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Lord 0
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PostSubject: Re: Weak Leader issues...   Thu 10 Jun 2010 - 18:33

Why does he have to lose speed skills? Losing level-ups is pretty brutal and there isn't really any backround or balance reason to do so that I can see. I think it is enough that he loses access to them and the promoted person gains access to them.

And why does he have to lose Da Cunning Plan? It wouldn't work, of course because he is no longer the leader, but what happens when the leader is taken OOA? Or has to miss the game for whatever reason? There is no reason that it couldn't start working again while he is the active leader.

Also, what happens if the usurper *dies* and the leader becomes leader again? You would have lost all those speed and leader-only skills for no good reason and have a leader even *worse* than a starting leader because you would be missing even *more* level ups.

If you really want the skills to stop working I think they should be deactivated rather than removed, but I don't think they need even that.
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PostSubject: Re: Weak Leader issues...   Thu 10 Jun 2010 - 23:25

@ Lord 0: thanks for your reply!

I find you're making a good remark. Deactivating skills is hard enough and creates the same effect for what I wanted to achieve.

The reason why i thought a downgraded leader should lose those skills (and access to the according tree) is to avoid that you could work out a loophole to get - over time - your heroes access to a skill tree they usually don't have.

Or to express it in the Orc example from above:

ok, let's say this downgraded leader keeps all the speed skills and the new leader gets access to it and gains one or more speed skill during his leadership (e.g. sprint also).

If he gets usurped himself and keeps those speed skills, and you repeat this process again and again, after some time you can have whole 6 heroes sprinting around with M 12 or any other amount of speed skills.

or a centigor with M 27 (!) and 5 beastmen heroes at M 15

or resilient, DHW swinging necromancers with strongman (although I doubt he would take that vampire down all on his own in the first place Smile ).

Or another example:

According to some "new" darkelf warband rules, a leader (and only him) can create poison. if you usurp him and the new leader gains also posion making and so forth, you end up with 6 heroes that can create poison.


and so on.

to avoid such situations i had thought that downgraded leaders shouldn't keep such skills.

don't you find it to be a problem also? or maybe am I rather "panicking" Smile


but - as said before - I totally agree with you that deactivation would be effectful enough. (but one would have to really keep track of which skills are deactivated and which are not to avoid confusion.)
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PostSubject: Re: Weak Leader issues...   Fri 11 Jun 2010 - 2:54

Lord 0 wrote:
Do you start them rolling from youngblood stats or do you start them from leader stats?

We use the leaders exp boxes on the basic roster and make a roll for every dark outlined box they start with ticked. We do the same for any hero that starts with EXP.
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PostSubject: Re: Weak Leader issues...   Fri 11 Jun 2010 - 7:22



For Orcs, Chaos and toughest man leads the warband this makes sense, but for other warbands like Skaven, or Lizardmen it doesn't make as much sense.

Some warbands the leaders aren't the toughest guy, it is the smartest guy. The Skaven leader would never want to be the toughest guy, instead he would allow others to go into the dangerous situations.

Lizardmen are ruled by the Skinks not the Saurus, mostly because Skinks are smarter, also because there are many more skinks then Saurus.

I do not like the idea of switching-up skill availabilities. You purchase a hero he has those slots open to him those are a part of their inherent cost. One of the things you are paying for when you purchase the Leader is access to those skill slots. It is apart of his costs, that is why some people feel he is over priced, most people over look that when they try to appraise his value.

I think if you allow your heroes to trade the leader title around and along with it access to skills that could be exploited and you are getting advantages that you didn't pay for when you purchased your character.

I think the Deactivating Skills would curb this, but I think it is a little silly, I forgot how to run fast because I am no long the leader, or if shooting was the extra skill class then you would forget how to work your bow. Also your leader you thought was weak is now even weaker as a hero. Why would you want this? Maybe if you had a hero with a higher leadership then your current leader and you really need that higher leadership for things like Route Tests.
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PostSubject: Re: Weak Leader issues...   Fri 11 Jun 2010 - 15:38

Rudeboy makes a good point about the way leadership works in certain warbands. Also Undead would be a similar circumstance.

I also agree that skill trees as they stand shouldn't be messed around with.

The House Rule that I typed up is just a rough idea, and really was only intended to provide a mechanism to allow a player to dispose of what they might consider a worthless leader.

This rule basically exists now, but your leader has to die for it to take place. Don't forget that.
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PostSubject: Re: Weak Leader issues...   Fri 11 Jun 2010 - 15:46

Good posts to all, but the real reason I want a more powerful leader is to have a viable reason for keeping him around. I love the ideas of fighting for leadership - but I want a leader who can be an example to all other warband members....I.E. The warboss has GOT to be the biggest orc!
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PostSubject: Re: Weak Leader issues...   Fri 11 Jun 2010 - 16:16

I agree that my proposition exchanging skill trees is complicated and only partially satisfying in the result at best.

But don't you guys think it's a problem, when the new leader has only access to two skill classes in the "worst" case?
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PostSubject: Re: Weak Leader issues...   Fri 11 Jun 2010 - 19:28

Our campaigns have had a 'house rule' challenge for leadership rule for years although we don't always play by it if everyone can't agree. Mainly its a rule that I use to make the story line of my own warband more interesting.

When I first proposed it I applied it to evil warbands such as Possessed, Skaven and the like. I really enjoy it with orcs and beastmen as it seems custom made for them.

We resurrected the rule last year for our first Sartosa campaign and it was quite entertaining. No Captain was deposed in a duel although several were fought.

Most recently an Estalian LGT challenged his captain and was clubbed stupid in the resulting duel. Its fun and provides great stories as long as the players are into it.
As a related aside with one Skaven warband that lost its leader in the 2nd or 3rd game I devised a special civil war scenario in which the whole warband met in a maze of death to duel for the leadership of the clan. Each of the other players took control of one of the surviving heroes and we duked it out. I ended up with a Ld 6 leader. That warband was a challenge. The usurper fought nearly every one of his subordinates over the course of the campaign but retained leadership and was quite mean by the end.

Finally as a comparison not only does Necromunda have a challenge rule but LofHS has a mutiny rule whereby a Captain can be deposed after each loss.
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PostSubject: Re: Weak Leader issues...   Fri 11 Jun 2010 - 21:11

Dahag wrote:
The reason why i thought a downgraded leader should lose those skills (and access to the according tree) is to avoid that you could work out a loophole to get - over time - your heroes access to a skill tree they usually don't have.
Depends on what triggers the challenges. The only system I have ever actually used was when a member would challenge only if he gained *more* leadership than the leader. For most human warbands the leader starts at 8 and the racial maximum is 9 so once the leader got one Leadership level up he could no longer be challenged.

Also, under that system the ousted leader most commonly left the warband with *all* his weapons and equipment. That *really* discouraged people from trying to juggle things.
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PostSubject: Re: Weak Leader issues...   Fri 11 Jun 2010 - 21:34

Well this topic has turned away from making leaders different and interesting and towards leadership challenges and the problems they create.

Necromunda never dealt with leader only skills when a leader is ousted either. The situation never came up when i played, but i can see the potential problems.

The way I see it, any skills that are "leader only" become dormant, and may not be used by the defeated leader. If he somehow manages to become leader again, they return.

As far as available skill types, remember that they are set by the type of warrior, not the leader status. So a defeated Possessed Magister is still a magister, while the Mutant that just kicked his butt is still a mutant. I can see no reason to worry about changing which skills are available for these warriors.

Sure, he Mutants won't be able to take Hunch, but that's the price the warband pays for the unfortunate event of a power struggle!
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PostSubject: Re: Weak Leader issues...   Sat 12 Jun 2010 - 1:01

To addresses Figgy's question.
In the initial post the complaint seemed to be about Heros surpassing the leadership after a few games. At least that is how I read it.

If you are trying to make leaders different from the begining then the various suggestions about rolling for initial skill ups seems like the most likely candidate. Although this still does not assure you will get great rolls, but they would certainly be different.

Anything else starts getting too complicated when you consider fluff and the different races involved as mentioned previously.


It really seems like you would have to implement a little bit of both to get what you are after.
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PostSubject: Re: Weak Leader issues...   Sat 12 Jun 2010 - 1:51

I'd say the easiest would be to let the leader, and the leader only, pick its advances. I'm not sure if this is good however.

And, am I the only one who regards LD good for a leader?
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PostSubject: Re: Weak Leader issues...   Sat 12 Jun 2010 - 8:15

LD good, +1.

Making the leader better. I always find it depends on the warband and how it is played. My orc is always the best fighter/shot because he gets more OOA results.

Most often the shaman becomes the better fighter depending on his spells and injuries. The big uns die or become cripples.

Humans are a different story.
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PostSubject: Re: Weak Leader issues...   Mon 14 Jun 2010 - 8:04

Most of the Warbands I have played I have either had me leader stay one of the most powerful characters in my warband, or they were a spell caster or they became a tactician where they couldn't fight as well as other characters, but they gave the over all warband advantages.

I have to say I do like the idea of a fight for leadership in concept, but I worry that if you allow leaders to have access to different skill classes because they are leaders then it could be exploited. Some warbands this makes perfect sense, your Orcs, and Chaos warbands you'll have the toughest take over, but in other warbands leadership isn't based on physical it's based on leadership, divine/birth right, or who is the most conniving.

Back to the weak leader issue. I think it would depend on the leader and their skill set, and your winning record how quickly they would gain exp. Like Von Kurst when I played Orcs as soon as my leader got the Strongman skill he got a 2 handed weapon and became a killing machine. Between winning and kills he got between 3 to 5 exp a game. He would charge into combat flanked by my Big 'Un's and he would take down model after model. So I never had an issue like this.

Now I could see it if my Orc leader started losing and he didn't get the kills, but I had a LGT that did get the kills and over time got to a point where he could rival the leader then I could see it working fluff wise and I think it would give a cool narrative for your warband.

When I played Lizardmen my Saurus hero got Strongman and became a killing machine, and he easily could have killed my leader, however fluff wise he would never think about it. Also my leader got pretty good spells, and skills that help manipulate my exploration rolls. So a fight for leader wouldn’t make sense.

If I were to write-up rules for the a fight for power then I would allow them to fight, it would end if someone got stunned, or if they were knocked-down and failed a leadership test using the models own leadership. If either character got taken OOA then they would have to role on the serious wounds chart. I wouldn't allow the base skill choices change the only change I would allow would be that the old leader loses the Leader Skill and the new leader gains it. I would say that any of the leader only skills that the old leader had won't work as long as the new leader is active, but if they were in a battle and the new leader was OOA, and the new leader took over then he would be able to use the leader only skills.

I would also suggest the house rule that all LGT would be able to take 2 skill classes that are available to any of the heroes, and their racial/special skills, humans would be allowed a 3rd skill group if they do not have any special skills available.
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PostSubject: Re: Weak Leader issues...   Mon 14 Jun 2010 - 11:29

I have generally not felt that leaders were underpowered. I have had a few who seemed to underperform in terms of earning experience, but that happens sometimes.

If you want a little more variety with the leaders, but don't want to bend the rules too much, you could start all leaders with one additional roll on the advancement table. You could even say all leaders start with 24 experience, and roll the advance they receive at 24 e.p. (I don't think there are any captains that start with anything besides 20 experience).
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PostSubject: Re: Weak Leader issues...   Mon 14 Jun 2010 - 15:48

I really do like the premise that the leader can be overthrown, especially for the brute force type of war bands. This makes perfect sense.

The exact mechanics could be something of debate, but I dont think that it should be without a cost.

For those war bands that rule through other means, a different mechanism would seem appropriate, but I am not sure what you could make it. Maybe a test of fate, or luck, or a game of chess. Base it around a leadership dice off, allowing the current leader re-rolls or extra dice because he has the leadership ability etc. I would really have to research and think about it.

I also agree, that other than the leadership skill switching skill trees and or deactivating skills just doesn't make much sense. I could understand certain leader based skill that might only apply if you were a leader but that would be the extent of it.

I was looking at a copy of my old Warhammer role playing, and I really liked the class progressions, modifying this for leaders in Mordheim might be fun, but at the end of the day it would basically have the same results of just allowing the Leader to roll his skill ups vs. having them pre determined for them.

That being said. I think using the chart that was posted earlier where the number of skill ups was figured out would be the way to go, yeah its not the same for each leader, but that is just the nature of the game.
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PostSubject: Re: Weak Leader issues...   Tue 22 Jun 2010 - 13:24

Hmm, have played against orcs numerous times, and never had any complaints about the leader. I guess it depends on your point of view, and how the die rolls go when advancing.

I like the greenskins for the most part the way they are. My biggest beef with them is they do NOT have access to Heavy Armour and only goblins have access to clubs... both easily remedied. Also, fanatics suck...which is a damn shame. My group likes to allow heavy armour to orcs (not goblins), and also clubs. We also prefer animosity by henchmen group (instead of individual models) as it seriously bogs the game down in our opinion once the warband gets maxed out. Haven't worked out a change to fanatics to make them viable, if that's even possible.
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PostSubject: Re: Weak Leader issues...   Tue 22 Jun 2010 - 14:45

I also had some serious thought if we should allow orcs to wear heavy armor. But I'm not sure if this can be justified balancewise. Heavy armor combined with a warbandsize of 20+ and full access to shooting skills might be too strong.
But in any way a worthwile thought.

btw. Orcs may use clubs indeed, this had been corrected by an errata some years ago...
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PostSubject: Re: Weak Leader issues...   Tue 22 Jun 2010 - 20:06

Dahag wrote:
I also had some serious thought if we should allow orcs to wear heavy armor. But I'm not sure if this can be justified balancewise. Heavy armor combined with a warbandsize of 20+ and full access to shooting skills might be too strong.
But in any way a worthwile thought.

btw. Orcs may use clubs indeed, this had been corrected by an errata some years ago...

Well as far as armour goes, you only get 3 heroes you'd want to equip heavy armour on (not counting the shaman). Orc boyz could get it too, sure, but that's putting you at 75gc for 1 henchman orc not counting weapon costs. It's pretty cost prohibitive for a model that dies on a 1 or 2, unless you have a super easy way of making tons of cash.
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PostSubject: Re: Weak Leader issues...   Wed 23 Jun 2010 - 1:09

well, in the long term you have 6 heroes so up to 5 heavy armours for them, if you have a shaman.

but you're right, in the vanilla rules heavy armour is far too expensive, especially for henchmen.

so we houseruled lowered prices for armour in our group (LA: 10gc, HA: 20gc).

we'll see if they make the difference i hope for...

on the other hand: orcs have the "well ard" skill which improves their armour save +1. that helps to mitigate not wearing heavy armour...


but back to the original topic:

why not combining the two systems?

1)start with "youngblood" stats (or analogue ones) and roll for every advance they should have had until 20 exp.

2)and if you still think that leader is not a worthy role model to his companions, there is still the possibility to charge him in a internal duel, which i also find very fluffy btw (depending on the warband type, that is).

I now also agree to leave the skill tables as they are granted to the heroes with the exception of "leader only"-skills.

one "problem" i still see is that one would have to determine these starting values for each warband, which is quite a task.

further, i wonder if vampires should be excluded from this "rolling past advances"-rule.
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PostSubject: Re: Weak Leader issues...   Wed 23 Jun 2010 - 14:33

I always liked the idea of orc heroes possibly challenging the boss. I was considering if they caught up or eclipsed the orc boss in xp, but that's fairly unlikely (unless the boss is never in combat and NEVER gets any extra xp from objectives and such)

One possibility we might try just for fun/fluff: If a Big `Un (or even an LGT orc boy) gets enough raises to match the boss in Strength, Toughness, AND Leadership on his stat line, he will challenge the boss before the next battle (probably in a manner similar to getting a Pit Fight result on the injury chart). If he wins, he swaps places with the old boss. They swap titles, and the Leader skill. The old boss loses a point of Leadership to reflect his shame.
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PostSubject: Re: Weak Leader issues...   Thu 24 Jun 2010 - 14:56

We let orc heroes take heavy armor. Just too orcy not to allow (and there are too many great heavily armored orc models).
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PostSubject: Re: Weak Leader issues...   Thu 24 Jun 2010 - 15:10

I think what our group may be thinking now is just a simplistic: Roll one advancement at the start of the campaign.

...This gives your hero that little bump he needs.
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PostSubject: Re: Weak Leader issues...   Fri 25 Jun 2010 - 10:03

I never buy armor, I usually find it. The only exception is shields, I'll usually buy them for my guys with Spears.
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