HomeFAQSearchRegisterUsergroupsBlogLog inGolden Tom 2014 Thread!

Share | 
 

 Orc spell: Led'z Go

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
Go to page : Previous  1, 2
AuthorMessage
Keylan
Champion
Champion


Posts : 52
Trading Reputation : 0
Join date : 2009-12-02
Location : Hamburg / Germany

Personal Info
Primary Warband played:
Achievements earned: none

PostSubject: Re: Orc spell: Led'z Go   Wed 8 Sep 2010 - 4:17

So i think everybody can agree the rules wording isnt 100% clear.

So its about the interpretation of the authors intension.

So beside the spells name lets take a look at the backround text given to the rule

Code:
The Shaman’s howling invigorates the ladz to fight even harder for Gork and Mork.

here the author refers to multible targests, "the ladz" is obviusly plural.

So for me its clear how to use the spell as i think i got the authors intension.


For those guys having a problem with the "or goblin" therm, the wording or refers to two diffrent logical operators (OR, XOR), to make clear witch one u want to refer to u have to say "either or" or "and or" just with the therm "or" there is no reference to the logial operator so u need the context to know wich one is intendet.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
mweaver
Etheral
Etheral


Posts : 1411
Trading Reputation : 0
Join date : 2010-01-13
Location : South Texas, U.S.A.

PostSubject: Re: Orc spell: Led'z Go   Wed 8 Sep 2010 - 5:51

Speckie: "But no really, it's 'any' and therefore every ork or goblin".

"any" is not synonymous with “all”! I have a rock. I can give it to any of you. I cannot give it to all of you. The shaman can make any orc or goblin go first. He cannot make all orcs and goblins go first.

The fluff section of the spell does use the plural, as Keylan notes. But (a) that’s the fluff, not the rule, and (b) the spell can affect multiple orcs and goblins, just not in the same turn.

The interpretation that the spell affects one orc or goblin at a time assumes the author said what he meant (yes, he could have said if differently - but the fact that alternative wording is possible does not mean the original wording is flawed or incorrect).

The interpretation that the spell affects all orcs and goblins assumes the author screwed up his wording.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
WarbossKurgan
Distinguished Poster
Distinguished Poster


Posts : 2867
Trading Reputation : 0
Join date : 2007-10-04
Age : 45
Location : Morkchester, UK

Personal Info
Primary Warband played: Orcs & Goblins Orcs & Goblins
Achievements earned: None

PostSubject: Re: Orc spell: Led'z Go   Wed 8 Sep 2010 - 6:27

Just to really throw so oil on this fire, let's look at some other spells and compare the wording:

Prayers of Sigmar wrote:
Healing Hand Difficulty 5

Laying hands upon a wounded comrade, the servant of Sigmar calls upon his Lord to heal the
warrior’s wounds.


Any one model within 2" of the Priest (including himself) may be healed. The warrior is restored
to his full quota of Wounds. In addition, if any friendly models within 2" are stunned or knocked
down, they immediately come to their senses, stand up, and continue fighting as normal.

Prayers of Sigmar wrote:
Hearts of Steel Difficulty 8

As the three words of power are spoken, waves of glory surround the servant of Sigmar. The
faithful are heartened by the warrior god’s presence.


Any allied warriors within 8" of the warrior become immune to Fear and All Alone tests. In
addition, the whole warband gains +1 to any Rout tests they have to make. The effects of this spell
last until the caster is knocked down, stunned or put out of action. If cast again the effects are not
cumulative, ie, the maximum bonus to Rout tests remains +1.

"Any one" vs. "Any"?
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://www.flameon.co.uk
mweaver
Etheral
Etheral


Posts : 1411
Trading Reputation : 0
Join date : 2010-01-13
Location : South Texas, U.S.A.

PostSubject: Re: Orc spell: Led'z Go   Wed 8 Sep 2010 - 7:34

Hearts of steel specifies "any allied warriorS" [plural]. Ledz Go specifies any orc [singular] or [not "and"] goblin [singlular] is affected. It is not just the usage of "any" instead of "all" or "any one", it is also the use of singular orc OR singular goblin.

Again, to assume it means all orcs and goblins within range, you have to assume the author incorrectly used "any" when he meant "all", he incorrectly used the singular of "orc" when he meant "orcs", that he used "or" when he meant to use "and", and that he used the singular "goblin" when he meant to use "goblins".

To me, it is the simpler answer that he meant what he said. After all, he got it right in Hearts of Steel when he meant it to affect all allied models...
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Opheliate
Venerable Ancient
Venerable Ancient


Posts : 855
Trading Reputation : 0
Join date : 2009-11-12
Age : 31
Location : Sweden

Personal Info
Primary Warband played: Skaven Skaven
Achievements earned: none

PostSubject: Re: Orc spell: Led'z Go   Wed 8 Sep 2010 - 10:01

Hehe, this is such a surreal discussion Smile

I accept both arguments, which makes me only count the argument based on the spell description I mentioned earleir. "Lets go" is something you shout out, not tell a single guy. At least if youre an orc.

This must be the author who hasnt described the spell correctly, cuz all of the arguments for either option seems viable to me.

How about this; lets roll a d6 about it. On a 4-6, the official standpoint is that the spell only targets ONE orc OR goblin thumbsup
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://sites.google.com/site/denofdamnation/
Speckie
Captain
Captain


Posts : 74
Trading Reputation : 0
Join date : 2010-09-05

PostSubject: Re: Orc spell: Led'z Go   Wed 8 Sep 2010 - 10:14

it's singular (as in not plural) due to the or... otherwise I'm sure it would be plural.

Any man or woman over the age of 16 must join the army.... I'm sure in world war 2 they wouldn't have just wanted 1 person over the age of 16...

irrelevant I hear you say? NAY SIR... sorry just had the urge to use caps and speak old Englihs and stuff... but no seriously...

Any orc or goblin over the age of 16 must join the army.
Any orc or goblin over the age of 16 is affected by the spell
Any orc or goblin within 4" is affected by the spell
Any who disagree with me now will be molested... and I don't just mean the first person to do it! Smile

You see dawg?

Any is only singular when it's obvious... for example the chocolates... "Which one can i have " "any you like"... the guy asked for one... normally generous people follow this by "have more than one if you want" but I dont cause i hate people, so glad I'm not human.

Or any is singular when it's ... "Any strong orc or goblin here who can help me lift this table".. in this case you'd assume they meant one orc because it's a table, hence where your confusion lies, but as it is "any orc or goblin within 4 inches" it's the 4 inches that is important not the strong man, so It's not a singular modelt hat's being affected but any orc within 4 inches of me.

Going back to the fluff (though i know it's not hardcore and set instone enough to be considered real shizz) It's a shout that the shaman does to encourage people... what only one orc hears and the others are miraculously deaf for that turn?

Really do see where you're comming from, but also really believe you to be wrong... (you being all those who disagree so bowdown!... no?... please?)

Though I am starting to cry because semantics are so unbelievably dull to have a 2 page forum discussion over (though I really REALLY do see you point, hebnce why I am arguing the toss so much XD)

but yeh I think we should settle it at the fact that both sides have given their view and it should just be left to interpretation. okay? kthnxbai!

-Speckie
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Opheliate
Venerable Ancient
Venerable Ancient


Posts : 855
Trading Reputation : 0
Join date : 2009-11-12
Age : 31
Location : Sweden

Personal Info
Primary Warband played: Skaven Skaven
Achievements earned: none

PostSubject: Re: Orc spell: Led'z Go   Wed 8 Sep 2010 - 10:50

Only one thing left to say, I think:

Hear hear!
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://sites.google.com/site/denofdamnation/
mweaver
Etheral
Etheral


Posts : 1411
Trading Reputation : 0
Join date : 2010-01-13
Location : South Texas, U.S.A.

PostSubject: Re: Orc spell: Led'z Go   Wed 8 Sep 2010 - 15:56

Dull? Not hardly!

Back to top Go down
View user profile
WarbossKurgan
Distinguished Poster
Distinguished Poster


Posts : 2867
Trading Reputation : 0
Join date : 2007-10-04
Age : 45
Location : Morkchester, UK

Personal Info
Primary Warband played: Orcs & Goblins Orcs & Goblins
Achievements earned: None

PostSubject: Re: Orc spell: Led'z Go   Thu 9 Sep 2010 - 3:03

@Speckie: Laughing Laughing Laughing This topic ROCKS!


Back to top Go down
View user profile http://www.flameon.co.uk
Dahag
Warlord
Warlord


Posts : 222
Trading Reputation : 0
Join date : 2010-05-21

Personal Info
Primary Warband played: Orcs & Goblins Orcs & Goblins
Achievements earned: none

PostSubject: Re: Orc spell: Led'z Go   Thu 9 Sep 2010 - 7:58

well, if this discussion is much about the original intent of the author, why not just ask him? He might be a busy man, but if he finds the time to answer we will know for sure Smile

does someone of you guys know how to contact marc havener? I could write him, unless someone of you is most eager to do it

ANY one? (do i now mean ALL of you or only ONE of you? lol! )
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Speckie
Captain
Captain


Posts : 74
Trading Reputation : 0
Join date : 2010-09-05

PostSubject: Re: Orc spell: Led'z Go   Thu 9 Sep 2010 - 10:13

WarbossKurgan wrote:
@Speckie: Laughing Laughing Laughing This topic ROCKS!



Only cause I'm in it right?!?

And dude... please don't write to the author... he's probably too busy watching porn or something... If I were a Gamesworkshop guru, I'd be doing that!
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Opheliate
Venerable Ancient
Venerable Ancient


Posts : 855
Trading Reputation : 0
Join date : 2009-11-12
Age : 31
Location : Sweden

Personal Info
Primary Warband played: Skaven Skaven
Achievements earned: none

PostSubject: Re: Orc spell: Led'z Go   Thu 9 Sep 2010 - 10:34

Positioning ratogres and elf maidens in disturbing positions... mm... how lovely grotesque of you Twisted Evil

Anyway, Im guessing the topic is... solved, yes?
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://sites.google.com/site/denofdamnation/
Speckie
Captain
Captain


Posts : 74
Trading Reputation : 0
Join date : 2010-09-05

PostSubject: Re: Orc spell: Led'z Go   Thu 9 Sep 2010 - 10:57

yes... Like a boss.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
mweaver
Etheral
Etheral


Posts : 1411
Trading Reputation : 0
Join date : 2010-01-13
Location : South Texas, U.S.A.

PostSubject: Re: Orc spell: Led'z Go   Thu 9 Sep 2010 - 17:20

Well, to the extent we all have an opinion (some of us a regrettably misguided one, but what can you expect from orc grammarians, anyway?) , the topic is solved.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Dahag
Warlord
Warlord


Posts : 222
Trading Reputation : 0
Join date : 2010-05-21

Personal Info
Primary Warband played: Orcs & Goblins Orcs & Goblins
Achievements earned: none

PostSubject: Re: Orc spell: Led'z Go   Fri 10 Sep 2010 - 0:58

well, almost I'd say.

if we assume that Led'z Go affects only one orc or goblin and the shaman can be the one, too:

you mentioned that you can switch the target every turn. where do you get this from as I can't find any indication for it in the rules. does not mean that it would not sound reasonable to me, though Smile

and please lets leave the path of dadaism again, ok? Smile (although what is to be expected if so many orcs are involved, haha)
Back to top Go down
View user profile
mweaver
Etheral
Etheral


Posts : 1411
Trading Reputation : 0
Join date : 2010-01-13
Location : South Texas, U.S.A.

PostSubject: Re: Orc spell: Led'z Go   Fri 10 Sep 2010 - 5:44

Well, the wording of the spell allows it. It does not target the one orc or goblin and stay with him wherever he moves, like some buff spells.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Dahag
Warlord
Warlord


Posts : 222
Trading Reputation : 0
Join date : 2010-05-21

Personal Info
Primary Warband played: Orcs & Goblins Orcs & Goblins
Achievements earned: none

PostSubject: Re: Orc spell: Led'z Go   Mon 13 Sep 2010 - 1:43

thanks for the explanation. I guess this manner how the spell works also creates this vagueness of who is affected. If one were to CHOOSE one model he'd (hopefully) had written so and it would be much clearer... anyway...

but again: Isn't Difficulty 9 too high only to grant one model striking first?
Back to top Go down
View user profile
mweaver
Etheral
Etheral


Posts : 1411
Trading Reputation : 0
Join date : 2010-01-13
Location : South Texas, U.S.A.

PostSubject: Re: Orc spell: Led'z Go   Mon 13 Sep 2010 - 5:28

It is an ongoing spell, not a one-off, which means (a) the shaman can start trying to cast it on turn 1, long before the orcs are in hand-to-hand with anyone, (b) once it is up, the shaman is free to cast other spells, and (c) he can shift who is affected from turn to turn, unlike most buff spells.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Dahag
Warlord
Warlord


Posts : 222
Trading Reputation : 0
Join date : 2010-05-21

Personal Info
Primary Warband played: Orcs & Goblins Orcs & Goblins
Achievements earned: none

PostSubject: Re: Orc spell: Led'z Go   Mon 13 Sep 2010 - 5:56

that is right, but all these characteristics apply to Clubba also but this spell is cast at "only" Difficulty 7.

Moreover, Led'z go was indirectly nerfed by the 2005 Errata as models with strike first and chargers determine attack order by initiative.

Of course this was useful to resolve all strikefirst and strikefirst-even-before matters Smile but it affected this spell in a negative way.

So the spell does not protect the model when it needs it most - when being charged.

I do not want to question this as I second its reasons. But combined with the - lets say- fact that it applies only ONE model only, this downside of the spell becomes much more important.

If the affected model gets charged- still strikes after and gets knocked down, it cannot benefit from the spell.
If the model survives and is standing up it strikes last, so again no benefit.

-although: Does the spell's strike first override the strike last from standing up....?

anyway... compared to the Clubba spell, Led'z go seems to be less effective at a higher difficulty.

Fortunately the Shaman can cast them BOTH Smile but still...



Back to top Go down
View user profile
WarbossKurgan
Distinguished Poster
Distinguished Poster


Posts : 2867
Trading Reputation : 0
Join date : 2007-10-04
Age : 45
Location : Morkchester, UK

Personal Info
Primary Warband played: Orcs & Goblins Orcs & Goblins
Achievements earned: None

PostSubject: Re: Orc spell: Led'z Go   Mon 13 Sep 2010 - 6:42

Shocked We're still here?

I'll just add another thought...

If I said "Any Orc or Goblin within 4" of the Orc Shaman could smell him!" would you think only one of them could smell the stinky old bugger? I'd say all of them could smell him!!


Difficulty 9 seems fine to me, if every friendly Orc or Goblin within 4" is effected...
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://www.flameon.co.uk
Speckie
Captain
Captain


Posts : 74
Trading Reputation : 0
Join date : 2010-09-05

PostSubject: Re: Orc spell: Led'z Go   Mon 13 Sep 2010 - 7:16

f**k it I'm God-modding.

Perma-death on all of you.

Done.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Dahag
Warlord
Warlord


Posts : 222
Trading Reputation : 0
Join date : 2010-05-21

Personal Info
Primary Warband played: Orcs & Goblins Orcs & Goblins
Achievements earned: none

PostSubject: Re: Orc spell: Led'z Go   Mon 13 Sep 2010 - 7:54

activating Shield of Reflection Smile

@Warboss Kurgan: that's what I meant. Difficulty 9 is ok for me if its affecting all within 4", but too high if its only one model...

anyway, the orc spell list is great, so it does not matter too much...

so thanks for all the discussion guys Smile


Back to top Go down
View user profile
Jadex
Veteran
Veteran


Posts : 107
Trading Reputation : 0
Join date : 2009-08-03
Location : Belgium

Personal Info
Primary Warband played: Lizardmen (Unofficial) Lizardmen (Unofficial)
Achievements earned: none

PostSubject: Re: Orc spell: Led'z Go   Mon 13 Sep 2010 - 9:17

... Shocked
Back to top Go down
View user profile
mweaver
Etheral
Etheral


Posts : 1411
Trading Reputation : 0
Join date : 2010-01-13
Location : South Texas, U.S.A.

PostSubject: Re: Orc spell: Led'z Go   Mon 13 Sep 2010 - 14:38

Clubba is an awesome spell for its cost, no kidding.

The spell was created before that rules review. When they nerfed strike first, they did not go back and change the cost of strike firsty things. Spears are still 10 g.c., for example, even though they were considerably less useful after that rules revision.

My personal opinion is that Ledz go at 9 is a little high for what it does (one model), but would be too low if it allowed everyone in range to strike first. Orcs, T4, are not that easy to put down, but given the initiative 2 of Orc henchmen, pretty much everyone except zombies goes before them in subsequent rounds of combat. This spell lets an Initiative 2 orc strike before an elf, dark elf, skaven, etc.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Figgy
Elder
Elder


Posts : 365
Trading Reputation : 0
Join date : 2009-05-04
Age : 28

Personal Info
Primary Warband played: Orcs & Goblins Orcs & Goblins
Achievements earned: none

PostSubject: Re: Orc spell: Led'z Go   Tue 14 Sep 2010 - 15:07

Here is my two cents.

Listing my opinions in numerical order. Supporting the case that can effect more than one model.

1) I don't think it'd be too low a cost to affect every orc and goblin within range. Keep in mind that orcs and goblins are plentiful and you have to be really close to that shaman to get the effect.

2) The flavor text really makes the authors point clear.

3) These are orcs! One person shouts "LED'Z GO!" All the orcs get pumped! I just couldn't see one orc more vigorous than all the others (unless it's a Nutta or somthin')

In Mordheim, sometimes you just have to do what makes sense - it's obvious that the rules are, for lack of better words, pretty much crap!

Back to top Go down
View user profile
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: Orc spell: Led'z Go   Today at 9:34

Back to top Go down
 
Orc spell: Led'z Go
View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 2 of 2Go to page : Previous  1, 2
 Similar topics
-
» Trap Reactor Y FI and Spell Reactor RE
» equip spell/warrior combo
» Starting spell for Orc Warband
» Hammer of Sigmar Spell
» H: Storm of Magic Spell Cards...W: What do you have?

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
Tom's Boring Mordheim Forum :: General Discussion :: Rules and Gameplay-
Jump to: