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 Siren's Silence

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superscenic
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PostSubject: Re: Siren's Silence   Mon 9 Aug 2010 - 7:25

@ Sultan: I've been checking your links and that is quite a pile of resources right there. I can see you know your model boats and model boat builders. The plans were very interesting, especially the ones that allow for easy cutout templates. Those very big galleon types make me very happy . This is indeed an entire modeling culture on its own. Please don't be too hard on Stormgerkin in terms of accuracy, we want him to have fun and not to be too stressed about it.

Some questions: What are "clinker design" and "spiking planks" does this mean nailing the planks to a frame from outside? As opposed to "caravel design", what does this refer to?

@Stormgerkin. Great vessel there. Definitely "Yarr" worthy. Good luck on rebuilding an engine, I am really keen to see a little update. There is something very satisfying about vessels made from real wood strips and I hear the grain comes alive with painting.

Thank you
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PostSubject: Re: Siren's Silence   Mon 9 Aug 2010 - 20:00

Sultan wrote:
Greatings

Love how You constructed boats. Very simple design yet efective.
So I have some questions. Why did You decide to build a clinker design of
a hull planks? You see from 15th. century every ship was carvel built.
So constructively spiking planks of Your ships are "out of date".

The ship design was newver going to be spot on as a replica, because it has to be sturdy and modified for minature use also the modular design makes it fairly compicated. In addtion it was not a build of any paritular vessal. Thuis makineing me not to worried about historical accuracy... At least on this one perhaps the next.

However i am intverested to know morw about the differance between clinker and carvel design and also waht you mean by spiking planks...
As for your question why i went with this particular hull design was simple is was an easy way to build the curves of the ship in a way that gave it a pretty strong structure.

I'm have learned alot about the ships of the era since i have started this wip and am finding it fascinating as I'm egger to learn more.
The resources you have posted are great for inspiration and information on techniques.


Last edited by Stormgerkin on Mon 9 Aug 2010 - 21:01; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Siren's Silence   Mon 9 Aug 2010 - 20:22

Thank to all for the coments and constuctive criticism it help for ideas to continue the build.
And to all those that have currently ships in progess and those thinking of it I look forward to seeing your builds.

As for progress i have found a little time in my sleave to continue.

I have drilled holes for the masts on all the levels, with the deck i have added an addintional piece pf 5mm balsa wood across the grain under the deck to help with strengh.



I have also cut all the door ways and hatch hole required at the moment and added some cross members.... still think i need more.



Also made a start in the wheel and the hoist(can never remember what its called) i need to add some nobs on the wheel as its a cart wheel from an empire cannon and need to figure out a steering rig design to ad to it.


I need to think of a rudder shape and design so imput would be good.
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PostSubject: Re: Siren's Silence   Tue 10 Aug 2010 - 10:54

awesome!!
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PostSubject: Re: Siren's Silence   Tue 10 Aug 2010 - 10:58

She's living up to her potential...FINE PROGRESS!
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PostSubject: Re: Siren's Silence   Wed 11 Aug 2010 - 3:45

This is shaping up VERY nicely!

Wiki pages on Carvel and Clinker boat building pirat
Quote :

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PostSubject: Re: Siren's Silence   Wed 11 Aug 2010 - 5:58

Hi everybody

I have some answers to various questions.

For Superscenic: Nord people and Arabs constructed their ships on rather strange fashion. They first
assembled planks of the hull into one solid piece and only after added framework,keel etc.In order to do so
they needed to utilize a clinker or overlapping design of joining and nailing planks. But Arabs had they
own method for fastening planks. They used rope made from coconut lashes and lashed planks to
each other through holes on bored onto planks and when finished they added framework keel beams
for decking etc. So Arabs used some strange mix of clinker and carvel design.
Carvel design means that the planks are butted up against each other with no connection what so ever
among them selves. That also mean that the ribs and frames of the hull are first to be assembled and
then after planks are added to the hull and nailed to their final position.
WarbossKurgan found excellent picture explaining the difference between this two approach.

For Stormgerkin: I am deeply truly sorry for my misbehavior. It is unforgivable to sent very harsh words
to someone who built such wonderful craft as You did. So to minimize damagethat I maybe I did to You,
I have some additional infos. First I did some research and it seems that some ships used in they construction
both techniques carvel and clinker namely clinker for lower part of the hull as You did and carvel
for upper part of the hull. It have some logic because clinker built hulls are stronger than carvel simply
because even the planks are nailed to each other.
So far You created a beautiful buccaneer pirate ship with all superlatives in design,looks like Spanish
galleon with all essential equipment on the right places.
Answer to some question. Hoist or winch have name CAPSTAN. Capstan was used for manualy lifting
heavy equipment like provisions for lengthy voyages,guns,anchors, munition, etc. Add some thin stripes
of balsa 1x1mm x 10mm I think round the capstan for that was used to assist people to have better stand
position when they push onto capstan leavers.
Here are some link: http://capstanwinch.net/
Ah rudder. Just shape it from one piece of balsa or plywood and add ontop the tiller. Tiller was used
in old ships. If You want use a Wheeled rudder as You started You need to incorporate some pulleys
and rope to make some geared mechanism with will be attached to the wheel.So attach centre of the
rope to the tiller with will seats one deck below wheel.Then drill two small holes in other side of upper
deck and slip both ends of rope to the upper deck.Then attach one pulley to the starboard and one pulley
to the port side of the hull in line to the wheel. Than just attach somehow ropes to the wheel.
Some picture of the rudder. The hinges are difficult to manufacture but You can find some copper or
brass stripes for them or simply by the smallest hinges You can find.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/23/Pintle_and_gudgeon_rudder_system_scheme.svg

Sorry for a huuuuuggggeee letter but I had an idea to post some answers for questions ,not to
make anger in somebody.

All in all I think when a pirate ship will be finished it will be so beautiful that we will envy You because
You have it and we don´t .

Salute

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PostSubject: Re: Siren's Silence   Wed 11 Aug 2010 - 8:16

Also

The intrigue is here.
Now I must build some ship because the ship is unique battleground ,have masts and platforms on it,
3 or 4 decks various in position and shape, also in dimension.
Have You thought how to construct some guns and where will they be posted onto Your ship?
Can You make some guns from leftovers of the empire cannon? To use barrel of the empire gun but
to put it to a new carriage?
Here some links for carriages:
http://www.cannonsuperstore.com/carriages.htm
http://shipmodeling.net/vb_forum/articles66.html
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/CONSTRUCTO-GUN-CARRIAGE-SIDES-WOOD-BLOCKS-LARGE-SMALL_W0QQitemZ260561886252QQihZ016QQcategoryZ2594QQcmdZViewItem
http://www.shipmodeling.ca/aa10077.html

It is not so hard as it seems to be.
I also seen somewhere that some guy built a mold for molding cannons from led.Use plaster it is
readily accessible and chip.
I can hardly wait to see how Your guns will look like.Personally my opinion is that if you chrach
build something it is always recommended to do so for every piece of equipment.
For example Your capstan (or hoist,winch) is perfectly built and it is great piece on-board because
it will have a tremendous use in game,You can even throw a burned amphora onto enemy ship,or
move with it Your army all at once onto enemy's ships deck and quickly turn that ship into Your hands
and clime victory.

Salute



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PostSubject: Re: Siren's Silence   Thu 12 Aug 2010 - 3:13

Sultan: No harm no faul. your knowledge of sail ships is impressive and quite useful.

Go figure i made a clinker invertedly...ha
That is a neat diagram Warboss.

Any way i have finished most of the railings, finished and the capstan, added knods to the steering wheel.
Also started on the cannons building my own has proved to bve painful yet rewarding, cut some of the gun ports aswell.
Sorry no pics yet will try to get some up tonight or tomorrow.
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PostSubject: Re: Siren's Silence   Fri 13 Aug 2010 - 1:17

Stormgerkin my man

That´s I´m talking about. Sometimes when I am bored,outside is raining and I have free time to
do what ever I want,I usually imagine how to make something useful for my models but not to
spend even a penny. I had some spent cartridges of Kalashnikov
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:7.62x39_-_FMJ_-_1.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/94/SKS_Clip_charge.JPG
,and I figured out that I can make some barrels for MLR-s (muzzle loading rifles) and I think that
I constructed very good carronades. Carronade is short weapon intended to shoot enemy
vessel on short range with heavy round and to inflict a great damage to the hull or rigging.
It usually seats on upper deck of the ship and have a different type of carriage.Here some pic:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5a/Carronade-tag.svg
I used yellow or bronze cartridge because it is prettier.

Can´t wait any longer , must see Your ship. Will You make sails from textile? You can incorporate
some wire into the binding (stich) so You can alter form or configuration of the sails.

If You need some info that I can help with,You are free to ask so I can help.

KEEP UP GOOD JOB, it will be mighty one hell of the fear of the all seas ship.

Salute

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PostSubject: Re: Siren's Silence   Fri 13 Aug 2010 - 2:01

Sultan: I was just going to go with hoisted sails out of some raggs i have lieing about all wrapped up for ease of playing over the ship but know you have me interested to see what you mean by the sail and wire idea.
as for progress
a shot of the ship of late havent cut all the gun ports yet ive been cutting them as i go, the railings where made useing thin plasticard tube then pushing a pin through it to attach the top rail to the side wall sandwitching the tube.


I then added to the capstan built a top to it to look as though the levers slide in to it it isnt attached to the ship yet because im waiting until i do the grates.


I carlved the bow abit just to add some detail


Did some more on the steering wheel the knobs are made from the tops of tooth picks and then pinned in place.


Now on to the cannons their made from lenghts of pipe both aluminium and brass that fit in side easy other. I used a pipe cutter to cut the all some need a bit of filing to get the to fit was tight .
the back of the cannon is made from woodern beads with a hole drilled in the back to take a large headed pin.
the cartrages are just balsa wood stacked on top of each other a few mm thick, wheels are 6mm dowel and the rest is just a few pins and plasticard tube fore detail.

ive completed 6 out of a estemated 28.
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PostSubject: Re: Siren's Silence   Fri 13 Aug 2010 - 5:28

The added details...capstan, carvings, & cannons...look TERRIFIC! She's high enough that you could add gun ports below the existing cannons to suggest a second row of guns.
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PostSubject: Re: Siren's Silence   Fri 13 Aug 2010 - 5:45

I can do better then that i plan on building the iner hull in to a gunnery deck lined with yet more guns.
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PostSubject: Re: Siren's Silence   Fri 13 Aug 2010 - 5:53

Stormgerkin wrote:
I can do better then that i plan on building the iner hull in to a gunnery deck lined with yet more guns.

Now that brings the Beasty to an entirely new level. This thread is becoming a MUST FOLLOW item.
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PostSubject: Re: Siren's Silence   Fri 13 Aug 2010 - 13:05

Stormgerkin

The guns are TREMENDOUS success because they are looking even better than fabricated on some
CNC mashine. I love bows too, specially because they are carved to very fine detail.
With 28 guns You will have a frigate class of ship,the flagship of Your pirate squadron.
Only a Black Pear could try to even catch her , if the wind gauge is favorable,all canvas set and
spread to max speed dead ahead, in theory....

A gunnery deck,now I am hardly wait to see that.

Salute
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PostSubject: Re: Siren's Silence   Fri 13 Aug 2010 - 14:55

That is coming along quite nicely!!

I dusted off my ship last night, but after looking at this thread, I think I will scrap it and start over.

Nice job!!
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PostSubject: Re: Siren's Silence   Sat 14 Aug 2010 - 5:31

I can hear the cannons roar already.
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PostSubject: Re: Siren's Silence   Sat 14 Aug 2010 - 12:57

Look at that yesterday I was Newblood and now I am already Warrior.Hmmm.....
Now for the bows would You consider something similar to this:
http://www.boatmodelling.com/images/zoom/Wodnik/viewsize/DSC09008.jpg
http://www.boatmodelling.com/images/zoom/Wodnik/viewsize/DSC08808.jpg
You must have it.
That was actually toilet on-board the sailing ships Embarassed,but in this occasion it will be nice detail to this
all ready mighty beasty juggernaut of the see.
What about gratings? Did You consider to construct some of these to allow ease access to the
hold (or to gunnery deck) of Your ship.Of course that will represent ventilation for Your gunners.
Also I think it would be nice detail.

I should be ashamed to ask all of that from You buuuut....I just want for this ship that
everybody's lower jaw would drop off when they see her,in all her glory..

Salute
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PostSubject: Re: Siren's Silence   Sat 14 Aug 2010 - 17:19

Horned Rat : I'm glad to heard that this thread has inspired you to continue with your ship.

Sultan : I am looking at building some gratting i was just going to do it for the main deck... But after seeing the bow desighn it doesnt look that hard to do it there either plus it will add more room for models to move.
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PostSubject: Re: Siren's Silence   Sat 14 Aug 2010 - 17:44

Stormgerkin my man

Exactly .You do not have to construct so sophisticated part of bow,,just something similar and as You mentioned You will have some additional room for Your hord of Buccaneers .And a very nice bow effect.

Salute
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PostSubject: Re: Siren's Silence   Sat 14 Aug 2010 - 21:25

Excellent work all around matey. The guns are very impressive. They put many company's offerings to shame. I prefer to convert plastic toy ships, but I salute you!

Sultan@thanks again for all of the links!
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PostSubject: Re: Siren's Silence   Sat 14 Aug 2010 - 22:36

Friends

Thanks for credit.I found this sites :
http://www.boatmodelling.com
http://modelshipworld.com (http://modelshipworld.com/phpBB2/portal.php)
So these two sites was my inspiration although I admit that I am not such precision builder
after all. I tried to make something II.....Dno similar,BUT of course that turns to bee all rubbish.
These models certainly did not fabricated to became a part of some game.It amplifies all
success with Siren´s Silence that Stormgerkin received if I may say in that shape,because
although Stormgerkin never tried to make museum quality model,the model from day to day
grows better and better.

Personally I would fill great sorrow if something breaks off or suffer some damage due to the
game. Good forbidden.

I can not imagine how ˝fear of the seas˝ will look like when finished , painted,and refitted with
all canvas and rigging. Plus, mighty good,28 GUNS....

Flying Dutchman will look like a some childish toy...

Salute


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PostSubject: Re: Siren's Silence   Thu 16 Sep 2010 - 1:56

I have some progress to report but unfortunetly no pics as my gal's camera has given up the ghost.
I have completed all of the railing inbetween the decks, I am currently finnishing off cannons number 19 through to 24 (I am over making them). I have build a warning bell and its frame (not sure what it is called) and i have completed the main deck grating.

I will try to get some pics up as soon as possable but with my coin disapering on the engine I;m not sure when this will be.
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PostSubject: Re: Siren's Silence   Thu 16 Sep 2010 - 23:14

I would love to see some WIP shots of your cannons so I can copy them for my own ship! Razz

The look pretty dang good.
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PostSubject: Re: Siren's Silence   Mon 4 Oct 2010 - 17:40

Ok still dont have aworking camera yet but have some helpful instructions on how to build my cannons if any one is interested.

first you'll need the tube sizes, they are 9/32, 1/4, 7/32. i used a small pipe cutter to cut then though this was just for speed as a small saw would do the trick.
as for the piece's of pipe cut i cut 2x2mmx9/32, 1x15mmx9/32, 1x8mmx1/4, 1x2mmx1/4, 1x5mmx1/4, 1x25mmx7/32... keep in mind that all of these lenghts are a rough size as i didnt painfully measure them all before cutting just when with the flow.

i then flied them so they fit together easly some times thats a calibrated tap to get them together, any lose fits were super glued
fig 1

i then cut a 8mm woodern bead just off centre to miss the hole in it and glued it to the back of the barrel. drilled a small hole in it for the knobat the end and a second just infront of the rear chamber for the pivet point.
fig 2

then i glued a ball headed pin through the woodern bead, put a wire pin through the barrel then glued short lenghts of plasticard tube to them and finished them with a rivet cut from small plasticard rod.
fig 3



The cartrages are made from 2mm balsa wood mainly with a piece of 5mm and some 6mm dowel

you'll need to cut a single peice of 5mm basla arcross itselfso it 3mmx5mmx25mm still just guessing on the measurement should be pretty accurate though

you also need to cut the dowel in to 4x3mm

on to the 2mm you'll need 4x2mmx25mmx3mm, 2x2mmx20mmx3mm, 2x2mmx15mmx3mm, 2x2mmx10mmx3mm
you then glue the 2mm pieces on top of each other and put pins through it. once the glue has set crop the pins to size
fig 1

once this is done join them together with the piece of 5mm wide the was cut the pin it at the front and back on both sides.
fig 2

useing a small round file make a grove in between the top 4 pins on the cartrage walls.
fig 3

then glue on the pieces of dowel and finish the wheels with small platicard tube with a rod rivet again.
fig 4

to get the cannon to fit well you have to carve the inside of the cartrage walls to suit to hard i just used a modeling knife, then glue the cannon on.
fig 5

a word of warning though the cannon barrel assembly can be very bloody frustrating.

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