still worth it?

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Ashton
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PostSubject: Is spear still worth it?   Mon 12 May 2008 - 17:09

So cianty showed me the rules review, and I started going through it again.

Using just my '99 book, I was split between Sword and Spear... and I thought they were pretty even. (and both are 10gc) I think updating the "strike first" rule was a great idea, and that is fair, but now a spear is unwieldy TOO. so you can't use a second weapon with it, and u go by initiative when you are charged.

The "unwieldy" just kills the spear for me, and I don't think it's worth it anymore.

(which is Ironic since I just painted my "first" skaven with a spear)

What do you guys think?
Do you still use spears?
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PostSubject: Re: Is spear still worth it?   Mon 12 May 2008 - 20:58

I agree 100.117 percent! My group had this same discussion when my two new spear wielding brethren were charges by a rat ogre. I let everyone know I would strike last much to my own dismay and we all agreed that with unwieldy, a spear should not cost 10gc. I think 5-8gc is more reasonable. The unwieldy rule makes a lot of sense to me, so a price reduction is all I can suggest.
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PostSubject: Re: Is spear still worth it?   Mon 12 May 2008 - 23:46

There are seldom spears in my group of players anymore.

I consider a halberd to be unwieldy, but not a spear. I have tried a real spear, and it surprisingly easy to work with. No wonder a lot of peasants got it when a war was coming Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Is spear still worth it?   Mon 12 May 2008 - 23:59

Well, although I've never fought with a spear, if it's 6-8 feet long I can definitely imagine needing two hands to control it... so I agree that the rule makes sense... and I think I must agree with you pathfinder. Reducing the cost is really the only remaining option.

it would be nice for skaven... since they would finally have a good weapon under 10gc, but I think that's on purpose. =]

Anyway, glad I'm not alone.
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PostSubject: Re: Is spear still worth it?   Tue 13 May 2008 - 0:35

The problem was that many 'powergamers' would simply equip their warriors with two Spears. That's 2 Attacks that strike first and totally lame.

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PostSubject: Re: Is spear still worth it?   Tue 13 May 2008 - 3:25

Spear is still worth it ... - if u have ok to high initiative ...

Spear being unwieldy is less of a disadvantage when playwing with +1 AS from shield in CC ...( I do believe that whats meant b y shield / "handweapon" combo - is any one handed weapon ?? ie. to exclude tailfighting etc.)
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PostSubject: Re: Is spear still worth it?   Tue 13 May 2008 - 4:00

lord siwoc wrote:
There are seldom spears in my group of players anymore.

I consider a halberd to be unwieldy, but not a spear. I have tried a real spear, and it surprisingly easy to work with. No wonder a lot of peasants got it when a war was coming Razz

AMEN!
The reality of the situation is that, if a Real Warrior charged another Real warrior armed with a spear & shield, he could expect to receive an attack before he could strike back due to the greater reach of the spear.
It's rather sad that rules have to ignore reality to compensate for power gamers, rules lawyers, & other lower forms of life. If you ever want an earful, just ask me what I think of WHFB charge rule.
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PostSubject: Re: Is spear still worth it?   Tue 13 May 2008 - 4:27

I think the "unwieldy" rule makes perfect sense.

Depending on the length and weight of the spear, you can use it with one hand, that's not the problem, but fighting with a spear and another weapon in the other hand is unrealistic.

It's quite common to have a knive at hand when fighting with a spear two-handed, but you only use it when the enemy gets past your spear.
This can't be really represented with the Mordheim rules, so the "unwieldy" rule is qiúite fitting.

What I don't understand is why they took "strikes first" and replaced it with "opponents strike in Initiative-order".
That really makes the spear useless (expect for elves Elf ).
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PostSubject: Re: Is spear still worth it?   Tue 20 May 2008 - 2:14

For spears to be cool, I would suggest a rule change so they would be more in line with the LotR game. An assist attack, you attack through one of your own minis, giving the assistet mini +1 attack with the spear wielding peep´s Str.

that would be so nice...
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PostSubject: Re: Is spear still worth it?   Tue 20 May 2008 - 8:51

Solinan wrote:
An assist attack, you attack through one of your own minis, giving the assistet mini +1 attack with the spear wielding peep´s Str.
Yea... I think that's definitely too powerful for Mordheim. Since the game is so individual unit based, being able to be in combat but not be attacked is what everyone is looking for (for their sorcerer, weakling heroes etc.) I can see how that would work well in an army based game though.
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PostSubject: Re: Is spear still worth it?   Tue 20 May 2008 - 9:24

It's probably just me, but, if a house rule is going to be used in lieu of the "new" & much despised one, it would seem to be easier to use the "old" strikes-first-when-charged rule & simply say the ONLY thing you can use the off hand for is carrying/using a shield.

The spear/Squig prodder is still useful for Night Goblins as it extends the Squig control area from 6" to 12". We don't want our Squigs running amok, now do we? Rolling Eyes
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PostSubject: Re: Is spear still worth it?   Tue 20 May 2008 - 10:26

DeafNala wrote:
it would seem to be easier to use the "old" strikes-first-when-charged rule & simply say the ONLY thing you can use the off hand for is carrying/using a shield

Exactly. That is how I have always played it and always will. And that's how it is written in my .pdf version of the rulebook.

Who came up with "strikes in order of initiative"? I have never seen that (please post a link if you find it) and think it is nonsense.

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PostSubject: Re: Is spear still worth it?   Tue 20 May 2008 - 10:38

Admin Tom wrote:
I have never seen that (please post a link if you find it) and think it is nonsense.

Mordheim Errata wrote:
Page 34, Who Strikes First
Replace the paragraph with the following:
“Normally, models fight in order of descending Initiative with the highest striking first. If their Initiatives are equal, roll a dice to see who fights first. If a model stood up in the Recovery phase of that turn, then he will strike last irrespective of any other circumstances.

Sometimes a model will be allowed to ‘strike first’ for some reason. Most commonly this is because they charged in that turn, but some equipment, skills and spells produce the same effect. If only one model ‘strikes first’ then it does so and the remainder of the combatants strike in Initiative order as described above.

If there are several models who are each entitled to ‘strike first’, then they determine the order of combat between themselves by Initiative, as described above. Once all those that were eligible to ‘strike first’ have fought, any other combatants fight in Initiative order.”

....

Page 42, Spear
Replace the Strike First rule with:

“Strike first: A warrior with a spear strikes first in the first turn of a hand-to-hand combat.”

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1330026_Mord_Errata.pdf

Anyone else see the bad as new website on GW.com?
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PostSubject: Re: Is spear still worth it?   Tue 20 May 2008 - 12:39

Thanks for the link Ash.

It confirms what I was thinking: i don't understand what this thread is about. I knew that rule and I have already read this errata a long time ago.

To me these 2 paragraphs say the following:

A model with a spear strikes first (only in the first round of HtH comabt). If there are several spear bearers, they resolve their attacks in order of initiative.

So? Where's the problem? Can someone please explain it to me, because to me there is no more obvious rule (and only few that make more sense) Smile

Thanks.

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PostSubject: Re: Is spear still worth it?   Tue 20 May 2008 - 13:58

RIGHT ON, OH FEARLESS LEADER!

It is scant wonder that you have become my hero! Sir, yes sir!
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PostSubject: Re: Is spear still worth it?   Tue 20 May 2008 - 14:39

Let me explain it to you, Tom...

Models that charge other models strike first in the first turn of the following close combat. They sort of temporarily gain a strike first special rule. Now models with spears also gain strike first in the first round of a close combat. In the original set of rules this caused confusion (it definately did even if you do not like the new ruling) because there were different instances of "strike first" which had different priority: a first-striking defender with a spear attacked before the first striking charger which attacked before the rest. Add chargers with spears and models with the Lightning reflexes special skill to that and you end up with an endless number of models which all strike first in the first turn of a close combat. Each of them had a different level of priority and some of the constellations were not only unclear but simply not even explained so you had to house rule it.

The Rules Review commitee changed all those various versions of strike first and made them equal. Now whenever more than one model gets to strike first you determine the order of attacks by Initiative amongst all first-strikers and then the other models attack in order of Initiative. This simplifies the entire issue immensely and solves all possible ambiguities in a - as I think - very elegant way.

Lastly, the downside to this erratum (<- singular of errata as I was told) is that spears are now nearly worthless. They used to be the weapon of choice for cheap henchmen such as Goblins and Ungors to have a chance of surviving the otherwise overwhelming charges of enemy heroes. I strongly advise you all not to go back to the original (unclear, confusing and ambigious) version of how the whole 'strike first' thing worked but instead house ruling spears to give defenders an Initiative bonus of +1 (+2?) in the first turn of a close combat or something similar. This should then end up as you want the spears to work without resurrecting the original problems.

Cheers,
Chris

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PostSubject: Re: Is spear still worth it?   Tue 20 May 2008 - 14:44

Admin Tom wrote:
i don't understand what this thread is about.

honestly, I just found how my weapon of choice had been changed, and I don't like it (as most people are with change =]). I was just wondering if I was alone in this feeling.

Admin Tom wrote:
So? Where's the problem?
EDIT: That Cianty is a fast and thorough one. Well written cianty. I like that Idea a lot actually. *props*

obviously this doesn't change much for skaven, but just about everyone else, there's a good chance they'll go last, even after 10 gc and dropping their second attack. ie: IMHO club or ax is just as good if not better... (in a game where two attacks beats 1 attack and a sheild 90% of the time)

That's how I see it... and reading over this again I sound angry. lol I'm really not angry, just curious about how people who have actually played with this rule find it.

thanks,

Edit: side note: Cianty, you're adherence to the current Mordheim Rules is inspiring and definitely rubbing off. When I saw the errata, i was =( about some of the rule changes, but I understand the purpose of sticking to the current rule set, with minor house rules. (I totally defended the current ruleset at warseer recently, and trashed some noob who made a bunch of new rules. You'd be proud Wink) (do you not hate me anymore? lol jk <3)
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PostSubject: Re: Is spear still worth it?   Tue 20 May 2008 - 15:04

Actually it sounds more like the Rules Committee got tangled up in their own "special" rules and decided altering reality was expediant. scratch
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PostSubject: Re: Is spear still worth it?   Tue 20 May 2008 - 15:04

Ashton wrote:

Edit: side note: Cianty, you're adherence to the current Mordheim Rules is inspiring and definitely rubbing off. When I saw the errata, i was =( about some of the rule changes, but I understand the purpose of sticking to the current rule set, with minor house rules. (I totally defended the current ruleset at warseer recently, and trashed some noob who made a bunch of new rules. You'd be proud Wink) (do you not hate me anymore? lol jk <3)

Oh, I did read the thread on Warseer about starting a new campaign etc etc. I check out most of the bigger forums regularly even if as a lurker only. I'm often tempted to write something but I don't usually.

I know many people like to ignore the Rules Review and FAQ because it is official. It this seems that this is mostly due to a grduge they hold against the powers that be because they stopped supporting the game. People need to be aware that the Rules Review wasn't cooked up by some CEO in an ivory tower. The Mordheim rules commitee tried to correct things which were brought up by the players. It was the gamers' observations, questions and thoughts which lead to the rules addressed in the Rules Review.

EDIT:
DeafNala wrote:
Actually it sounds more like the Rules Committee got tangled up in their own "special" rules and decided altering reality was expediant. scratch

Well, tabletop games are not meant to represent reality. They are meant to be fun and balanced. I'm not sure I'd still like Mordheim if the rules were trying to simulate reality (I'm not talking about the 'fantasy' part, of course). However, making spears more effective (and probably more realistic to boot) by giving them an Initiative bonus against attackers might work in this case.

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PostSubject: Re: Is spear still worth it?   Tue 20 May 2008 - 15:08

Ok thanks for the explaination guys.

I am using spears on my gobs, and i have to say that it was actually worth it to strike first against a charging elf in my last game... worth insomuch as the elf ended up dead and the goblin (me) rejoiced.

Although I agree that 10gc might be a little overpriced, a spear is certainly not worthless for certain types of troops.

Ashton, you are right: spears are useless to skaven. I'll grant you that.

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PostSubject: Re: Is spear still worth it?   Tue 20 May 2008 - 15:12

Admin Tom wrote:

I am using spears on my gobs, and i have to say that it was actually worth it to strike first against a charging elf in my last game... worth insomuch as the elf ended up dead and the goblin (me) rejoiced.

So you played it wrong... Razz

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PostSubject: Re: Is spear still worth it?   Tue 20 May 2008 - 15:39

Two Quotes come to mind

"A difference of opinion is what makes a horse race." Mark Twain

"I may not believe in what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
Oliver Wendel Holmes


And a spear is most certainly not worth harsh words between friends. Let the debate continue!
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PostSubject: Re: Is spear still worth it?   Tue 20 May 2008 - 16:11

DeafNala wrote:
"I may not believe in what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
Oliver Wendel Holmes


I particualrly like this one.

DeafNala wrote:
And a spear is most certainly not worth harsh words between friends. Let the debate continue!

I don't think anyone here was using any harsh words. However, if I came across rude then apologize for that!

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PostSubject: Re: Is spear still worth it?   Tue 20 May 2008 - 16:50

@deaf: Good quotes, my friend. Wink

cianty wrote:
DeafNala wrote:
And a spear is most certainly not worth harsh words between friends. Let the debate continue!
I don't think anyone here was using any harsh words. However, if I came across rude then apologize for that!
You didn't come across rude. This is a very productive discussion(debate=)), and I am very glad you joined in, as i was hoping you'd be able to shed some glory on the rules (as you did).

And I have a feeling Tom may still not be understanding the rule completely *cower* *cower* Don't ban me oh lord of Boring Mordheim *bow* *bow lower* *insert more praise* =]
Admin Tom wrote:
Ashton, you are right: spears are useless to skaven. I'll grant you that.

Ashton wrote:
....obviously this [rule change] doesn't change much for skaven, but just about everyone else, there's a good chance they'll go last,...
I was trying to say, Spears are ONLY useful for Skaven, as their initiative makes them strike first when it boils down to initiative test
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PostSubject: Re: Is spear still worth it?   Tue 20 May 2008 - 17:04

cianty, you are a treasure. Of course, I have the same feelings about Tom, & Ashton, & Tortiou & Adm'rul Kurgan & well you catch my drift. Rules, politics & religion are subjects to debate with caution, at least from my limited experience with them.

I'm glad you liked O.W.Holmes' quote. It's a personal favorite & an attitude worth striving for as a free, thinking [sometimes for moi] creature. Now, if you don't mind, I'll go back to being a crazy old man.
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