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Figgy
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PostSubject: Weak Leader issues...   Sat 5 Jun 2010 - 10:53

I keep running into the same problem with all the warbands I have...My big Orc Warboss, which is the most impressive model I have, is usually the weakest orc on the heroes roster after a few games. The promoted henchmen and Big'uns always out-do him because of the rate they gain experience....

So I have been trying to think of a fair and balanced way to make each warband's leader actually worth something and be a proper leader. Aside from the Vamp I guess, he always rocks.

I have been unable to come up with anything worthwhile...thoughts?
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PostSubject: Re: Weak Leader issues...   Sat 5 Jun 2010 - 12:22

Don't give them twenty starting exp, or get them killed and replace them.
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PostSubject: Re: Weak Leader issues...   Sat 5 Jun 2010 - 13:51

Well, I say one of the differences is that you cannot allocate the level ups as you want.

Say that you get 20 Xp, and may level up your leader as you see fit, accordingly, just as if it were a hero who got 20xp after a fight (it happened once, with an underdog Possessed... I think he got well over a dozen xp points Razz )

One thing though, as you MUST have the leader skill, the first level gives that one, and may not be decided.

This way, your warrior will be tailor made by you, and will be powerful enough to compete with the other heroes. Hm... I actually think I might go ahead and suggest that when we begin our next campaign Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Weak Leader issues...   Sat 5 Jun 2010 - 14:01

My problem is never that the Leader gains experience slowly especially in relation to Big'uns (who are screwed by their own starting experience.) My issue is my rolls versus my opponents. My leader is maxed in Ld and I. Everybody else is a good killer in one way or another. Playtable's leader just shot 2 or 3 of my Smugglers OOA in our last game. MY leader didn't fall down. And would have kept us fighting after half the band was gone, but what's the point?

Due to the extra experience you gain from wins the leader should advance at a faster rate than his peers. (If the bastard can score kills...)
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Opheliate
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PostSubject: Re: Weak Leader issues...   Sat 5 Jun 2010 - 22:49

Then it seems it is just a coincidence. I mean, I always get Ld and I rolls for my leader too! That is such a bitch-slap in the face, as when he FINALLY levels up, you get crap results.

Mind you, Initiative is very good, IMO, as it also allows you to strike first in combat, something that is very hande against tough opponents with more than one W. However, Leader starts with 4, which is above average, a 5 is more tan most will ever have (unless theyre leaders!)

But seriously though, start them out as a normal-stat human (M:4 WS:3 BS:3 S:3 T:3 W:1 I:3 A:1 Ld:7) then level them up to 20 xp. Also, the fact that the leader skill is given despite any level or such (as it is if someone else becomes leader), I have re-valuated my opinion that the leader skills should count for one of the level gained, as it rightly should NOT.

Orc leader shoulc start out as normal orc stats, and then level up accordingly.

This way, you can get some interesting skills to start as well! If you want to make a Mareinburg Merchant you can, with a (hopefully) decent combat ability, but some starting academy skills, perhaps? Anyway, the ability to more be able to tailor your leaders skills is interesting.
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PostSubject: Re: Weak Leader issues...   Sun 6 Jun 2010 - 6:37

For mercenaries, I don't think they would start at normal stats, but rather with youngblood stats. Similarly, I think that is why Champions start at 8 xp - they started with Youngblood stats and the xp they earned is how they got to where they are.

Remember too, that some heroes are worth keeping because of the skills they have access to. TLGT heroes will only ever have access to two skill lists, + their racial if you use that interpretation.
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PostSubject: Re: Weak Leader issues...   Sun 6 Jun 2010 - 9:05

I wrote a rules draft (more like a few bullet points) for Necromunda that follows Opheliate's idea, but you would actually play out their history.

Basically each player would start with a Juve (that games version of a youngblood) and through a series of narrative life path flow-charts and mini-games, would end up with a characterful leader who may have access to a rare item or a few injuries.

The problem with doing this for Mordheim would be that I would have to write a different background for each
warband!! Shocked

EDITS: Twice to correct the spelling of Opheliate's name!
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Opheliate
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PostSubject: Re: Weak Leader issues...   Sun 6 Jun 2010 - 9:57

Ha ha my name is strange, dunno how I came up with it Razz

Dubstyles: I really do like the idea though. It might be a little too much... roleplaying game (a'la D&D), but in a campaign, I seriously think it would be... wait for it... AWESOME Very Happy

Do you still have some draft for the charts you made for Necromunda? It would be cool just to get an idea of it.
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PostSubject: Re: Weak Leader issues...   Sun 6 Jun 2010 - 10:53

I found the old file, it is just a list of ideas that are specific to that game system.

Right now i am working on an analysis of the Mordheim warbands and how their leaders relate to their youngblood types. I am not counting "Leader" as an advance because of your very good point.


This is my work so far:
googls doc

Human warbands seem to have 8 advances, or 7 and a special rule like wizard or merc variation bonus. Odd warbands don't fit the mold so much.

For orcs i had to use the young'un stats from the black orc list
Dwarfs have fewer advances than 8 compared to beardlings of the same exp level
Skink Priests have fewer advances than 8 compared to braves of the same exp level
Undead have no comparison so i devalued the leader stats arbitrarily by 8 levels

It looks like some warbands will simply have shorter lifepaths to reflect these oddities. But Lizardmen and Dwarfs in particular have so many warband-wide special rules it is hard to evaluate them just on stats alone!
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Opheliate
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PostSubject: Re: Weak Leader issues...   Sun 6 Jun 2010 - 11:01

hm, it says I dont have access to the google doc.
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Figgy
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PostSubject: Re: Weak Leader issues...   Sun 6 Jun 2010 - 17:51

yeah you gotta make a gmail account first.
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Opheliate
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PostSubject: Re: Weak Leader issues...   Sun 6 Jun 2010 - 21:39

yeah, I've got one and is always logged on. It seems that is the problem (it says my accound doesnt have access or some such Razz)
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PostSubject: Re: Weak Leader issues...   Mon 7 Jun 2010 - 2:23

Same here... I do have an account, but I am not granted access to the document.
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PostSubject: Re: Weak Leader issues...   Mon 7 Jun 2010 - 8:48

I tried it as well and it stated that I did not have access to the document. It said that I could request access so I did.
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PostSubject: Re: Weak Leader issues...   Mon 7 Jun 2010 - 9:28

Me too Smile
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Figgy
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PostSubject: Re: Weak Leader issues...   Mon 7 Jun 2010 - 15:13

i'll call Dubstyles and tell him to fix it....heh
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PostSubject: Re: Weak Leader issues...   Tue 8 Jun 2010 - 20:41

I too have also thought about doing this for our campaign. I often look and try to figure out ..what makes this guy so special.

And as far as the leader skill goes I also agree. I mean if your current leader dies the next dude gets it for free there is no exp. involved at all. I keep thinking, damn I wish I could fire this guy, or try to get him killed.

Then I thought ..what about a...wait for it ...House rule!

"Fight for Control" or "Leader of the Pack" type of rule.

You could have one of your heros challenge your leader to a duel or arena match etc. if he wins he becomes the new leader. The leader would then have to relinquish the leader skill and become a regular hero stripped of all previous leader perks, or leave the warband.

If the hero loses, he misses the next two games or make two injury rolls, or miss the next game and an injury roll or some such combination.
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PostSubject: Re: Weak Leader issues...   Tue 8 Jun 2010 - 20:58

They had this sort of thing in Necromunda. If a ganger ever got higher leadership than the leader then you had a leadership challenge (Delaque challenged on equal).

1-2 Knife fight 3-4 gun fight, 5 no challenge this time, 6 Eternally loyal.

Knife fight: Fight with only a knife - no other weapons or equipment.
Gun fight: Fight will all weapons and equipment
No challenge this time, but will next point of Ld.
Eternally loyal - never challenge.

Loser of the fight leaves the warband.

The thing about losing your leader is that you also often lose the only warband member that has access to Academic skills, and often his replacement will have access to fewer skill lists.
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PostSubject: Re: Weak Leader issues...   Tue 8 Jun 2010 - 21:44

Yes! Leadership challenges in necromunda were so much fun, i lost 2 leaders to infighting in my backstabbing delaque gang! It was fun when the ousted leader became a hired gun though!


But back to Mordheim...

Sorry i forgot to publish it... http://docs.google.com/View?id=dg9qmfbj_10gnmgc7hp

Coming up with a workable structure and flavor text is proving difficult for the Empire... i can't even begin to think of other warbands! But i'll keep you guys updated on my progress.

I should point out that i my goal is to have leaders with the same amount of advances they would normally have, and start at leadership 20 like normal Lifepaths might not be the best way to make leaders more powerful, but rather more varied instead.

I though of a different house rule for making leaders a little more interesting, i'll present that soon enough... Wink


Last edited by Pathfinder Dubstyles on Tue 8 Jun 2010 - 21:50; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : added more thoughts)
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PostSubject: Re: Weak Leader issues...   Tue 8 Jun 2010 - 23:34

Oh yeah, I remember the Necromunda rule, I guess you could adapt something like that.

I decided to try my hand at a little house rule ...


Change in management (proposed Change)

~It seems that quite often that the heroes of a war band surpass the abilities of the leadership. Currently there is no way to keep a war band intact and voluntarily replace the existing leader. If the leader is the most powerful, most experienced member then he should be able to prove it… right?

Special Rule - Challenge of power. If it comes to pass that a particular hero thinks he has what it takes to be the new boss, then he can throw down the gauntlet and challenge the current leader. This plays out as an organized duel or a drunken bar room brawl or a blade to the back in the middle of the night the end results will be the same.

The challenge will happen before the treasure phase of campaign play. As a result neither the hero nor the leader are able to roll a die for wyrd stones gathered as they are too busy preparing for the duel or recovering from the brawl. Instead, the player sets both the hero and the leader aside and they duke it out. (The player can have someone else i.e. a rival player may roll for the hero if they desire, and like any other campaign rolls should be done in the presence of another player.)

Roll a D6+I for the both the hero and leader. The highest roll gets to strike first. Work out hand to hand combat as you would for a normal game of Mordheim. The results of this fight will determine the new war band leader!

And the winner is ….

If the Leader wins the fight, he maintains his position, and no further attempts can be made on his position until the next campaign phase.

The hero must miss the next game, and immediately roll once on the hero injury chart.



If the Hero wins he immediately becomes the new war band leader and gains the leadership skill.

The now ex-leader may either leave the war band wandering off on his own; permanently remove the ex-leader from the roster.

Or may agree to accept his lot in life and acknowledge the new leader and step down, taking his place as a hero in the war band on the condition that he may NEVER challenge the new leader.

The now ex-leader must miss the next game, and immediately roll once on the hero injury chart.
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PostSubject: Re: Weak Leader issues...   Wed 9 Jun 2010 - 4:03

We sometimes play campaigns where you make advance rolls for your starting exp. That means a Captain with 20exp gets to roll a fair few times. Its a different and controvertial way of playing but it is fun!
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PostSubject: Re: Weak Leader issues...   Wed 9 Jun 2010 - 5:07

Do you start them rolling from youngblood stats or do you start them from leader stats?
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PostSubject: Re: Weak Leader issues...   Wed 9 Jun 2010 - 7:16

well if you start them at youngblood stats, they would have 8 advances by the time they reach 20xp. If you compare the captain to the youngblood, he has 7 advances. Other things to take into consideration are the warbands access to weapons and provincial special rules. That document i shared is simply an analysis of a few warbands along these lines of thinking.
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PostSubject: Re: Weak Leader issues...   Thu 10 Jun 2010 - 14:19

I like the Usurpation Battle House Rule of HornedRat. But I see a major problem with the skill trees:

What happens to them? Does the new Leader gain new Skill trees, which only the Leader has access to (as Speed Skills for Orcs)?

I'd suggest the following:

A usurped Leader loses all Skills and Skill Trees that only a Leader can have access to (the "Leader Skill" included of course).

A new Captain gains all Skill Trees that can be accessed by a Leader. If he later becomes usurped himself, he also loses all Skills and Skill Trees that are only accessible by the Leader.

and so forth.

--------------------------------

I'd like to make an example to clearify what i mean:

Say, a Orc Leader has "da cunning plan", "sprint", and "mighty blow".

The usurpator is a promoted Orc Boy henchman and he had chosen Strength and Combat as his two Skill Trees.

In case of a successful usurpation, the hero would gain the "leader skill", access to speed skills, keeping all skills (/skillclasses).

The usurpated leader loses access to speed skills and all speed skills he gained so far. He also loses "da cunning plan" as only leaders may have that skill. but he may keep "mighty blow" because other heroes have access to strength skills also.


----------------------------------

The question is, if the new leader "inherits" the skills lost by the leader. I'd say no, i guess...

What do you think of this solution? Or do you propose other solutions?
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PostSubject: Re: Weak Leader issues...   Thu 10 Jun 2010 - 15:28

You bring up a good point with that...good catch.

This is why I like Dubstyles 'life tree' idea...I want to see where this goes.
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