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 Rabbit's Foot from Ye Olde Curiousity Shoppe (Annual)

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PostSubject: Re: Rabbit's Foot from Ye Olde Curiousity Shoppe (Annual)   Thu 1 May 2008 - 1:56

cianty wrote:
Yes, you can only buy the items listed in your respective equipment table. After the first game you may send your heores off to search for rare and miscellaneous items. (This rule prevents that all warbands start right away with 6 Lucky Charms, 6 Rabbit's Feet, 1 (Un)Holy Relic, etc. - these cheap but highly effective items need to be searched for by Heroes and thus your warband will only get hold of them after several battles.)

Does anybody actually play with Rabbits Feet???

"Rabbit's Foot 10gc, rare 5
allows one re-roll during the battle, or if not used, one re-roll during exploration if the warrior did not go out of action"


- Are they not rediculous overpowered ? (Wyrdstone hunter skill, why bother?)
Would help a bit if atleast they were a onetime use item...but they are not AFAIK.
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PostSubject: Re: Rabbit's Foot from Ye Olde Curiousity Shoppe (Annual)   Thu 1 May 2008 - 2:19

Of course we use them. We are no friends of cutting down of official rules. It's not like the feet would break the game. Every hero tries to get one as soon as possible so no one is really at an advantage. Recently all re-rolls we got from the feet were useless anyways. Mordheim is ~70% luck. Every turn a lowely crossbowman can make the difference by shooting down the best enemy model.. or not doing so. It's all about random rolls and one re-roll is not that big a deal if you think about it. Still the feet are ridiculously cheap, of course (which is probably because they are meant to be priced realistically instead of cost-effect-apropriate).

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PostSubject: Re: Rabbit's Foot from Ye Olde Curiousity Shoppe (Annual)   Thu 1 May 2008 - 2:30

cianty wrote:
Of course we use them. We are no friends of cutting down of official rules. It's not like the feet would break the game. Every hero tries to get one as soon as possible so no one is really at an advantage. Recently all re-rolls we got from the feet were useless anyways. Mordheim is ~70% luck. Every turn a lowely crossbowman can make the difference by shooting down the best enemy model.. or not doing so. It's all about random rolls and one re-roll is not that big a deal if you think about it. Still the feet are ridiculously cheap, of course (which is probably because they are meant to be priced realistically instead of cost-effect-apropriate).

Are u sure they are official ?? Im relatively new to the game, but arent Rabbit Feet from an annual pre-the rules review? why then werent they incorporated into the rules like a lot of other items?? ie. like the rule change to Lucky Charms?
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PostSubject: Re: Rabbit's Foot from Ye Olde Curiousity Shoppe (Annual)   Thu 1 May 2008 - 3:54

I think they are official since they were in the Annual. The rules review only ever dealt with Warbands from the Annual (ie, Shadow Warriors) and stuff. The Hired Swords in there are also official as well as Nicodemus. I can't see why Opulent Goods (written by Tuomas himself and one of the first additional Mordheim articles from White Dwarf/early Town Cryer) shouldn't be official. And Ye Olde Curiosity Shoppe is treated the same as Opulent Good (since both were not mentioned).

The Rules Review explicitly stated which warbands, hired swords and dramatis persone are official. Leaving out other things does not make them unofficial automatically and since they were released in the Annual under New Rules, "official" is the default status I'd assign here.

But, well, who cares. Official/unofficial/experimental isn't really worth much these days anyways. Use what you think makes you happy.

EDIT: Lucky charms are not explitly listed as official items (which is pretty needless since they are in the rulebook). Lucky charms are listed because their rules were changed. This has nothing to do with official/unofficial.

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PostSubject: Re: Rabbit's Foot from Ye Olde Curiousity Shoppe (Annual)   Thu 1 May 2008 - 10:02

I can't find Ye Olde Curiosity Shoppe on the Specialist Games Download page... I know it includes rabbit's feet and rapiers, but without it I am missing out!

I like the reworked list much better; I think you will be much more pleased with your cash flow. But like said, you can't have the ropes to start with. Also about the spears, I’m afraid he is right; I even made it a point to reference this rule in a other topic but forgot about it momentarily. That ruling really cuts their effectiveness, especially against Shadow Warriors and Skaven!. When combined with the new unwieldy rule for spears, I think they should be reduced to 5gc they have been nerfed to bad! Plus I just bought 2 spear armed brethren for my warband... Sort of a mixed bag since I’ll be fighting Skaven and Undead tonight…
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PostSubject: Re: Rabbit's Foot from Ye Olde Curiousity Shoppe (Annual)   Thu 1 May 2008 - 10:08

Curiosity Shoppe is not available from Specialist Games. In fact, it's the only article from the Annual that's not available. You can find all the items on Mordheimer.com, though.

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PostSubject: Re: Rabbit's Foot from Ye Olde Curiousity Shoppe (Annual)   Fri 2 May 2008 - 0:51

cianty wrote:
Curiosity Shoppe is not available from Specialist Games. In fact, it's the only article from the Annual that's not available. You can find all the items on Mordheimer.com, though.

Perhaps that could be taken as a hint that it is NOT to be considered official Wink

(also seriously try to compare the rabbit foot with the rule for wyrdstone pendulum or Tarot Cards ....Rabbit foot is totally unbalanced, now if it ONLY allowed a reroll in battle and not in the exploration phase ...or if it were a onetime item I would not have this problem with it ...but but but ...)
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PostSubject: Re: Rabbit's Foot from Ye Olde Curiousity Shoppe (Annual)   Fri 2 May 2008 - 1:18

Boehm wrote:
Perhaps that could be taken as a hint that it is NOT to be considered official Wink

I'm not going by hints. But it's good to see that you still believe that GW wants the best for the gamers. Did you know that the Ostlander warband rules available from the Specialist Games site are those of the original version from Town Cryer 11 instead of the official version from the Mordheim Annual? This is important because the list was revised (Nouveau Riche got kicked). So much for uploading everything official.

There is no indication that the status of Opulent Goods and Ye Olde Curiousity Shoppe differ in any way. Also there is no indication that Opulent Goods is not official. I can ask some people from the Mordheim Rules Review about this if it worries you so much.

(The Rabbit's foot is definately too cheap for what it does but I'm not sure if "unbalanced" is the right word. Undercosted, yes. Since all warbands have access to it I think it does keep the balance. So for a little price (which reflects the commonness of the item) the feet allow for even more heroic situations in your games - because they are often used as a last-ditch-effort to pass a Step Aside test, an armour save or a much needed wounded roll in critical situations. Rabbit's feet sure are a must-have item but they don't spoil our games so - to me - there is nothing wrong with them. In the LOTR system and the derived Legends of the High Seas system a certain amount of re-rolls for a Hero per game are a common thing.)

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PostSubject: Re: Rabbit's Foot from Ye Olde Curiousity Shoppe (Annual)   Fri 2 May 2008 - 3:46

I beg to differ ...I think they do spoil the game ... - in the sense that its such a grossly overpowered item that EVERYBODY MUST BUY IT ...ofcause in this sense u can argue that its fair since everybody just gets it ..but the problem is that its soo much better than other items/skills that it makes these if not totally useless than atleast almost redundant.

For the record for a 3rd time - I have no problem with reroll in battle - I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH IT ALLOWING REROLLS IN THE EXPLORATION PHASE!!!

Compare the ability of the Rabbit Foot which cost 10gc with ...

Wyrdstone Pendulum 25+3D6 gc Rare 9
Pendulums made of wyrdstone can reputedly be used to find
even more of the magical stone.
Special Rules: If he was not taken out, the Hero using the
wyrdstone pendulum may make a Leadership test after the
battle. If he is successful, you may re-roll any one dice in the
Exploration phase.


---- its a lot more expensive AND requires a LD test to be passed AND doesnt have altertive uses ...ie. the rabbits foot could be used to reroll a die in combat instead.

also try to compare it to the skill of Wyrdstone Hunter ...who will EVER take "wyrdstone hunter" when they can just buy a rabbits foot instead!??!?

Besides speaking of which rules are official ... since Opulent Goods are not published under the Rule section but under the Article section I would argue that it is NOT official ....AFAIK the article section is just optional fancreated stuff, not to be considered official ...
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PostSubject: Re: Rabbit's Foot from Ye Olde Curiousity Shoppe (Annual)   Fri 2 May 2008 - 4:33

@article section: You seriously need to stop believing Specialist Games cares. The rules section is certainly meant to be official but why do they have the Shadow Warriors (Sons of Nagarythe) in there? They were explicitly downgraded from official to unfficial. Now let's have a look at the article section. This one includes many official articles as well: Show me the Money (Assassin, Marksman HS), Many Bargains Much Ceapness (Merchant HS), Carnival of Chaos warband, Revenge is Eternal (Marianna Chevaux DP).

@Re-roll in exploration: If you believe that a re-roll during the exploration phase is way better than the possibility of re-rolling a Step Aside/Wound/Armour save/complexity test or whatever roll, then we have no basis to continue discussing what is unbalanced/unfair/overpowered and what not.

Thank Sigmar, there are house rules for such things so you can talk your gaming group into not allowing rabbit's feet. If you were coming to me with this suggestion I would put the chains of WYSIWYG on you, though! Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Rabbit's Foot from Ye Olde Curiousity Shoppe (Annual)   Fri 2 May 2008 - 5:01

perhaps a mod should move our little rabbit-foot discussion to a seperate thread?

anyway, ...no I dont necessarily believe that a reroll is way better that to be able to do a combat reroll at the right time and place ...however allowing the option of EITHER is definately way better than only being able to reroll in the exploration phase after making a LD test ...

and incidently I do think that a free choice reroll is totally overpowered for 10gc ...compared to say Lucky Charm which forces u to use the save at first opportunity - for rabbit foot to be comparable it should then be specified that it allowed u to reroll the first (and only first) missed dieroll ...
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PostSubject: Re: Rabbit's Foot from Ye Olde Curiousity Shoppe (Annual)   Fri 2 May 2008 - 5:24

Boehm wrote:
perhaps a mod should move our little rabbit-foot discussion to a seperate thread?

Done.

Boehm wrote:

anyway, ...no I dont necessarily believe that a reroll is way better that to be able to do a combat reroll at the right time and place

Great.

Boehm wrote:

...however allowing the option of EITHER is definately way better than only being able to reroll in the exploration phase after making a LD test ...

No one doubts that. It sure is better.

Boehm wrote:

and incidently I do think that a free choice reroll is totally overpowered for 10gc ...compared to say Lucky Charm which forces u to use the save at first opportunity - for rabbit foot to be comparable it should then be specified that it allowed u to reroll the first (and only first) missed dieroll ...

Well, "overpowered" is such a strong word. I know what you mean and I do agree. It's just that me, personally, I don't like to disallow anything (un-)official if it does not unbalance the game. Rabbit's Feet don't unbalance the game, that's what me and my gaming group think. If you and your folks disagree, then forbid it. Easy as that.

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PostSubject: Re: Rabbit's Foot from Ye Olde Curiousity Shoppe (Annual)   Fri 2 May 2008 - 5:58

cianty wrote:

Well, "overpowered" is such a strong word. I know what you mean and I do agree. It's just that me, personally, I don't like to disallow anything (un-)official if it does not unbalance the game. Rabbit's Feet don't unbalance the game, that's what me and my gaming group think. If you and your folks disagree, then forbid it. Easy as that.

Its just that I like diversity of choice ...and if something is a no-brainer then IMO it detracts from the game ...so appliying the same reasoning as that underlying the suggested AS+1 from shield/hw combo, namely that duelweapon should not be a no brainer and that shield should be a viable choice ...so I believe that Rabbit foot should be a viable choice but not a no-brainer ...any nobrainer basically detracts from the stratetic diversity of the game and thus IMO reduces the "fun" - I play Mordheim, because I enjoy the tactical strategical challanges as well as teh roleplaying element ...if the rules are dumbed down too much I might aswell play RISK giving the individual pieces names background stories .... alien
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PostSubject: Re: Rabbit's Foot from Ye Olde Curiousity Shoppe (Annual)   Fri 2 May 2008 - 6:35

I don't think it's right to compare the +1AS rule for shields with the "overpoweredness" of Rabbit's Feet.

The armour rule was introduced to Mordheim to stop people from automatically giving their models 2 hand-weapons instead of ever using shields for close combat. The rule does make both variants viable and it really depends on your strategy and the model for which one you opt.

A strong misc item such as Rabbit's Feet is not competing with any one item/skill. There is no situation where you have to choose whether you want to go the Rabbit's route or another one. You don't have to choose between a lucky charm or a rabbit's foot - take both! Feet, pendulums and the Wyrdstone Hunter skill are not mutual exclusive - take 'em all! The more re-rolls the better!

Your suggestion of forbidding (I guess that's what you want) contradicts your wish for "strategic diversity", at the very least it doesn't really support it. Here's why:
- Numerous no-brainer items (such as Lucky Charms and (un)holy relics for leaders) force you to choose which of them you want to buy first. A sample warband with 5 starting Heroes needs 100 gold crows to be fully equipped with charms and feet (make that 120 for 6 Heroes). Now do you really want to spend your first 100 gc on these items instead of hiring new warriors which highly benefit from joining the warband as soon as possible because of the Experience they gain per battle? The options of no-brainer misc items, better weapons, armour and warriors increases the strategic options a lot and by disallowing no-brainer items you in fact "dump down the game".
- So as you get hold of two or three feet after the first few battles (provided you don't buy charms or other stuff) you even need to think about which Heroes you give the feet to. In warbands with a mix of close combat heros and Heroes with ranged weapons this is a tough question. Do you want to improve the close combat specialists (with said Step Aside skill or great armour) or do you want to imrpove the marksman and make sure he can take out the fiercest enemy close combat specialist in ranged combat? These are strategic question which apply to "no-brainer" misc items just as well as to any better piece of equipment from weapons to armour (which hero do I give a better weapon/armour?).

Finally, being able to equip your Heroes with items like relics, lucky charms and rabbit's feet so that they are prepared for the fights in the dangerous streets of the damned city (or the wild empire or wherever you are set) is what amounts to the great dark atmosphere of the Mordheim game, which is what makes it the game it is. Decreasing the number of these little bits and bobs would IMO decrease the "fun".

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PostSubject: Re: Rabbit's Foot from Ye Olde Curiousity Shoppe (Annual)   Fri 2 May 2008 - 7:28

I dont necessarilly want to forbid rabbits feet ... - I would be perfectly happy with MODIFYING THEM (the more diverse choice the better)...but if forced to choose would prefer to have them banned rather than include "as they are" ...

Possible modifications:

a) one time use item ...
b) reroll one towound (would still be overpowered vis-a-vis Lucky Charm, since its better to reroll to-wound than get a 4+ save vs. a hit).
c) reroll not usable in explorationphase - so as not to mess with WyrdstoneHunter skill, Wyrdstone Pendulum etc.
d) ...exhaust on 4+ after each game (ie. limited lifespan)

e) any combination of above ...ie. c) & d) reroll only applicable to battle & roll to see if "luck" is exausted at end of each game. - my favorite Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Rabbit's Foot from Ye Olde Curiousity Shoppe (Annual)   Fri 2 May 2008 - 8:24

Wow, what a discussion guys Wink

Just my short comment on the rabbit foot:
I think it really is as cianty said a great item to make the game more interesting and heroic, because it's just so cool to see your last standing hero make a succesful diving charge on the last enemy trying to escape, and to decide the scenario by this action because you were able to re-roll the Initiative-test.

I think this is the "purpose" of this item in the game, the re-roll on the exploration chart is quite unfitting IMO.

So if you really dislike the item as it is, make a houserule that forbids the use of the re-roll in the exploration-phase. That's how I'd handle it.
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PostSubject: Re: Rabbit's Foot from Ye Olde Curiousity Shoppe (Annual)   Fri 2 May 2008 - 8:38

Erkwin wrote:
... it's just so cool to see your last standing hero make a succesful diving charge on the last enemy trying to escape, and to decide the scenario by this action because you were able to re-roll the Initiative-test.

A perfect example of what I meant. Thanks, Erkwin.

Erkwin wrote:
I think this is the "purpose" of this item in the game, the re-roll on the exploration chart is quite unfitting IMO.

So if you really dislike the item as it is, make a houserule that forbids the use of the re-roll in the exploration-phase. That's how I'd handle it.

Agree totally. I don't see a need to put the exploration bonus in this item, either. I can see the idea behind it, though: The lucky Hero stripping over a huge shard of wyrdstone - what a lucky bastard! However, this does overload the foot with too many uses. But since I don't like messing with things that are not broken I really wouldn't want to change it.

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PostSubject: Re: Rabbit's Foot from Ye Olde Curiousity Shoppe (Annual)   Sat 3 May 2008 - 6:38

Erkwin wrote:

So if you really dislike the item as it is, make a houserule that forbids the use of the re-roll in the exploration-phase. That's how I'd handle it.

ok me too ...I could be good with that Smile
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