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Mr.chair
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PostSubject: Healing Herbs   Wed 16 Jun 2010 - 14:23

We're having a bit of a problem at my local game store due to the description of healing herbs. The rules don't state whether they're
A) One time us
B) One use per game
C) Unlimited uses per game

Just curious how others are playing it.
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PostSubject: Re: Healing Herbs   Wed 16 Jun 2010 - 14:57

actually i never tried it out long enough to speak from a lot of experience. but considering a model like a T6 W4 Vampire or Possessed using it more than once per game i cannot imagine to be balanced. So i guess i'd exclude C!

Thus i'd tend to either A or B (slightly favourising A).
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PostSubject: Re: Healing Herbs   Wed 16 Jun 2010 - 16:33

It be a one time use. Once they are used they be gone.
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PostSubject: Re: Healing Herbs   Wed 16 Jun 2010 - 17:23

We only rarely buy them, since they are useless unless you have a two+ wound model. We play with them having one use, and then they are gone.
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PostSubject: Re: Healing Herbs   Thu 17 Jun 2010 - 7:32

We have always played them as they are written in the book - they are *not* a one use item - you can use them as many times as you like. It just means you have to rush whoever has them in close combat.
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PostSubject: Re: Healing Herbs   Thu 17 Jun 2010 - 15:46

"We have always played them as they are written in the book - they are
*not* a one use item - you can use them as many times as you like."

That is not how they are written in the book. The book does not specify one way or the other whether they are used up:

"A Hero with healing herbs can use them at the beginning of any of his recovery phases as long as he is not engaged in hand-to-hand combat. This restores all wounds he has previously lost during the game."

It doesn't say he can use them a second time in the same battle, although it certainly seems implicit as worded. Looking through the rulebook just now, it seems to me that there are enough examples where the rules explicitly state that something is used up after one battle (superior blackpowder, poisons, garlic) that not saying it can reasonably be taken as meaning that the item is not used up (which is not the same as saying it is not used up). Somewhere (a Town Cryer?) I vaguely remember someone asking if Hunting Arrows were used up after one battle, and the answer was "no"; like Healing Herbs, the description for Hunting Arrows doesn't explicitly state they are not used up, which again lends weight to the argument that HH aren't used up.

Blessed Water seems to be in a category by itself - only good for one use, but if you don't use it in a game (presumably) you still have it the following game... although again that is an interpretation based on the fact the rules don't say the vial disappears after one game, as it does with poisons etc.

So, although my group played with HH as one-use items, I think you can make a stronger argument that the intent was that once purchased, you have an unending supply.
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PostSubject: Re: Healing Herbs   Fri 18 Jun 2010 - 2:03

mweaver wrote:
Blessed Water seems to be in a category by itself
It only seems this way because you have forgotten about Nets, Caltrops, and Flash Powder .
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PostSubject: Re: Healing Herbs   Fri 18 Jun 2010 - 6:42

Never used any of them!
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PostSubject: Re: Healing Herbs   Fri 18 Jun 2010 - 7:22

No wonder you forgot about them then .
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PostSubject: Re: Healing Herbs   Fri 18 Jun 2010 - 9:39

Does it not make more sense for the herbs to be used up after only a single use? I'd imagine the hero wouldnt get much out of them by rubbing them on his skin, so if they were eaten they obviously couldnt be eaten again later...

I just think it would be a little over powered if you could keep 'topping up' a multi wound hero- it would severely annoy anyone trying to shoot your hero down if they just kept going back to max wounds again. I know this has nothing to do with the R.A.W but hey, I know if I used them it'd be a one use thing.
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PostSubject: Re: Healing Herbs   Fri 18 Jun 2010 - 10:17

We treat it as one use only. We didn't think that was a house rule, but it can be. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Healing Herbs   Fri 18 Jun 2010 - 11:32

I'm not sure it matters a huge amount for two-wound models, since as like as not they are going down to one (critical) blow as not. But on those occasions where you have a model with 3 or more wounds, unending HHs are reaaaaalllly powerful. One of my baby warbands has a new ogre hero (via The Lad's Got Talent); he would love ever-replenishing healing herbs.
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PostSubject: Re: Healing Herbs   Fri 18 Jun 2010 - 11:49

I think our store has concluded that one use per game seems to be about right as the herbs are somewhat expensive, but being able to continually ramp your model back up to full wounds for an entire game seems somewhat unsporting.

Amusingly, another player noted that madcap mushrooms don't have any one use clause either.
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PostSubject: Re: Healing Herbs   Fri 18 Jun 2010 - 12:05

Hunting arrows are another one that surprised me when I first read them. Superior Blackpowder is for one game only, but Hunting Arrows are forever. At one point I considered creating a skill that allowed you to make hunting arrows, if you also paid for some training and tools - basically the Hunting Arrows would still have had their cost, but you would also have to burn a skill slot. But I like keeping house rules to a reasonable minimal, and never implemented it.
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PostSubject: Re: Healing Herbs   Fri 18 Jun 2010 - 12:09

one time use ofcourse its a herb u eat it or rub it or boil tea from it or whatever and then uve used it its not a tree u carry around that keeps growing new stacks its one use if u want more uses out of it just buy several per game

unlimited use is way overpowered and would mean something like a posessed or vampire would be virtually invincible when he has a few moer wounds

i suppose a house rule for one use per game could work since that doesnt work towards invinciblity but merely saves money

i mean cmon for unlimited use items they're way too cheap
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PostSubject: Re: Healing Herbs   Fri 18 Jun 2010 - 13:59

Holy cats, waaaaay overpowered if multi-use.

I would never bring henchmen to a fight with my orcs if that were the case. My orcs would be invincible.
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PostSubject: Re: Healing Herbs   Fri 18 Jun 2010 - 17:01

Your orcs already are invincible! Very Happy

But really, just how long in that aloe gonna last in Mordheim? Certainly not forever!

While i can see the very valid argument otherwise, because of the way the miscellaneous items are worded... NO! Just no! Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Healing Herbs   Fri 18 Jun 2010 - 21:01

How is a box of herbs that lasts forever any more silly than hunting arrows that last forever or throwing knives that last forever or, for that matter, normal arrows that don't cost anything ever?

The fact that they do last forever obviously means you have the background wrong - they are not just one herb that you eat and is then gone but rather many of them that you replenish in the same way you replenish hunting arrows, throwing knives, and fire-bombs.

We have always used them this way and they have never been a problem. Yes, they are powerful, but the same tactics you have to use to take out a levelled vampire/possessed still work here - isolate and overwhelm; you can't use them in close combat.

Remember, by the time a vampire *gets* that powerful you are likely to be not insignificant yourself.
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PostSubject: Re: Healing Herbs   Sat 19 Jun 2010 - 7:04

I would have imagined that with arrows/ hunting arrows/ throwing knives it wouldn't be too much to ask to be able to reclaim some from the battlefield, or other areas of battle; it doesn't seem to strange to suggest that it would be the sort of thing people would come across when exploration for wyrdstone goes on. Failing that the warbands upkeep (when selling wyrdstone) is supposed to cover food/ repairs etc. so presumably some kind of item replenishment could go on then- buying sticks and a knife and carving more or something...

Black powder gets consumed with use, hence Sup.B.Powder being one game only- you'd carry a powder horn and it'd get used little by little as you go.

Herbs would be most likely be eaten, hence why I feel they should be one-use. It also isn't like you're likely to find that many herbs (or any other plant I imagine) knocking around a city that got flattened, burnt and scorched by a flaming meteor so I would have imagined it wouldn't be the kind of thing you'd find during the inter-battle replenishment steps. Perhaps they're over-priced for what they'd do with only a single use, but there's other stuff thats also over priced for what it does *cough* Handguns and Armour *cough*
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PostSubject: Re: Healing Herbs   Sat 19 Jun 2010 - 7:14

"How is a box of herbs that lasts forever any more silly than hunting arrows that last forever or throwing knives that last forever or, for that matter, normal arrows that don't cost anything ever?"

As I mentioned earlier, it does seem a little odd to me that Hunting Arrows are a permanent upgrade once you buy them. With mundane missiles (throwing knives and arrows) they are either easily recoverable (knives) or amazingly cheap to replace (arrows), and at any rate tracking expenditure of ammunition would be a pain.

"Yes, they are powerful, but the same tactics you have to use to take out a levelled vampire/possessed still work here - isolate and overwhelm; you can't use them in close combat."

Actually, the tactic I'd prefer would be to pin-cushion him with missile fire from a nice, safe distance, and perpetual healing herbs would make that tactic considerably more difficult to pull off...
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PostSubject: Re: Healing Herbs   Sat 19 Jun 2010 - 8:48

Lord0 you are correct in your literal interpretations of the rules. According to the wording of each individual item, firebombs and healing herbs can be used every turn!

Despite this fact i am still treating them as one use items, like i always have, and we'll have to agree to disagree.Very Happy

Please understand i'm not trying to challenge your opinions or change your mind. The great thing about this game is how each group of players makes it their own!

There is nothing wrong with different interpretations so long as everyone in the gaming group understands how each item will be played. The need for each group to have it's own house rules and interpretations document is one thing i blame on the designers, They assumed the readers would fill in the blanks and vagaries themselves.

The firebomb rules say it is thrown like blessed water, which does not imply it follows any other rules for blessed water. The rules for blessed water state is is one use, which i apply to firebombs as well even though the rules don't support this strictly by the letter.
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PostSubject: Re: Healing Herbs   Sat 19 Jun 2010 - 13:46

"Joins the unit like an IC"... Rules comparing to other rules are bound fail.

On the topic of the HH we play it as a one use only, but I would agree to a houserule saying that all items not specifically OUO, could be used game after game. Letting HH replenish wounds several times during the same game (every recoveryface springs to mind) has too much potential for a 20gc item.
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PostSubject: Re: Healing Herbs   Sat 19 Jun 2010 - 16:01

The Ultra-Mega Bob wrote:
Herbs would be most likely be eaten, hence why I feel they should be one-use.
Not all herbs are meant to be taken internally. Indeed, the way magic works here it would not surprise me to learn that ingesting such a highly magical plant would be almost as bad as wolfing down a handful of warpstone dust. It could *easily* be a root that you bruise and then rub onto the affected area and, given that it lasts multiple games, probably is.

The Ultra-Mega Bob wrote:
It also isn't like you're likely to find that many herbs (or any other plant I imagine) knocking around a city that got flattened, burnt and scorched by a flaming meteor so I would have imagined it wouldn't be the kind of thing you'd find during the inter-battle replenishment steps.
They grow along the banks of the river that flows through Mordheim, so they probably *are* able to be found in Mordheim (at the edges at least) or if not in the city then you won't have to go far to find them. Healing herbs sound like exactly the sort of thing that traders would bring in - the same ones that bring in the food and beer and so forth; we know they can't be that hard to find along the banks of the river because they are only rare 8 instead of rare 12 or something.

mweaver wrote:
[arrows are] amazingly cheap to replace
Actually (says Mr Pedandic), until mass production arrows really aren't
cheap to make as each one requires *hours* of effort. And if hunting
arrows and throwing knives are so easily recoverable, then why can't
warbands get them for free? You can't be just recovering your own
because if you were then every time you lost you wouldn't be able to recover them.

mweaver wrote:
I'd
prefer ... to pin-cushion him with missile fire from a nice, safe
distance
The vamps in these parts tend to stay hidden until the
charge - you get one turn of shooting at the most. Still, with your own
healing herbs it means that any of your own multiwound models the ghouls
didn't take OOA outright will be fully healed for swarming the vampire.

Pathfinder Dubstyles wrote:
The rules for blessed water state is is
one use, which i apply to firebombs as well even though the rules don't
support this strictly by the letter.
For us, firebombs are on
par with a blunderbuss in terms of power. The template is shorter, but
wider. BB auto-hits, but is only S3; FB require a BS roll. FBs do
multiple wounds to the target and ignores armour save on the target, but
has a very real chance of hitting your own warband unintentionally.

A blunderbuss is kept all the time, so we saw no reason to make
firebombs one-use either. They are hardly ever purchased, and even those
warriors that have them hardly ever use them. Still, just the fact that
they are on the field helps discourage Skaven and Orcs from swarming
too much, making it easier to take them on a bit at a time. Healing
Herbs helps there too - stops them chipping away at your heroes too
much.

Konfa wrote:
Letting HH replenish wounds several times during the same
game (every recoveryface springs to mind) has too much potential for a
20gc item.
In practice, it doesn't seem to impact the campaign
negatively; we are never thinking "man, if only there were no healing
herbs" or anything. The fact it is available to everyone helps quite a bit, I guess.
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PostSubject: Re: Healing Herbs   Sat 19 Jun 2010 - 16:55

An excellent and spirited argument, O!

I'm still not going to let them be unlimited auto-healers.
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PostSubject: Re: Healing Herbs   Sat 19 Jun 2010 - 18:14

So do you limit fire bombs to one use per game like blunderbusses?
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