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 Help Starting Dwarves?

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Benkei
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PostSubject: Re: Help Starting Dwarves?   Sun 9 May 2010 - 16:41

alveiz wrote:
Nastyogre wrote:
AHH I missed the maxed attack stat, but that's hardly a given. Still... 9 is a bit less than 17.
Indeed I made a mistake thinking they would be affected by frenzy.
The 17 followed the next formula = (4(base maxed)x2(frenzy)x2(ferocious charge) +1(additional hand weapon)).

Otherways, we will make a house rule for that, how come a slayer cannot be frenzied by eating mad caps or hatred vs orcs?.

Anyway, doubling a double nets a triple in WH, so it would be 4 (base) + 4 (Frenzy) + 4 (Ferocius Charge) + 1 (AHW) = 13 attacks

Also, Dwarf warbands can't hire a Slayer Hired Sword
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PostSubject: Re: Help Starting Dwarves?   Sun 9 May 2010 - 17:59

Benkei wrote:
Also, Dwarf warbands can't hire a Slayer Hired Sword
What makes you think that?
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PostSubject: Re: Help Starting Dwarves?   Sun 9 May 2010 - 18:45

I prefer better heroes too, but you basically mitigate a dwarf weakness (low numbers) and somewhat mitigate their slow movement because you can split into 2 large groups and "Hammer and Anvil" your opponent.

I don't do this anymore. I think dwarves are plenty good without it. I liken this tactic to having a starting skaven or Orc warband of 16-20 and just swamping your enemis with squig, goblins or giant rats. Its a legit, albeit cheap strategy.
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PostSubject: Re: Help Starting Dwarves?   Sun 9 May 2010 - 21:27

Benkei, as noted above troll slayers cannot be subject to Frenzy:

Deathwish: Troll Slayers seek an honourable death in combat. They are completely immune to all psychology and never need to test if fighting alone. [emphasis added].

So, you are back to nine - all of which are at -1 to hit. And, incidentally, only when he charges, which is a bit of a bummer since he will be the chargee more frequently than the charger. The troll slayer is a tough little fellow once he earns some improvements, but he is not the nastiest thing out there.
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PostSubject: Re: Help Starting Dwarves?   Sun 9 May 2010 - 22:24

Reading as written you get no Troll Slayer, that's true. But the Troll Slayer rules predate the existence of dwarfs by roughly 6 months. (sort of, by publishing date but the dwarves were known to be in the works during development)

GW never revisited the original rulebook and what hired swords can be used by newer warbands. Some of the later warbands made reference to what hired swords could be used, but this practice didn't start until after the publication of the dwarves.

The old specialist games forum mods and the mods of the yahoo mordheim groups (mostly the same people) made the statement that certain things have to be approached sensibly. Hired swords are one of those areas. I personally asked that question and received the answer that yes, treasure hunters can hire troll slayers.

If you always want to play RAW (read as written) the troll slayer cannot be hired by any warband save Mercs and Witch Hunters. If you want to play RAI (read as intended) you have to take some queues from later warbands and hired swords and see who can be hired by whom.

Frankly, this is one of the areas GW should have examined when they published thier Rules review and Living Rule Book but never did.
Unofficial Master Hired swords lists exist, I have one. But its not published by GW.
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PostSubject: Re: Help Starting Dwarves?   Sun 9 May 2010 - 23:44

Citizen Sade wrote:
Benkei wrote:
Also, Dwarf warbands can't hire a Slayer Hired Sword
What makes you think that?

The fact that Troll Slayer can only be hired by Mercs and Witch Hunters. Nobody can tell me "RAI" wants the Dwarves hiring more Slayers, no more that they can tell me they should be able to hire Elves.

mweaver wrote:
Benkei, as noted above troll slayers cannot be subject
to Frenzy:

You mean like i myself stated several post back? what i meant was, even if Slayers could be Frenzied, they would only get 13 attacks; also, Slayers should be charging, is not hard at all if you just use your henchmen as a screen and countercharge with the Slayers. IMO, henchman in Mordheim are born to die so the heroes can kill things and get xp.


Last edited by Benkei on Mon 10 May 2010 - 0:59; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Help Starting Dwarves?   Mon 10 May 2010 - 0:22

Benkei wrote:
Citizen Sade wrote:
Benkei wrote:
Also, Dwarf warbands can't hire a Slayer Hired Sword
What makes you think that?

The fact that Troll Slayer can only be hired by Mercs and Witch Hunters. Nobody can tell me "RAI" wants the Dwarves hiring more Slayers ...
Written before the Dwarf Treasure Hunters warband was created.

Benkei wrote:
... no more that they can tell me they should be able to hire Elves.
Specifically covered by their "grudgebearers" rule ...
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PostSubject: Re: Help Starting Dwarves?   Mon 10 May 2010 - 0:57

Citizen Sade wrote:

Written before the Dwarf Treasure Hunters warband was created.

Still doesn't make it legit to hire a Slayer for a warband that can't hire him. You can house rule it that way, but it's just that, a house rule, and you can't give advice for other players based on your house rules. Else, i could tell the OP "you should really hire a Freelancer, because him being mounted will help alleviate your speed problems" because, alas, Dwarves can't hire Freelancers neither. You can still hire a Roadwarden or Highwayman.

Quote :

Benkei wrote:
... no more that they can tell me they should be able to hire Elves.
Specifically covered by their "grudgebearers" rule ...

No more that they can tell me Orcs should be able to hire Slayers too, as they also came later. There is a reason Slayers are not hirable by "every warband except..." like most HS are.
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PostSubject: Re: Help Starting Dwarves?   Mon 10 May 2010 - 5:35

"You mean like i myself stated several post back? what i meant was, even if Slayers could be Frenzied, they would only get 13 attacks;"

Ah, didn't realize you were talking hypothetically.

Holding the slayers back to counter-charge would increase their chance of a charge, true. It also seems very uncharacteristic for them. But I play role-playing games more than wargames, and that fact sometimes influences how I approach wargames.
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PostSubject: Re: Help Starting Dwarves?   Mon 10 May 2010 - 5:37

Even if you could hire a slayer hired sword, why would you want to? Normally you hire HS who bring skills and abilities otherwise missing or weak in your band. Me, I'd go for a wizard with a teleport spell as my first choice.

However, the who-can-hire-who rules did seem to be mainly based on historical issues, rather than game balance. So, logically, it makes sense that dwarves could hire a slayer HS, but not an orc.
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PostSubject: Re: Help Starting Dwarves?   Mon 10 May 2010 - 5:45

Benkei wrote:
There is a reason Slayers are not hirable by "every warband except..." like most HS are.
Yes, there is. The issue is whether this is down to GW's intention, as you seem to believe, or their sloppiness.
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PostSubject: Re: Help Starting Dwarves?   Fri 14 May 2010 - 12:59

When I start my Dwarf Bands, I usually hire the Tilean Marksman. His upkeep is cheap and comes with good skills starting. He provides my shooting cover. I put him up high as quickly as I can to see most of the table. After a game or two, I get Nicodemus. His upkeep is a Wyrdstone Shard, which the Dwarves get a free one each game. Kind of makes him cheap.
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PostSubject: Re: Help Starting Dwarves?   Fri 14 May 2010 - 14:18

"When I start my Dwarf Bands, I usually hire the Tilean Marksman. "

In my experience, the overall best hired sword (for his cost) in the game.
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PostSubject: Re: Help Starting Dwarves?   Fri 14 May 2010 - 16:18

Shadowphx wrote:
When I start my Dwarf Bands, I usually hire the Tilean Marksman. His upkeep is cheap and comes with good skills starting. He provides my shooting cover. I put him up high as quickly as I can to see most of the table. After a game or two, I get Nicodemus. His upkeep is a Wyrdstone Shard, which the Dwarves get a free one each game. Kind of makes him cheap.

Nicodemus is a clever combo with the Dwarf special rule. And the Marksman is even better in a Dwarf warband, as well.
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PostSubject: Re: Help Starting Dwarves?   Fri 14 May 2010 - 16:30

SiliconSicilian wrote:
And the Marksman is even better in a Dwarf warband, as well.
No, he isn't.

MMRRv7 wrote:
Expert Weaponsmith: A Dwarf Engineer is a master of mechanical devices. By using stronger construction materials and time-tested secrets of Dwarf engineering, a Dwarf Engineer can increase the distance the warband’s missile weapons can shoot. Missile weapons bought from the warband’s basic equipment lists have their range increased by 3" for Pistols and 6" for Crossbows and Handguns. Range increases only apply in battles in which the Engineer takes part (though they do apply even if he is yet to enter the battlefield or has already been taken out of action in this battle). He has no effect on the equipment of Hired Swords.
Emphasis mine.
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PostSubject: Re: Help Starting Dwarves?   Sat 15 May 2010 - 3:07

Thanks for all this advice so far. Couple more questions now.
So, Which Hired Swords CAN be taken by Dwarves?
And out of those, which are best to?
Is it better to have 2 weapons or a great weapon on a Slayer?
How would you go about arming the Leader and Engineer?
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PostSubject: Re: Help Starting Dwarves?   Sat 15 May 2010 - 6:21

hendybadger wrote:
Thanks for all this advice so far. Couple more questions now.
So, Which Hired Swords CAN be taken by Dwarves?
And out of those, which are best to?
Is it better to have 2 weapons or a great weapon on a Slayer?
How would you go about arming the Leader and Engineer?
Since the dwarves were released rather late, and (as far as I know) no errata was made to clarify whether or not a hired sword could be acquired by any warband not yet in print when the the hired sword in question was published, it is something of a grey zone if you are concerned about official rules (as far as such exists for a game, long since abandoned by its developers). But a quick fix would be to treat them as mercenaries for the purpose of contracting hired swords, except for elves which they will not hire due to old grudges.

I don't know what would be best, but I would probably go with an Ogre. They are quite good and rather fun to play with; but above all, they look really good together with dwarves. ^^ If you give the Ogre an axe (or two) and make him a beard out of green stuff, he will look almost like another dwarf – just a few sizes larger!

As for weapons on a slayer, that would depend on what rules you play with. Under unmodified vanilla rules 2 one handed weapons will always be better than a two handed weapon (unfortunately); but if you are using the wide spread -1 penalty for
dual wielding fix, both variants will have their pro's and con's (and you will be free to go with what looks best on your model). 
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PostSubject: Re: Help Starting Dwarves?   Sat 15 May 2010 - 7:58

As far as I know we are going for the Normal rules off of the GW site
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PostSubject: Re: Help Starting Dwarves?   Sat 15 May 2010 - 9:27

Well, it's a little unorthodox, but I like Dwarfs as an out-an-out melee warband with hired swords providing some ranged support. The warlock, the Tilean marksman and the Halfling cook are all good choices.

Hero equipment? I like sword (for the parry) and mace (for the stun) to start with and helmets on the noble and engineer. Later on, the swords often get upgraded to Dwarf axes.
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PostSubject: Re: Help Starting Dwarves?   Sat 15 May 2010 - 12:22

Think I will run afew test games before I decide on a build for the campaign
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