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Gorgar67



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PostSubject: Official and Unofficial warbands   Fri 9 Jul 2010 - 4:15

I've read on many forums that some of the unofficial warbands are overpowered and some campaign oraganisers go so far as to ban them from their campaigns.

I'm about to start a new campaign at my club and there are a couple of players who want to try some unofficial warbands because they like the models or the fluff. (so they say)

I'm all for trying new things so I'm wanting to let them play them, but I don't want to upset or discourage other players because they think they will be unable to beat them.

So I'm asking the Mordheim community for the experience and knowledge regarding these warbands.

My questions are:

Are the unofficial warbands overpowered?

Which ones, and in what way and by how much?

Is there something simple to do to overcome this imbalance? For example if the only thing wrong with the Elves is that they are too shooty could you just increase their purchase costs and by how much?

Another thought I had was for the purposes of Underdogs only (page 81 of the rules) unofficial warbands will have 50 points added to their warband rating. Or maybe Lizardmen have 20 points and Elves have 40 points. That way the official warbands will more likely get the bonus for being the underdogs.

Your thoughts and experience would be appreciated.
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PostSubject: Re: Official and Unofficial warbands   Fri 9 Jul 2010 - 5:26

As Elves where the first example that came to my mind and you mentioned them anyway, I'll start with them. I'll use Dark Elves as I know them much better than the other Elves but generally they suffer from the same problems...

So: (I'll refer to the warband version of TC12 as it is the most common i guess):


Advantages:
*M5, high I, high BS (up to 7), high WS (up to 7) and high Ld (up to 10).

*Additionally: repeater crossbows, double I to negate hiding, poison!

*powerful magic (i.e. doombolt)

disadvantages:

*only light armour, but sea dragon cloaks

*"low toughness"

*"restricted access" to strength skills

* no access to blackpowder weapons


So, put in words:

1)They are well at close combat:

Dark Elf Blade is a very good weapon: Sword and club in one item plus improved critical hits!
They reach can reach a high weapon skill AND they almost always hit first due to high I.

In warhammer this is often not so much of a problem as hitting first is often mitigated by heavy armour of the opponent or high toughness.

But in mordheim, hitting first can be very powerful. A model can reach a lot of attacks and high S combined (poison, Spell "Flamesword") with combat skills, so it makes much of a difference.

plus: they can reach a lot of attacks together with crossbow pistols and

2) they are probably the best shooter race in mordheim:

true, only the high born has access to shooting skills. But on the one hand they don't really need them due to BS7 and and poison.

And: you can give shooting skills to LGT henchmen. So if you really like and have enough patience you can kick out the fellblades and beastmaster and replace them with LGT shooter heroes with access to shooting skills
.
The crossbow pistol and repeater crossbow are powerful ranged weapons. Before the rules review, the repeater crossbow could be combined with quickshot which opened discussions about thus getting 3 or even 4 shots per such equipped model!

3) Poison:
poison increases the last two points immensely. The fundamental problem is that "master of poison" can be given to every hero if you like. So if you're lucky you can get up to 12 doses of poison! (of course more than about 6 doses are not useful as they lose effect after one game, but still...)

Poison put on cc-weapon means in fact a "mighty blow"-skill in disguise Smile

poison put on repeater crossbows can 2 S4 shots or 2 S5 if applied on a crossbow.

4) good magic:

doombolt starts at S5 and with luck you can knock down a whole group of an enemy warband from a distance of 18" (or of course ooA some of them)

flame sword means in fact access to a doublehanded weapon with "strongman" included. Additionally the enflamed weapon keeps its features.



now to the disadvantages:

1) only light armour. true. but they can combine "fey quickness" with "step aside" and dodge, thus getting a 4+ ward for both cc and ranged with an investment of three skills.

and the sea dragon cloak -put upon a light armour- is even better (although also more expensive) than heavy armour. (granting a 5+ /4+)

2) low toughness:
they can reach T4 which is not really THAT low (equal with humans).

two heroes can get "powerful build" and thus effectively reach T5.

3) restricted access to strength skills:

usually dark elves can't choose from strength skills

but: "only" two heroes can get access to "powerful build". and thus they have access to mighty blow and strongman (among other skills) and resilient, as mentioned before.

usually, most warbands, which are strong in one or several departments, have an according amount of weaknesses:

beastmen are very good at cc, but have NO ranged weapons.

orcs are good at cc and quite good at ranged combat, but have animosity etc.

I guess the elves were thought to have strength as their weakness. but if you look at it a bit closer, high strength isn't really a problem for them:

theoretically (although difficult) you can get all heroes to S5 with profile strenght 4 plus poison. 3 of the heroes can get even more with double handed weapons, halberds and flamesword.

plus on T4 and two of them at T5 (resilient) they can also absorb quite some damage.

4) no access to blackpowder weapons:
true. but does not matter much if playing to vanilla rules, where armour is very rarely used. why use a pistol if you can use a crossbow pistol, why use a handgun if you can get a repeater crossbow with poison?

the only reason would be more armour penetration. but for that you need a considerable amount of armoured enemies.


SO.....

i don't want to rant totally, as I must confess that I played dark elves myself for a long time Smile And indeed they have the problem that their advantages only take full effect after a LONG time (which i only barely reached), when you have had time to get all those skills, push up their stats and buy all that very expensive equipment and models...


But: the main problem of elves is that they don't have a real weakness, whereas they are very good at cc, ranged and magic.


As the problems of the dark elves is their COMBINATION of features, the problem can be solved easily (me thinks):

*max BS6 (instead of 7)
*max T3 (instead of 4)
*only "master of poisons" for the high born
*no access to powerful build (i.e. strength skills)

this is all achieved by the "new" dark elves list which was once made by the author of the original dark elf list (i think).

but this list has also some problems (i.e. abductor skill, weak light crossbow) but in general it solves the loophole problems of the original dark elves list.


Last edited by Dahag on Fri 9 Jul 2010 - 15:29; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Official and Unofficial warbands   Fri 9 Jul 2010 - 6:28

I think the simplest fix for elves is to reduce the initiative on every elf with 5 or more by 1, and give them a max toughness by 3, and never let them access resilient.

That way they'd be easy to kill, but powerful in offence.

The problem is that most elf warbands can be played sort of simply, I had a shadow warrior warband that was close combat oriented (ok, everyone had a longbow, but why not give them one?) The first skill they took was lightning reflexes, as all of them had two weapons they simply killed opponents before they got to strike.

I really have troubles seeing how lizards could be overpowered. They've got nothing real good IMO.
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PostSubject: Re: Official and Unofficial warbands   Fri 9 Jul 2010 - 6:32

thanks for that you have explained dark elves quite well. I'd be interested to see the "new" dark elves list. Do you know where I can find it?

From what i have read of Shadow Warriors it seems to me they benefit from BS and I with very little GC cost added for the benefits.
The henchman Shadow Warrior I think is the most imbalanced getting increases in M, BS, WS, I & LD when compared to a Human Warrior and only for 10GC extra.

For Lizardman the scaly skin and bite attack seem the most obvious advantages with little disadvantage in exchange. But i think the Cold Blooded: 3D6 Ld roll is the biggest game changer.

I'd really love to allow these other warbands to run but it seems the best option would be to balance these advantages and then playtest the hell out of the changes would be needed to ensure they don't get nerfed.

I don't really have the time or inclination to go so far so hopefully someone might come forward and say they have already done it.

Otherwise I think the underdog thing might be the way to go.
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PostSubject: Re: Official and Unofficial warbands   Fri 9 Jul 2010 - 6:35

I think druchii.net made a new dark elf list.
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PostSubject: Re: Official and Unofficial warbands   Fri 9 Jul 2010 - 12:16

Second the Elves and Delfs being overpowered. The three strongest things in Mordheim are movement, shooting, and leadership, and Elves are as good, or better, than anyone else at those things.
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PostSubject: Re: Official and Unofficial warbands   Fri 9 Jul 2010 - 12:40

Hehe, too bad we don't have Asp here to do a "nuanced" analysis of whether elves belong in Mordheim or not Wink



Though I second the people in this thread who said that elves are overpowered. Some guys, Asp being one of them I think, said that IF you were to include elves, they should probably have no henchmen. I could see that working out although I don't think it would be as fun as two "normal" warbands facing off.
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PostSubject: Re: Official and Unofficial warbands   Fri 9 Jul 2010 - 13:15

Dahag wrote:
1)They are well at close combat:

Dark Elf Blade is a very good weapon: Sword and club in one item plus improved critical hits!
They reach can reach a high weapon skill AND they almost always hit first due to high I.

I'm just curious as to what elf in his right mind would be seen wielding a club? Razz And does your gaming group know you're using equipment not found on your warband's equipment list? \

hehehe just checking
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PostSubject: Re: Official and Unofficial warbands   Fri 9 Jul 2010 - 14:27

The Problem with Elves is that they have no flaws, and they are under priced.

Corsair -35
M WS BS S T W I A Ld
5 4 4 3 3 1 6 1 8

Shadow Warriors -35
M WS BS S T W I A Ld
5 4 4 3 3 1 6 1 8

Human Swordsman - 35
M WS BS S T W I A Ld
4 4 3 3 3 1 3 1 7

So you start-out with 4 stats above human stats for Free. Now +3 to Initiative isn't game breaking, but the other three are in Movement which you can never get, BS, and LD. There is a big difference between 7 and 8 on 2d6. 8 is 10/36 or 27.8% of failure vs 7 which is 15/36 or 41.7% chance of failure.

I understand that you cannot charge too much more for elves, come on all that for fee. Also the get Excellent Sight for free.

The ideas I have to balance them. I don't know if I would use all of them but I think that I would have to play test them to know if it would work. Firest Idea start them with toughness 2, and say they cannot raise it above 3. Increase their cost by at least 15 each. I would lose the Excellent Sight advantage, and I would make it so that they could never take strength skills no Powerful Build skill. I would dump the sniper skill, or make it something that anyone with shooting skills can take.

I also would change the cover rules. Any cover = +1, half +2 and 3/4 would be +3.
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PostSubject: Re: Official and Unofficial warbands   Fri 9 Jul 2010 - 15:16

Gorgar67 wrote:
thanks for that you have explained dark elves quite well. I'd be interested to see the "new" dark elves list. Do you know where I can find it?

thank you Smile The problem is that this list had been published on the SG homepage before they lost all posts. So I don't know if it still can be found anywhere on the internet.

As far as I know, there are at least two "new" dark elves lists. As has been stated already, one of these lists was made by the guys on druchii.net (community of dark elf players (mostly warhammer but also other systems)).

The other list is the one I was speaking of. I copy-pasted the list before the SG homepage went down. If there is interest, I could copy-paste it here. As it is not an official list it should not flout any copyrights. Or maybe someone of you guys know if its still available out there in the web, which would be great, too of course...
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PostSubject: Re: Official and Unofficial warbands   Fri 9 Jul 2010 - 17:38

shotguncoffee wrote:
Hehe, too bad we don't have Asp here to do a "nuanced" analysis of whether elves belong in Mordheim or not Wink

Yeah. It's a shame he didn't start a new account and give a false location to throw people off the scent. Then he could still post here and nobody would know...
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PostSubject: Re: Official and Unofficial warbands   Fri 9 Jul 2010 - 18:01

Hi everybody lol
I actually posted a reply to this thread before but something happened with the binternet and i was too annoyed to type it all again.

This is the new list: http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?t=64005&sid=c3f54ae0525cdbe155ddbcb1f669ed2f

It is a solid list and one that i've use in about a dozen battles. Its great how a community like that got together and re-created their mascot warband into a more flavourful and ballanced list. Well done them. The combined knowledge of a forum like that should naturally be able to make a more accurate list than the one TC produced.

Heres the list (straight from our wiki lol):


  • Amazon Warriors
  • Black Dwarfs
  • Bretonnian Knights
  • Clan Pestilens
  • Dark Elves Warband
  • Imperial Gunnerey School
  • Lizardmen Warriors
  • Norse Warband
  • Pirate Crew
  • Pit Fighters
  • Shadow Warriors (The only warband ever to be taken off the list of official warbands.)
  • The Outlaws of Stirwood Forest'
  • Tomb Guardians
Now 've not had much experience with these but the pit fighters are definately underpowered and not a problem when it comes to a campaign. Having equipment available in groups makes their starting warband VERY small (for humans). I always take the ogre though...

The only other notables are shadow warriors, which i have never ever used or came up against. However when something is echoed so much, I've only got to take peoples word for it that they are very dangerous indeed. Unless when they take a battering early on from what i've heard.

I wouldn't even consider the dark elves as broken in the new list. Nowhere near pit fighters/middenheimers but definately not overpowered either.

Interesting to see what people say about tomb kings, and the outlaws. I've never heard any opinions on these..
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PostSubject: Re: Official and Unofficial warbands   Fri 9 Jul 2010 - 22:39

The Outlaws of Stirwood Forest are supposed to be balanced (or maybe a little bit underpowered). My current Imperial Gunnery Shool warband is being slaughtered (probably just me though Very Happy ). Lizardmen didn't wow me when I played them even though they are supposed to be a little bit overpowered.

I've played against Amazon Warriors, Dark Elves and Shadow Warriors and haven't had any complaints about power levels.
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StyrofoamKing
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PostSubject: Re: Official and Unofficial warbands   Sat 10 Jul 2010 - 0:10

Yeah, the Imperial Gunner School in OUR campaign mowed nearly every player off the board.. of course, he had one or two Sartosa-only perks, but even without it, it was WAY too strong.

In GNERAL, the strength Unofficial Warbands vary. There is no overall trend of "they're all too strong", or "they're all too weak." Some warbands are claimed to be broken and unfair to play, but some players say the original "Possessed" or "Skaven" are unbalaced.

Generally, the older the unofficial warband, the safer it is, SOLELY because more of the original Mordheim creators were involved in the creation, and because they've been played by a lot more players. Cianty's "Border Town Burning" warbands might be just as balanced as the Dwarf Treasure Hunters (or more so), but the Dwarves have had hundreds of players playing, oh, ten thousand games with them, rather than seveal hundred with Cianty's. If it's still around and being played, then you probably won't go wrong.

And ultimately, it depends on how friendly or how competitive your games are. The personal who played Nuln gunnery is a power gamer to the extreme, who will scour the boards for the newer, stronger experimental bands- we'll look at HIS suggestions twice. On the other side, one player wanted to play "Killer Shrike's" Vampire Hunter warband. It's on the weak side and he lost about every game, but he had a lot of fun playing it. Hell, I played a SNOTLING warband (rules on the site). Chances of winning? Damn low... but if you enjoy yourself, that's what matters.
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PostSubject: Re: Official and Unofficial warbands   Sat 10 Jul 2010 - 15:09

feelingfine69 wrote:
This is the new list: http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?t=64005&sid=c3f54ae0525cdbe155ddbcb1f669ed2f

Thanks for the link feelingfine69 Smile The "other" list, of which I was talking, is the following btw. As we use it in our campaign I'm interested a lot if you find it balanced, or what you would change in it to make it fit...

P.S.: Please excuse the ugly design. The conversion to HTML did completely destroy the formats of the text. I already edited it for about 20 mins so I left the rest. I hope is somehow legible Smile





(copypasted from the SG site, 14.12.2007)


Here's the final Dark Elves.

Dark Ones of Naggaroth

Many dare not speak of the High Elves’ evil kin, the Druchii, or the Dark Elves
as they are better known. They are a race for whom pain and pleasure
have been pushed to the ultimate extreme. They leave destruction and
despair in their wake and are more greatly feared than the barbaric
Orcs and no less so than the tainted forces of Chaos and Undeath. To
the victims of the Dark Elves it is the fortunate to whom a quick
death is gifted for this twisted folk roam the Known World in search
of slaves. The slaves of the Dark Elves are either worked to death in
their mines, ripped apart on the altars to Khaine, their dark God, or
tortured mercilessly by the Brides of Khaine, the Witch Elves. Dark
Elves take a perverse delight in in#64258;icting pain upon others
just to see their victims suffer.

Despite their dire
reputation for cruelty they are only rivaled as explorers and
adventurers by their High Elven cousins. It is the lure of the
precious, arcane artifacts of the Slann that bring these foul
creatures to Lustria, traveling stealthily in their Black Arks and
penetrating deep into the jungle. Dark Elves are adept at stealth and
ambush and are well suited to the overgrown realm of the Lizardmen –
most warbands don’t even know they’re being attacked until it is
too late.

Choice of Warriors
A Dark Elf warband must
include a minimum of three models. You have 500 gold crowns to
recruit your initial warband. The maximum number of warriors in the
warband may never exceed 12.

Heroes

High Born: Each Dark Elf warband must have one High Born to lead it—no more, no less.

Beastmaster: Your warband may include one Beastmaster.

Fellblades: Your warband may include up to two Fellblades.

Sorceress: Your warband may include one Sorceress.

Henchmen

Corsairs: Your warband may include any number of Corsairs.

Shades: Your warband may include up to five Shades.
Beasthounds:
Your warband may include up to two Beasthounds if it also includes a
Beastmaster.

Starting Experience
High Born starts with 20 experience.
Fellblades start with 12 experience.
Sorceress starts with 10 experience.
Beastmaster starts with 10 experience.

Henchmen start with 0 experience.

Maximum Characteristics

Characteristics for Dark Elf warriors may not be increased beyond
the maximum limits shown below.

M WS BS S T W I A Ld
5 7 6 4 3 3 8 4 10

May Hire
A Dark Elf warband may employ the
following Hired Swords: Pit Fighter, Ogre Bodyguard, Warlock, Imperial Assassin, Tilean Marksman, and Dark Elf
Assassin.

Special Rules

Kindred Hatred: The Druchii have
been fighting the Asur for many centuries. The wars between these two
races have been very long and bloody affairs. Dark Elves Hate any
High Elf warriors including High Elf Hired Swords.

Fey
Acuity: An Elf’s senses are far beyond those of other races. You may roll one additional dice in the exploration phase due to the Dark
Elves’ enhanced awareness.

Black Powder Weapons: Dark Elves may never use black powder weapons as they find them crude, noisy and unreliable.

Untrustworthy: The Druchii’s cruelty is legendary among other races and tales of how they murder their own
kin are spread far and wide. When recruiting a Hired Sword that is not a Dark Elf, you must add 15 gold crowns to the hire fee.

Slave Masters: The Dark Elves abduct slaves in raids conducted from their dreaded Black Arks. The Dark Elves follow the rules for Skaven in the
Rulebook when it comes to captives.

DARK ELF EQUIPMENT LIST

Hand-to-hand Combat Weapons

Dagger 1st free/2 gc
Axe 5 gc
Sword 10 gc
Double-handed weapon 15 gc
Halberd 10 gc
Spear 10 gc
Beastlash 10 gc
Blacksteel Blade* 15 gc

Missile Weapons
Repeater Crossbow 40 gc
Light Crossbow 10 gc

Armour
Helmet 10gc
Light Armour 20 gc
Heavy Armour 50 gc
Shield 5 gc
Buckler 5 gc

SHADES EQUIPMENT LIST
Hand-to-hand Combat Weapons
Dagger 1st free/2 gc
Axe 5 gc
Sword 10 gc

Missile Weapons
Repeater Crossbow 40 gc
Light Crossbow 10 gc

Armour
Helmet 10 gc
Light Armour 20 gc
Buckler 5 gc

SPECIAL EQUIPMENT
Dark Venom* 20 gc
Sea Dragon Cloak** 30 gc

* May be taken by Heroes only.
** May be taken by Heroes and Corsairs only.

DARK ELF SKILL TABLES
High Born: Combat,
Shooting, Academic, Speed, Special
Sorceress: Academic, Speed, Special
Fellblade: Combat, Shooting, Speed, Special
Beastmaster: Combat, Speed, Special

HEROES

1 High Born
75 Gold
Crowns to hire
Dark Elf Leaders are typically drawn from the Dark
Elf nobility and lead the warband in search of gold, slaves and
arcane artifacts to bring home to Naggaroth. They are cold and
ruthless killers and they command the respect of their troops through
assassination and terror. They have attained their position of
leadership by eliminating rival nobles who stand in their way and
through their remarkable cunning, they are dangerous foes who embody
the merciless traits of the Druchii race.

M WS BS S T W I A Ld
5 5 4 3 3 1 5 1 9

Weapons/Armour: A High Born may be armed with weapons and armour chosen from the Dark Elf Equipment
list.

SPECIAL RULES
Leader: Any models in the warband within 6" of the High Born may use his Leadership instead of their own.

0-2 Fellblades
50 Gold Crowns to hire
The Fellblades are elite warriors of the Dark Elf armies and are often
linked to the household of a particular Noble family. Fellblades live
a life of strict martial training, each specializes in a particular
weapon and fighting style. Killing is a way of life for these
warriors and enemies can expect no mercy from them. Fellblades
accompany raiding parties to Lustria as paid guards or to further
hone their killing skills.

M WS BS S T W I A Ld
5 4 4 3 3 1 5 1 8

Weapons/Armour: Fellblades may be armed with weapons and
armour chosen from the Dark Elf Equipment list.

0-1 Beast Master
50 Gold Crowns to hire
Whereas the High Elves have a
great affinity with Dragons and Griffons and other noble creatures
their malevolent kin have infamous Beastmasters, Dark Elves of
particularly cruel renown who breed many vicious beasts and lead them
into combat. Unlike the High Elves who treat their beasts as
companions, the Dark Elf Beastmasters are very spiteful masters.

M WS BS S T W I A Ld
5 4 3 3 3 1 5 1 8

Weapons/Armour: A Beastmaster may be armed with weapons and armour chosen from the Dark
Elf Equipment list.

SPECIAL RULES
Beasthounds: The Beastmaster may be accompanied by up to two Beasthounds, these are
bought as henchmen and follow all rules for listed for them.

BEASTMASTER SKILLS
A Beastmaster may use the
following Skill table as well as any of the standard Skill tables
available to them.

Taskmaster: The Beastmaster has trained the Beasthounds to obey short barked commands. A Beastmaster extends his
control an additional 6” and Beasthounds may use his Leadership if within 12”.

Abductor: The Beastmaster has trained his Beasthounds to capture fallen foes. If an opponent loses a model
taken Out of Action by either a Beastmaster or a Beasthound, the model is captured and taken aboard the Black Ark. For every model
that is abducted, the Dark Elf player earns an additional D6 gold crowns as they are sold into slavery.

0-1 Dark Elf
Sorceress
45 Gold Crowns to hire
Dark Elves are strange in that
apart from the fell Witch King there are no other male sorcerers, all
the other practitioners of magic in the Dark Elf race are female. It
is rumoured that any males who do develop an affinity for magic
amongst the Dark Elves are immediately put to death to fulfill some
dark prophecy. Dark Elf Sorceresses are mysterious, raven-haired
beauties who are grudgingly respected even from the powerful High
Born and their services are high in demand.

M WS BS S T W I A Ld
5 3 3 3 3 1 5 1 8

Weapons/Armour: The Sorceress may be
armed with weapons and armour chosen from the Shades Equipment list,
but may not cast spells if wearing armour.

SPECIAL
RULES
Wizard: The Dark Elf Sorceress is a wizard and uses Dark
magic, detailed below.

HENCHMAN

Corsairs
40 Gold Crowns to hire
The Dark Elves are cruel and fierce fighters. This
is especially true of the Corsairs – the Black Ark Raiders. They
are skilled with sword and axe, as well as the repeater crossbow, the
distinct missile weapon of the Dark Elves. Whenever a Black Ark
explores the coast of Lustria the Corsairs are the first to launch
raiding parties.

M WS BS S T W I A Ld
5 4 3 3 3 1 5 1 8

Weapons/Armour: Corsairs may be armed with weapons and
armour chosen from the Dark Elf Equipment list. In addition, they may
wear Sea Dragon Cloaks even though they are not heroes.

0-5 Shades
30 Gold Crowns to hire
The stealthy Dark Elf Scouts rely
on their crossbows to harass and snipe at the enemy, rather than
engaging them head on as ambush is the preferred style of fighting.
Shades are young and inexperienced scouts that see the expeditions to
Lustria as a valuable training opportunity.

M WS BS S T W I A Ld
5 3 4 3 3 1 4 1 8

Weapons/Armour: Shades may be armed with weapons and armour chosen from the Shades Equipment list.

SPECIAL RULES
Vanguard: Shades use their stealth to get close to their enemies before battle ensues. They may make one
free move before the game begins.

0-2 Beasthounds
25 Gold Crowns to hire
The Dark Elves capture and breed many exotic
creatures to fight for them and fights between pets are often staged
as a form of entertainment amongst the Dark Elves. One such animal
was discovered in Lustria. Distantly related to Cold Ones, the
Beasthound lives in swamps and bogs. Beasthounds are larger than
wardogs and of similar build but are in all other respects reptilian.
Rows of sharp teeth fill its maw, and when provoked, the Beasthound
is a very aggressive beast. The Dark Elves capture and train these
creatures to fight in battles all over the Warhammer world.

M WS BS S T W I A Ld
6 3 0 4 4 1 1 1 4

Weapons/Armour:
Beasthounds are animals and do not need any weapons except their massive jaws.

SPECIAL RULES
Cause Fear: Beasthounds are vicious creatures that cause Fear.

Stupidity: Beasthounds are unintelligent brutes and suffer from Stupidity. A Beasthound will never use the warband leader’s Leadership for any tests it is required to take. It may use the Beastmaster’s leadership if within 6” of him however.

Beastmaster: The warband cannot control the Beasthounds without a Beastmaster. The Beasthounds may not be
used in any game in which the warband's Beastmaster does not take part (and this means that if the warband does not include a
Beastmaster at all, the warband must keep the Beasthounds in cages at camp until they hire a new one!).

Scaly Skin: Beasthounds have tough scaly skin, and are considered to have a 6+ armour save. This
save cannot be modified beyond 6 due to strength modifiers but any result of ‘no save’ on the injury chart will negate the unmodified 6+ save.

Animals: Beasthounds are animals and do not gain experience.

DARK ELF SPECIAL EQUIPMENT

This equipment is only available to Dark Elves, and no other warbands may
purchase it. See the Trading section in the Mordheim Rulebook for
full rules on acquiring rare items.

Blacksteel Blade
15 gold crowns
Availability: Common, Dark Elf only

Blacksteel blades are special swords forged in the city of Hag Graef from a rare
form of steel found deep in the mountains around the Dark Crag. Dark
Elves favor these blades over conventional swords because of the
amount of suffering they cause. Only Highborn and Fellblades may use
two Blacksteel Blades.

Range Strength Special Rules
Close Combat As user Critical Damage, Wicked Edge

SPECIAL
RULES
Critical Damage: When rolling on the critical hit chart add
+1 to the result.

Wicked Edge: The weapon’s sharp protrusions and serrated edges inflict excruciating pain. A roll of
2-4 on the injury table is a Stunned result.

Beastlash
15 gold crowns
Availability: Rare 8, Beastmaster only

The
Beastmaster makes good use of their whips to goad their hounds and
creatures into combat.

Range Strength Save Modifier Special Rules
Close Combat As user +1 Cannot be Parried, Whipcrack, Beastbane

SPECIAL RULES
Cannot be parried: A model attacked by a beastlash may not make parries with swords or bucklers.

Whipcrack: When the wielder charges they gain +1A
for that turn. This bonus attack is added after any other
modifications. When the wielder is charged they gain +1A that they
may only use against the charger. This additional attack will ‘strike
first’. If the wielder is simultaneously charged by two or more
opponents they will still only receive a total of +1A. If the wielder
is using two beastlashes at the same time then they get +1A for the
additional hand weapon, but only the first beastlash gets the
whipcrack +1A.

Beastbane: A Beastmaster wielding a beastlash causes Fear in animals. An animal charged or wishing to charge a
Beastmaster with one of these weapons must first take a Fear test as mentioned in the psychology section of the Mordheim Rulebook.

Light Crossbow
10 gold crowns
Availability: Rare 7, Dark Elf only

Cheap and easy to produce, the light crossbow is the
predecessor to the superior repeater crossbow. The light crossbow
still sees use as a training weapon for young Dark Elves or in combat
situations where the weapon is only needed for a single volley before
the Dark Elf charges into melee.

Range Strength Save Modifier Special Rules
18” 3 – Move or Fire, Armor Piercing

SPECIAL RULES
Move or Fire: You may not move and fire a light crossbow on
the same turn, other than to pivot on the spot to face your target or
to stand up.

Armor Piercing: When fired at short range, an
opponent struck makes his armour save with a -1 modifier.

Sea Dragon Cloak
30 gold crowns
Availability: Rare 9, Dark Elf
only

These heavy cloaks are fashioned from sea dragons that
dwell deep in the oceans depths. The cloak can be drawn tightly
around the body, acting as a shield against missile fire.

SPECIAL RULES
Scales: A Sea Dragon Cloak adds +1 to the model's save in
close combat, and +2 against ranged attacks. It may be combined with
light armour and shield.


DARK ELF SPECIAL SKILLS

Dark Elf Heroes may use the following Skill table instead of any of the
standard skill tables available to them.

Fey Quickness
Few can ever hope to match an Elf’s inhuman quickness and agility. An
Elf with Fey Quickness can avoid melee or missile attacks on a roll
of 6. If the Elf also has Step Aside or Dodge this will increase to a
4+ in the relevant area (an Elf with Fey Quickness and Step Aside
avoids melee attacks on a 4+ and missile attacks on a 6). Fey
Quickness cannot be used in conjunction with an any armour except for
Ithilmar.

Survival of the Fittest
The Dark Elf has learned to survive against the machinations of his Druchii kin. When rolling
on the Heroes Serious Injury chart for this Dark Elf after a game in
which he has been taken Out of Action, the dice may be re-rolled
once. The result of this second dice roll must be accepted, even if
it is a worse result.

Fury of Khaine
The Dark Elf is infused with an intense lust for combat and gains strength from
slaying his foes. If the Dark Elf takes an opponent Out of Action, he
immediately becomes frenzied. Follow the rules for frenzy in the
Psychology section of the Mordheim Rulebook.

Infiltration
A Dark Elf with this skill is always placed on the battlefield after
the opposing warband and can be placed anywhere on the table as long
as it is out of sight of the opposing warband and more than 12"
away from any enemy model. If both players have models which
infiltrate, roll a D6 for each, and the lowest roll sets up
first.

Eternal Hatred
The Dark Elf hates everyone and everything. He gains hatred against all opposing models. If the Dark
Elf already has hatred against a particular model, hatred will
continue through all hand-to-hand combat phases.

Master of Poisons (High Born Only)
The High Born knows the ancient Druchii
secret of concocting poison. Instead of searching for rare items, he
may search for raw materials which are a free rare 7 item. If the
High Born finds the materials, he gains one free dose of Dark Venom.
If he rolls a 12, he finds enough raw material to create two doses.
Dark Venom cannot be sold or traded as the formula is a closely
guarded secret. If the High Born is killed, the knowledge will be
passed on to Leader of the Warband and he may take this skill.

DARK ELF MAGIC

The magic of the High Elves is the most powerful
magic in the Known World. Its powers and arcane secrets are far
beyond the understanding of other mages with the exception of the
Slann.

D6 Result
1 Doombolt Difficulty 9
Whispering an ancient incantation the Sorceress conjures a bolt of pure dark
energy and unleashes it from her outstretched hand.

The bolt of doom may be targeted at any enemy model in line of sight. The
Doombolt has an 18" range and causes a Strength 5 hit. If the
target model is wounded, then the next closest model within 6"
is also hit on a 4+, at -1 Strength than the previous hit. The bolt
will keep leaping until there are no more targets within range or
until its Strength drops to a one. Each model can only be hit by a
bolt once per turn. Take armour saves as normal.

2 Word of Pain Difficulty 8
The Sorceress calls the curse of the Witch King down on his enemy reducing their willingness to fight.

The spell may be cast at an enemy model within 12". The victim must
re-roll all successful hand to hand or missile attacks and all to
wound rolls. If the victim wishes to charge, he must pass a
successful Leadership test first. Lasts until the beginning of the
next Dark Elf turn.

3 Soul Stealer Difficulty 9
At the Sorceress’s touch, the essence of life is drained from her enemy
and absorbed into her body giving him renewed strength and vigour.

Once successfully cast, the Sorceress has to make a to
hit roll against a model in base contact. If the attack is successful
and her opponent is struck, he suffers a wound with no armour save
possible. The Sorceress feeds on this life-force and adds one wound
to her profile. Note: the Sorceress can never have more then one
extra wound from the use of this spell and the extra wound is lost at
the end of the battle.

4 Flamesword Difficulty 8
Summoning Dark Magic the Sorceress engulfs a weapon in twisted black
flames.

The Sorceress may choose the hand-to-hand combat
weapon of a member of her warband within 6" to be engulfed in
flames. A weapon with these flames acts as a normal weapon of its
type, but also adds a +2 bonus to the users Strength. Hits inflicted
from the weapon ignore armour saves. Lasts until the Sorceress’
next shooting phase.

5 Deathspasm Difficulty 10
The Sorceress channels Dark Magic into her enemy, causing him to writhe
in excruciating pain.

The Deathspasm has a range of 6" and must be cast on the closest enemy model. The affected model must
roll on the injury chart. If successfully cast, the casting Sorceress is immediately knocked down.

6 Chillwind Difficulty 7
The Sorceress unleashes an unnatural blast of cold from her outstretched hand.

The Sorceress may target any model in line of sight
within 18". The model suffers a Strength 3 hit that ignores
armour saves. In addition, the affected model cannot charge or run in
the following turn due to the numbing coldness.

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Gorgar67



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Join date : 2010-07-09
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PostSubject: Re: Official and Unofficial warbands   Sun 11 Jul 2010 - 4:07

OK i playtested Wood Elves today and they are just way too overpowered. So we not allowing them in my coming campaign. Although a new Dark Elf ruleset has been provided no one is wanting to run them so they are out along with Tomb Kings again no one wants them at this stage.

So I'm going to allow the rest of the unofficial warbands but I'm undecided on the Lizardmen.

Can anyone give me some insight into why they are over powered or underpriced. At this stage the cold-blooded thing is the only thing that stands out to me and that is a simple thing to change the rule for in this campaign. (The campaign can be set in Summer so Coldblooded wont count) LOL
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PostSubject: Re: Official and Unofficial warbands   Today at 0:50

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