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Lord 0
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PostSubject: Re: Healing Herbs   Wed 5 Jan 2011 - 20:42

Von Kurst wrote:
This is an explanation for the rule, but it is not based on anything beyond speculation, whereas the rule as written gives a strong implication that drugs too are one use only.
Actually, it is based on very little speculation. There is one assumption, and that is this: Unless stated otherwise, items last for the whole campaign. I think we have to assume this because the vast majority of equipment like rope and hooks, elven cloaks, holy relics and the like all state nothing at all about how long they last.

The next rule we have is: All poisons last for one game. That same paragraph goes on to say how each poison can only be applied to one weapon, so it is pretty clear that they are talking about poisons and not drugs as drugs make no sense to be applied to weapons.

The next thing we have is that each drug except Mushrooms specifically says the *effects* last for only one game whereas every other one-use item makes a point of saying that there is only enough of the *substance* to last for one game or one use or what-have-you.

Von Kurst wrote:
Lasts one game sounds a lot like one use only to me.
That is the thing though, they specifically say it is the *effects* that only last one game. So yes, you are right- "the effects last one game" does sound a lot like "this item lasts one game", but 'sounds a lot like' does not mean 'identical to'.

Von Kurst wrote:
And if you don't get knocked down or stunned then you do gain the benefit even if you trade the drugs away?
Going by RAW? Yes. I think I would house rule it to fade after one game like the others though. But maybe not. We will have to have a few campaigns where we leave it as RAW to see if it is broken or not.

Von Kurst wrote:
Also when the drugs Crimson Shade or Mandrake Root or Healing Herbs are found by an event or as treasure, they are found in D3 doses. We have always played that either 3 characters used them for 1 game or 1 character could use them for 3 games. By your interpretation 3 characters could use them forever.
Yes, indeed. Just as if you find d3 handguns you can use those forever too Smile.

Von Kurst wrote:
I will also point out that when a poison is found in similar circumstances it is found in D3 doses as well. The evidence doesn't seem to support your thesis.
So are handguns, swords, crossbows, shields, and even light armours (I think. Not sure about the armour). Also, noone ever takes drugs, but they do still buy poisons even with the lasts-only-one-game thing, so this suggests to me that poisons are ok, drugs are underpowered.

Von Kurst wrote:
I think the first impression of the rule--that drugs and poisons are both one use only is probably the correct one.
It is probably what they *intended*, but it is not what they have written, and what they have written is intriguing enough for me to put forward to the others to play around with. Like I said, at the moment, noone ever takes drugs, but they do take poisons. I think the side-effects of the drugs will mean that they don't ever become something that everyone gets for everyone.
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PostSubject: Re: Healing Herbs   Wed 5 Jan 2011 - 22:13

Lord 0 wrote:
.
Von Kurst wrote:
I will also point out that when a poison is found in similar circumstances it is found in D3 doses as well. The evidence doesn't seem to support your thesis.
So are handguns, swords, crossbows, shields, and even light armours (I think. Not sure about the armour).

I shoulda known better. lol!
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PostSubject: Re: Healing Herbs   Wed 5 Jan 2011 - 23:20

Thanks jerks. Because of this thread our Witch Hunter player just bought Madcap Mushrooms for his Flagellant heroes (well, two of them, he doens't have enough for other two yet).

Let's see, for 36g (30 + 3D6), every fight this guy now has Frenzy (notice the A3):

M3 WS3 BS2 S4 T4 W3 I4 A3 Ld10
Strongman
Mighty Blow
Strike to Injure
Resilient
Step Aside
Pit Fighter
Combat Master
Horrible Scars (Fear)
Fanaitcal (like it matters at this point)

Uses a Double-Handed Hammer, Lucky Charm, Madcap Mushrooms

Thankfully he got beat up a bit early on and also has

Leg Wound -1 M
Hand Injury -1 WS
Blinded in One Eye (one more to go!)
(injuries are reflected in above stats, skills are not)

Even if it becomes Stupid, with Ld of 10, it really won't matter much. Only thing keeping this in check was a one time use clause.

Edit: If he rolls a 6 or a 9 on any advance rolls, that A3 becomes A4 (W and T for 9 are maxed so he chooses, S for 6 is maxed so it defaults to A)

I'm so glad he can't get Lighting Reflexes with this guy...

Edit 2: Crap! I didn't mention it because he had overlooked it at first, but now he says the next thing he's going to get is Healing Herbs for this beast as well. I was hoping he wouldn't think of that and stayed focused on offensive power. Good luck keeping a model that attacks as an A6 S7 in close combat without losing your entire warband in a few rounds. Keep in mind he gets an extra attack if more than one person is on him from Combat Master, and if he's in a building or bridge/platform, he gets +1 WS and another extra attack from Pit Fighter.
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PostSubject: Re: Healing Herbs   Thu 6 Jan 2011 - 0:31

At least he doesn't have an Elven cloak, so you can shoot him dead...ups, did I say that out loud? lol!
No, seriously, you obviously didn't play by these rules for Mushrooms so far, so if he can alter rules in the middle of a campaign, so can you. Frenzy just adding an attack instead of doubling it would take the edge off a little bit.


Last edited by Grimscull on Thu 6 Jan 2011 - 3:57; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Healing Herbs   Thu 6 Jan 2011 - 1:34

Well, since no one ever used them before, you could technically say they weren't altered. Really it doesn't affect me much, I was just being antogonistic. Who it really affects is the undead in our campaign, who previously had a lock on best warband.

Now with this new discovery, the Witch hunters (with a "massive" warband of 8 models, 4 of which are Flagellant heroes) are poised to contend with him. I would feel sorry for him, but he just decimated my Skaven (formally second strongest, highest Rated warband) two games ago, killing my Assassin, a Black Skaven (who I had since campaign start), and my sorcerer (who was getting buffed up again since losing first one). My warband is basically gone, so watching these unstoppable Flagellants tear through his ghoul horde will be amusing. Can't wait.
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PostSubject: Re: Healing Herbs   Thu 6 Jan 2011 - 2:06

I think the majority of players play healing herbs and drugs as one-battle duration items. I would not take this thread as the authority on whether or not that's the case. If you want the most authoritative answer on the issue, go over to the Specialist Games forums and ask there, then wait for an answer from Mod DaBank.

And Eagle5, if the flagellants have gotten that ridiculous, I would imagine your warband has some pretty hard hitters (or shooters) too. Although I do remember of all the nasty heroes I've faced in Mordheim, a certain frenzied flagellant hero makes the top 5 alongside a vampire and several possessed...
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PostSubject: Re: Healing Herbs   Thu 6 Jan 2011 - 8:44

I could have sworn there was a rule against Sisters or Witch Hunters using poisons. Can't seem to find it though....
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PostSubject: Re: Healing Herbs   Thu 6 Jan 2011 - 10:51

It says "any turn" for usage of a HH right? Not "every turn"? Although it seems like splitting hairs I would rule that HH are once per battle based on reading this thread.

Also for my clarification: The only time crimson shade is used up is when Johann the Knife takes a dose? His description of gear and rules seem to imply drugs are one use only, but that when taken the affect will last the whole battle.
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PostSubject: Re: Healing Herbs   Thu 6 Jan 2011 - 12:23

Not that it matters in this particular case, but just so you know for the future; saying that 'any' is singular is not splitting hairs, it is inventing a distinction that the language itself does not support Smile. I come across this annoyingly often - mostly in small children that fancy themselves rules-lawers. Also, both English and American dictionaries go with the "one or more" definition so I know it isn't just a cultural thing.

Healing herbs say they may be used during any recovery phase in the same way that Dark Venom says it grants any hit by the weapon +1 strength. If an item is somehow limited in usage, the rules will clearly state that it is. This is the case for every other piece of equipment. Some things are one use only, some are once per battle, some are for one entire battle, etc. If no duration is mentioned at all, then it lasts for the entire campaign.

The rules for the drugs quite specifically say that it is the *effects* that last for only one game, not the substance itself. Items that are intended to last only one battle or only one use specifically mention that the substance itself is being exhausted. They say things like "there is enough blackpowder for one game", not "the effects of the blackpowder last for one game".

Going by RAW, crimson shade is not ever used up, by anyone. You can *spend* a dose to hire Yohann the Knife, but after that he will only accept gold for his upkeep, and does not require any more crimson shade. Indeed, like all other Dramatis Personae, it is just as against the rules to give them any more equipment of any kind as much as it is to *take* any of their equipment.

A normal hero that is addicted to crimson shade does not consume the crimson shade either, but you must buy him a new one anyway or he will leave the warband. Personally, I think we will be houseruling this to say that it is, in fact, consumed by the hero and must be replaced if you don't want the hero to leave. As much as I dislike invoking RAI, I think they did intend the drugs to be consumed by the addict.
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PostSubject: Re: Healing Herbs   Thu 6 Jan 2011 - 14:12

That does make more sense. And I can see an addict using up a supply that should have lasted months in the time between battles.

Also after reading the LRB again I am blown away by how different the wording says it is compared to what I thought it did. It seems fairly clear that the only restriction on usage of HH is to be out of close combat durring recovery phase.

I am willing to admit when i was wrong, and it seems I was.

Also, I believe poisons could be defined as the items that have to be used on a weapon while the drugs are multi-use and only limited by their side-effects.

I would also argue the wording of the Crimson Shade implies an addict actually uses up the supply. But that is the only case I can see where your drug wears out. This makes Goblin Fanatics much more affordable!

I will keep my Snotling's special shrooms that the skill generates as one use only, but if a supply is purchased it does seem to keep lasting.

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PostSubject: Re: Healing Herbs   Thu 6 Jan 2011 - 14:32

Lord 0 wrote:
This is the case for every other piece of equipment. Some things are one use only, some are once per battle, some are for one entire battle, etc. If no duration is mentioned at all, then it lasts for the entire campaign.
As you stated before, this is and remains an assumption rather than an actual rule. Applied common sense, so to speak.

To me, common sense also suggests that a portion of herbs I munch down are in no way comparable to a metal pot I place on my head, or a spiky stick I hold in my hand to bash down the metal pot on the head of my colleague, regarding the aspect of their lifetime, of course.

If anyone's notion of common sense suggests otherwise, then fine, but please, do not postulate that this or that or anything was The Way of the RulesTM, because the rules as written are definitely not an absolute, unambigious, evident and self-explainingly clear entity that makes sense without applying at least some degree of own / other / common sense, premises, conditions, interpretations etc. If they were, there would be no misunderstandings and this whole forum section would be obsolete. Smile

(Why someone would willingly weigh the factor Rules as Written - especially the Mordheim Rules as Written! Laughing - over the factor Common Sense quite frankly eludes me, but suum gustibus cum hoc expectandum, and so on Wink).


And now, for something (not so) completely different: Can the Sword Breaker break the fists of my warrior? Because, you know, technically, "Fist" is a weapon listed in the "Weapons and Armour" section... Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Healing Herbs   Thu 6 Jan 2011 - 15:28

Point 1: I think the Herbs represents a stash of herbs, not just a single dose. Which makes sense to me gamewise now since you need to spend a hero looking for it which is not a sure shot, and it is a good chunk of gold to spend.

Point 2: Yes I would say the Sword Breaker breaks your fist. Which disarms you. Which doesn't matter since you then just default to fists.

Point 3: I agree with your common sense arguement, so while I would argue the RAW says multi-use, I would like to hear what the big Da' has to say.

Point 4: In my games I house rule the Herbs to be one use only, but they can also be used to allow a hero a reroll on the serious injury chart, or a T check to remove Nurgles Rot. (or was the Nurgles Rot thing the Tears of Shallya...)
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PostSubject: Re: Healing Herbs   Thu 6 Jan 2011 - 16:17

While it may well be multi-use, I read it as single-use. There are as many reasons pro as are contra for both trains of thought, and both equally make sense. I just like to understand it as a single dose rather than a stash. Smile

And on a similar note, I looked for this FAQ that was mentioned earlier, the one that stated that Hunting Arrows lasted for the whole campaign - since I treat them as single-use (or rather, single-battle-use), too, main arguments being the analogy to Superior Blackpowder (which is, in my opinion, roughly and essentially Hunting Arrows for guns, but has unambigious rules for its lifespan), and the fact that the Living Rule Book, which came after most (I am not sure, was there another official Rules Review after the LRB?) of the relevant FAQs and incorporated all of those, has them unchanged in this regard.
But I did not find the FAQ - could anyone point me to it, or does anyone know more about its status (since there are a few FAQs which contradict official rules and are themselves not deemed official in spite of a big name in the headline)?

My assumption is simply that, for consumables, the bought item represents a dose, not a stash. Poisons, drugs, herbs etc. - they are all too seldom, too specific, too rare, in my book, to be bought in a steady supply (the fact that they have a "Rare X" behind them, corroborates this - for me, adequately Wink).

Since the prices for items are generally adjusted to game balance, and not to any coherent economy, and since game balance is, once again, highly subjective (group A may find something extremely unfair and over- / underpowered, while to group B such a thought never occurred), they may or may not indicate anything, but at the end of the day, I would rather have a warband buy (and think thoroughly about) every one of those "power-ups" separately than have a never-ending inflation of substances that should be (again, in my opinion) the exception rather than the rule.
Besides, where would a warband spend its money in the later stage of a campaign, if everything (except those few items where a single use is explicitly stated and no hair can be split about it), once bought, lasted forever? The concept of a (very, I know! Wink) theoretical point of fulfillment, where everything is topped out, is a bit boring, I think (aye, I know, in such a stage, that would be the least point of boredom, but still, it is another factor).

On the fist-thingy: Does the broken Fist have to be represented on the model? And with how many Fists does a warrior start his career? Does he have to take the Weapons Expert skill, since no warband (I know of, maybe room for new ones) has a Fist in its starting weapons list? Wink


/Edit: I like your house rules about the widened spectrum of applicability, Balrog. It reminds me of this proposition for allowing Armour-users a saving throw / re-roll against Dead and other nastiness on the Serious Injury Chart. Such thinking out of the box of everything just having effects in direct combat and nowhere else would really raise the value of some other un(der)appreciated items (of course, Mordheim is still a combat game first. I mean, if we would want to simulate everything an item does, we could play GURPS... Wink).
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PostSubject: Re: Healing Herbs   Thu 6 Jan 2011 - 16:43

I agree. Just stated what the RAW seemed to say. And as we all know half of the Mordheim RAW is confusing. The other half has been FAQ'd. Razz

And as for the Fists I will have to say that no. My interpretation is only that WYSIWYG only applies to models at the start of a battle. As long as his fist heals by next battle there is no need for representing it. Or better yet, just give your guys gloves and then never any need to. Cathayan Monk 2
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PostSubject: Re: Healing Herbs   Thu 6 Jan 2011 - 23:25

DRD1812 wrote:
I could have sworn there was a rule against Sisters or Witch Hunters using poisons. Can't seem to find it though....

On the Price Chart in the back of the book, Campaign section, under the listing for Black Lotus and Dark Venom it says "Not available to Witch Hunters, Warrior-Priests, and Sisters of Sigmar." It does not say that under Madcap Mushrooms, Crimson Shade, or Mandrake Root.

Which I guess is another piece of evidence that those drugs are classified seperately from the poisons and don't necessarily follow the same rules...
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PostSubject: Re: Healing Herbs   Fri 7 Jan 2011 - 8:49

Thanks for finding that Witch Hunter/Sisters rule. Was driving me nuts yesterday.

In terms of the concept of a "stash" of drugs.... Honestly now, what kind of drug deal works like that?

"I've got 30 crowns for a dose of Crimson Shade."

"One dose, Sir? Are you sure you wouldn't rather try the lifetime supply?"

"Lifetime supply? How much is that?"

"Why it's 30 crowns, Sir."

"You're putting me on."

"Oh no, Sir. I just go down the local shurbber's and pick all I want."

"So...why can't I just do that then?"

"Guild rules, Sir."

"Guild? What guild?"

"The Guild of Narcotic Shrubbers. They wouldn't let you in."

"Well why not?"

"Only shrubbers are let in."

"'Fine then. How does one become a shrubber?"

"Ah. One Writ of Shrubbery coming right up, Sir. That will be 30 crowns."

And honestly guys, if you had a never-ending stash of drugs, why wouldn't one purchase supply the whole warband?

For me, the fact that Crimson Shade costs about the same as Dark Venom, is strictly better, BUT has a side effect, makes it seem like part of the same category in terms of power. Therefore it OUGHT to be one time use. That said, I am not opposed to house-ruling a few changes to make drugs more playable. Maybe reduce the chance of addiction or other negative side-effects?
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