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The Ultra-Mega Bob
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PostSubject: Handguns.   Wed 26 May 2010 - 12:53

I can't shake the feeling that I'll never really see a handgun used in our group (due mostly to the reloading rule I think) and I wondered if anyone had any house rules or fixes to make them more attractive.

It just seems like in the vanilla rules the crossbow has them beat every time, with better long & short range, and no reloading. Even in the Dwarf Treasure Hunter warband I struggle to think of reasons to take them with Thunderers (which seems a bit silly since they get their name from using handguns...) Fair enough they suggest a 20% reduction of GC, but I still don't really feel that works very well considering you then get misfires on an already poor weapon. The upside is that they naturally have armour piercing, but wait, this is Mordheim- hardly anyone uses armour...

I love the look of models with Handguns, and there is an abundance of amazing historical miniatures all armed with such weapons, so it seems a shame that they get left out.

So my question is:
What do you and your gaming group do to make taking these weapons workable, and more likely to see table play?
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RationalLemming
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PostSubject: Re: Handguns.   Wed 26 May 2010 - 12:56

Play the Gunnery School of Nuln warband. Wink
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WarbossKurgan
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PostSubject: Re: Handguns.   Wed 26 May 2010 - 13:04

Use them as "Counts As" crossbows!
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Von Kurst
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PostSubject: Re: Handguns.   Wed 26 May 2010 - 13:09

Lots of discussion here--
http://boringmordheimforum.forumieren.com/rules-and-gameplay-f1/w22-house-rules-t3608.htm

Aside from changing the rules themselves, I've had great fun playing the warbands that have no access to crossbows but can take handguns. (Araby Smugglers, Araby Nomads come to mind. Kislevites before the rules clarification.) The gunners lay down devastating volleys every other turn and light archers keep the enemy back while they reload.
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PostSubject: Re: Handguns.   Wed 26 May 2010 - 13:31

Yeah, crossbows all the way for me.

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The Ultra-Mega Bob
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PostSubject: Re: Handguns.   Wed 26 May 2010 - 13:37

Thanks for the replies, there's a lot more interesting discussion on it than I'd previously found. I think I'll put some of the changes to my playing group next time we meet up (which isn't as often as I'd like).
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PostSubject: Re: Handguns.   Wed 26 May 2010 - 16:05

Something our group keeps thinking about fiddling with, but have never gotten around too.
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PostSubject: Re: Handguns.   Wed 26 May 2010 - 16:51

Could just take the reloading rule out entirely. Ta da now just convince your enemies to buy armor and it'll totally be worth taking handguns.
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PostSubject: Re: Handguns.   Wed 26 May 2010 - 20:21

We house rule that they give +1 to injury; not a big difference, but makes them slightly different from say crossbow. If you take the reloading rule out, they're quite close to a crossbow, I think it better to give them some new pro's... either the +1 to injury, or a S5 perhaps...
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PostSubject: Re: Handguns.   Wed 26 May 2010 - 21:32

I like the idea of +1 to injury....and we houserule shields give you +2 armor in CC so people tend to stack armor as well... They are okay, still not good enough - but better.
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PostSubject: Re: Handguns.   Wed 26 May 2010 - 22:39

The Ultra-Mega Bob wrote:
I can't shake the feeling that I'll never really see a handgun used in our group (due mostly to the reloading rule I think) and I wondered if anyone had any house rules or fixes to make them more attractive.
We have removed "Prepare shot" and given handguns (and Hochland long rifles) "Concussion", we also use the blackpowder misfire chart (and the recommended discount at 20% for doing so).This have made handguns a much more useful weapon, while still keeping it separate from the crossbow.
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PostSubject: Re: Handguns.   Thu 27 May 2010 - 2:29

In our group Handguns and Hunting Rifles can roll two dice for injury, choosing the highest.
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PostSubject: Re: Handguns.   Thu 27 May 2010 - 17:21

You mean the KD/Stun/OOA roll, Lord O? That seems to make them too powerful... every hit is in effect a critical. Or are you talking about the roll to see if you wound?

Interesting to see the suggestions. I am thinking about adding the Concussion rule, and maybe making them STR 5 at short range, but keeping the cost and the reload rules the same.
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PostSubject: Re: Handguns.   Thu 27 May 2010 - 20:36

What do you mean by "every hit is in effect a critical"? You still crit only on a 6..

Our first attempt on fixing handguns was giving them 2 dice for the injury roll (like Lord 0).
While this sounds pretty strong it is just 55% to OOA compared to 50% when using +1 on injury rolls.

Currently we play the following two rules for Handguns:
Terrifying: If the attack hits, the target must take an all alone test at the end of the current phase if there are no friendly models within 6" (knocked down, stunned or fleeing friends do not count).
Lethal: The attack gains +1 to the injury roll.

This makes handguns more powerfull while keeping it different from the crossbow. I would not recommend dropping the prepared shot rule since the weapons become pretty equivalent then..
The Terriying special rule rarely takes effect since there is usually a freindly model around. But it adds the pschological factor of not wanting to spread too thinly - which makes the handgun a nice comibation with the blunderbuss. Gogo blackpowder!
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WarbossKurgan
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PostSubject: Re: Handguns.   Thu 27 May 2010 - 20:57

REminenz wrote:
What do you mean by "every hit is in effect a critical"? You still crit only on a 6.
The lowest critical is two injury dice.
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hero
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PostSubject: Re: Handguns.   Thu 27 May 2010 - 23:08

I just can't get with the keeping prepared shot to maintain difference argument. Sure removing it makes them more similar, but only so much as axes and clubs, and what you get is two viable weapons where at first you had one.
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PostSubject: Re: Handguns.   Fri 28 May 2010 - 1:14

In my group we have been using the double roll thing for months now and handguns have *still* not displaced crossbows as the weapon of choice. Crossbows are cheaper, longer range, and can fire twice. At least now though we sometimes see the occasional handgunner turn up from time to time rather than never because people will sometimes take one or two of them to help punch through armour. To be honest, I am happy to leave them there.

Until you get hunter you can always just take two handguns and fire them alternately. Takes up both your weapon slots though, and is quite expensive. Generally a Dwarf or Marienburger trick.
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The Ultra-Mega Bob
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PostSubject: Re: Handguns.   Fri 28 May 2010 - 2:24

I do like the extra dice for Injury rolls.

Whilst I like the image of the 'Terrifying' rule, I really don't think it should be a blanket statement, as even though black powder is very rare, there are wizards throwing around things just as startling- fireballs, volleys of magic arrows, warp-fire, etc. and no one so much as blinks, let alone runs away. I'd imagine it working on halflings and goblins - or anyone with Stupidity - but not seasoned warriors.

I think that reducing the cost by 20% and adding the dice to Injury rolls should be cool. I'll include the misfires, but might simplify them, so that 1-3 it cant fire for the rest of the game, 4-6 miss an extra turn to reload. I never liked the thought of weapons blowing up- it makes Long Rifles a risky proposition if you could lose the 200gc investment AND lose a hero.
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PostSubject: Re: Handguns.   Fri 28 May 2010 - 5:36

I've had a campaign with them at S5 and 25GC. A Kislev warband took 3 Streltsi with the combo with halberds and did quite well.
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PostSubject: Re: Handguns.   Fri 28 May 2010 - 10:30

Well I agree that you don't want the hand gun to be more common than say the crossbow, rather a weapon that works well in certain situations, say against heavy armoured opponents, or opponents with high T...
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PostSubject: Re: Handguns.   Fri 28 May 2010 - 16:39

Am I the only one who thinks handguns are good as they are?
In our current campaign (six games running as of yet), I play Marienburgers. My first henchmen group was a group of marksmen with handguns. yeah, a little less range, and I can only fire every other turn, but with three henchmen, I can actually fire every turn. There, problem solved. Two fire in onr turn, and as they reload, the other one can shoot at new targets or act as a threat, and vice versa.

Also, heroes armed with handguns (I got Lads got talent with a marsman), I can give him Superios Blackpowder! The crossbow has NO misc item that makes it better. S5 (-2 As) + -2 more As. More than enough to take out a Mutant with Chaos Armour (that happened to me), or in theory kill a dwarf with grom armour in a single shot. A crossbow negates 1 as, so a Grom-armour dwarf still gets a 4+ Save with a shield against a Crossbow. Against a handgun it is at best 6+ (none at all with Superios Blackpowder).

This also works against mounted models, taking them out quickly. Also, in a long campaign, armours do tend to be used more often. My rifle and pistol wielding marienburgers are a constat source of fear and respect form the other teams Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Handguns.   Fri 28 May 2010 - 17:02

If we saw more heavily armored models around, the handguns would probably be more tempting. Indeed, since we have adopted the additional +1 for shields in close combat, we are seeing more shields, which appears to be making light armor more common (but not, that I can tell, heavy armor). Given the cost, and the firing every other turn thing, handguns really do seem understrength to me. If heavily armored models were more common, we might see a few - even then, I suspect, not many.

Superior Blackpowder is expensive, and unless I am misremembering has to be purchased before every game. And while three guys with hand guns can keep up a 2/1/2/1 shooting routine, the same three guys with crossbows could be firing 3/3/3/3...

I still tend toward more minor tweaks, though, and feel the double injury dice take the best is too powerful (if I was playing in a campaign with that rule, I'd equip everyone I could with handguns as soon as I could afford it!).
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PostSubject: Re: Handguns.   Sat 29 May 2010 - 4:33

Maybe just take away the long range penalty, then? make it more "snipey" Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Handguns.   Sat 29 May 2010 - 6:11

Opheliate wrote:
Am I the only one who thinks handguns are good as they are?
In a word? Yes .

Opheliate wrote:
Two fire in onr turn, and as they reload, the other one can shoot at new targets or act as a threat, and vice versa.
As has already been pointed out, for 30 less gold you could instead have 3 henchmen putting out 3 shots every round at a longer range. Some shots is better than no shots, even if they are only -1 to the armour save.

Opheliate wrote:
I can give [the handgun hero] Superios Blackpowder! The crossbow has NO misc item that makes it better.
Except for Dark Venom. It is pretty much the same as Superior Black Powder only instead of being Rare 11 like SPB, it is only Rare 8. Undead are immune to poison, but since they are such a lackluster warband, no one here uses them anyway.

Opheliate wrote:
S5 (-2 As) + -2 more As. More than enough to take out a Mutant with Chaos Armour (that happened to me), or in theory kill a dwarf with grom armour in a single shot. A crossbow negates 1 as, so a Grom-armour dwarf still gets a 4+ Save with a shield against a Crossbow. Against a handgun it is at best 6+ (none at all with Superios Blackpowder).
The thing is, you have a choice between one shot with no armour save vs two shots with a 6+ armour save (assuming both SBP and Dark Venom). I know which I would prefer.

mweaver wrote:
if I was playing in a campaign with that rule, I'd equip everyone I could with handguns as soon as I could afford it!.
You would be alone in that in our group then Smile. The two injury dice sounds good, but is still not as good as two shots that do two actual wounds. Certainly not as good as two shots doing two actual wounds hitting at >24-30". Well, that has been our experience anyway.
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PostSubject: Re: Handguns.   Sat 29 May 2010 - 8:39

I still think it isnt TERRIBLY unbalanced. I am willing to make the sacrifice to increase the fluff. Also, IMO, the arguments I stated holds for me.

Also, can you coat arrows/bolts in poison? Throwing knives too?
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