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hendybadger
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PostSubject: Help Starting Dwarves?   Fri 7 May 2010 - 12:57

At our gaming club they want to start a Mordheim campaign.
Not played before and going to get some Dwarves to have some test games.

But is there much I need to know about the Treasure Hunters?
What will I need for-
1- Models?
2- Weapon Bits?
3- Hired Swords?
4- a good Warband?

Any thoughts of advice are welcome.
Thanks in advance
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PostSubject: Re: Help Starting Dwarves?   Fri 7 May 2010 - 13:38

I think it depends on how much you want to spend. One of the nice things about Dwarves is since they are all the same race you can usually buy one box and use that as your entire warband. Then they Fancy Paint some to be heroes, or buy Metal Figures to be the Heroes.

There are also dealers on Ebay that sell individual plastic figures, and bits. So if you only want 1 or 2 of the unit you can buy that without purchasing a whole box.

Dwarves are one of the toughest warbands however they slow. So I would suggest that you look into shooting, and horses. Or if you are like of the guys I played with he got the Arby Merchant and got Flying Carpets.
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PostSubject: Re: Help Starting Dwarves?   Fri 7 May 2010 - 13:55

Dwarfs can't ride horses, though (they're "humans only") - though they can get mules.

Aside from that, Rudeboy has it right. They're incredibly tough but slow, so breakthroughs and Wyrdstone Hunts will often be problematic for you as you're not fast enough to compete. The right hired swords can help with this immensely, though. You can shoot the major threats and slowly advance your combat-oriented warriors to where they need to be in most of your games, though.

And a box of plastic Quarellers/Thunderers would be your best starting point, since it comes with pistols(?), axe arms, and LOTS of missile weapons - crossbows generally being the better choice unless your group has a house rule that makes handguns better. 36" range crossbows can be a nightmare to play against!

Good luck!
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PostSubject: Re: Help Starting Dwarves?   Fri 7 May 2010 - 13:57

What about using the Mord Dwarf box set?
And the Mord weapon sprue?
Are they a good idea for someone new to the game?
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PostSubject: Re: Help Starting Dwarves?   Fri 7 May 2010 - 15:54

If you really like the models in the Mordheim dwarf box, then go for it.

But you can save a LOT of money and have more options for customization with the basic plastic Dwarfs.

I have to say that I LOVE the Mordheim Accessory sprue - it has a lot of very useful things on it (but really isn't necessary).
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PostSubject: Re: Help Starting Dwarves?   Fri 7 May 2010 - 16:25

Question: Can Slayers take Dwarf Skills? This would be very useful once you get Master of Blades and 2 dwarf axes.
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PostSubject: Re: Help Starting Dwarves?   Fri 7 May 2010 - 16:33

yes they can take them as well as any other dwarves
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PostSubject: Re: Help Starting Dwarves?   Fri 7 May 2010 - 16:42

By the way, slayer dwarfs have the best combo:
Slayer skill: ferocious charge + Mad cap mushrooms + additional hand weapon + slayer skill monster slayer = killing machine
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PostSubject: Re: Help Starting Dwarves?   Fri 7 May 2010 - 21:41

Slayers have got to be the sickest fighters in Mordheim once they level up a few times.

Since there is hardly any armour, slayers are really not at a disadvantage to anyone else and can also wound others easier than in WHFB. And, if they are able to take Combat/Strength/Special skills, they have access to skills equivalent to armour/ward saves like Step Aside (5+ Ward,) Resilient (imagine most models needing 6's to wound you,) Master of Blades (2 parries with re-rolls), Extra Tough (re-roll injuries), True Grit (less chance of being stunned), Thick Skull (3+ save against stunned,) as well as their natural dwarf toughness and thick skull.

To get the idea of just how ridiculous this is, imagine only 3 skill upgrades. I will take Step Aside, Resilient, and Master of Blades. I will also assume that I have a Rabbit's Foot, Lucky Charm, and 2 Dwarf Axes as these are cheap protective items. Almost every model in the game will require a 4+ to hit the slayer. Assuming the assailant has 2 attacks at S3, 1 attack will hit and the first will be negated by the Lucky Charm 50% of the time. If this fails, the Rabbit's Foot will improve this to 75% (but I would save the Rabbit's Foot for Exploration since your toughness and skills will likely negate any wounds.) Then you will Step-Aside 1/3 of the time. If that fails, you get 2 chances of re-rollable parries (but only need match the result - minimum 75% success.) IF the attacks go through, they will now need 6's to wound which means no critical hits are allowed. Following this, the slayer is very unlikely to have any result but knocked down and will proceed to stand up next turn, most likely, since the attacker will require 6's to wound again. There is less than 0.5% chance for a slayer to drop to a 2A S3 WS4 charger.

Or you can go all-out offensive with their skills as alveiz has given examples of.
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PostSubject: Re: Help Starting Dwarves?   Fri 7 May 2010 - 22:57

There is no reason to do the rabbit's foot/lucky charm thing in your slayers-are-awesome example, SiliconSicilian, since they work the same for everyone.

Similarly, most heroes who aren't spell casters can take combat skills, so Step Aside doesn't doesn't do a lot for your argument that Slayers are uber-powerful.

Resilient isn't at all unique to the dwarves either. Yes, it is nice with a T4 model, agreed, but there are plenty of those around (see Orcs and Beastmen, for examples) so it is hard to say dwarves are the "sickest fighters" around.

What is unique about these dwarf heroes (including the captain) is the Master of Blades + two dwarf axes skill. That combination is indeed effective. But I don't know that it makes a dwarf slayer the "sickest fighter" around.
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PostSubject: Re: Help Starting Dwarves?   Sat 8 May 2010 - 7:11

I only included those things to show that 3 skills and 45 points worth of wargear give this fighter <0.5% chance of taken OOA. Notice that I compared him to his WHFB counterpart which can be taken out with ease. I have only highlighted defensive tactics for an otherwise totally offensive class of hero, thus showing diversity which does not exist for other races to that extent. No hero from any other warband has these defensive abilities without armour. Including these skills does a lot for the discussion.

As per your last example; the dwarf noble, fully armoured with these skills is THE most defensive fighter in the game and can equally dish out pain. I was merely showing that even the slayers are not pushovers in this list.
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PostSubject: Re: Help Starting Dwarves?   Sat 8 May 2010 - 8:22

I insist on this combo for a Dwarf Slayer:
Mad cap mushrooms + Ferocious Charge + 2 Dwarf Axes + Master of Blades + Monster Slayer
On high end you can make him Resilient and give him last of the slayer skills that gave you +1 to hit while charging.
This, combined with the max. attacks will make him the sickiest warrior in Mordheim: 17 attacks that almost everytime will hit on 3+ or 4+, and will always hurt on 4+ or less.
Supposing you are very unlucky on your rolls, you will obtain 6-8 hits from wich almost 3 or 4 will hurt, making him an unstoppable warrior.
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PostSubject: Re: Help Starting Dwarves?   Sat 8 May 2010 - 8:42

Agreed, and with LD 9... it doesn't matter all that much if he goes stupid from the mushrooms.
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PostSubject: Re: Help Starting Dwarves?   Sat 8 May 2010 - 14:37

Slayers are immune to Psych, which makes them immune both to Frenzy and Stupidity, so that's quite illegal
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PostSubject: Re: Help Starting Dwarves?   Sat 8 May 2010 - 15:10

Precisely. You cannot cause a slayer to frenzy. They are immune to all psychology (stupidity included) Its why they have the slayer skills they do. They also don't suffer or benefit from hatred. Which is kind of bizarre but IRC hatred is a psychology so slayers are immune to the dwarf trait "Hates Greenskins." Stinks but slayers would be unstoppable if allowed to benefit form these sorts of things.

Also remember GW's policies on multiplying attacks. In ANY game, not just Mordheim. You multiply only the base attacks. So a model with 1A multiplies to 2 then adds the extra weapon or extra attacks from skills.
You do not ADD the attacks and multiply at the end. Which is what you have to do to get the preposterous number of 17 attacks.

So applying the rules correctly
A Dwarf slayer using Mad cap mushrooms + Ferocious Charge + 2 Dwarf Axes + Master of Blades +
Monster Slayer isn't 17 attacks but 3 at a -1 to hit.

1 base, Mad cap Mushrooms... do nothing at all to him, Ferocious charge double the attacks t 2, 2 dwarf axes gives him three attacks. Master of blades does nothing but allows him to parry, monster slayer will allow him to wound on a 4+.

So 3 attacks needing a 4 or 5 to hit (remember ferocious charge gives you a -1 to hit) and able to parry 2 attacks on equal numbers with a re-roll of those that wounds on a 4+ if they happen to be T4 or above.

HARDLY unstoppable... time to read the rules.
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PostSubject: Re: Help Starting Dwarves?   Sat 8 May 2010 - 15:28

He also said the Slayer had maxed his Attacks stat, so that's (4x2)+1 = 9 attacks at -1 to hit

Then again, in my last campaign, i managed to have a Nulnite Senior Student wielding a Ithilmar two-hander with S4, R4, A4, I5, Strongman, Lightning Reflexes, Resilient, and other assorted skills, who felt from 1" and got KOed, just to came back Frenzied. I would like to see any Slayer go up versus that girl Very Happy

Which means, any hero can be "unstoppable" given enough advances.
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PostSubject: Re: Help Starting Dwarves?   Sat 8 May 2010 - 15:35

AHH I missed the maxed attack stat, but that's hardly a given. Still... 9 is a bit less than 17.
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PostSubject: Re: Help Starting Dwarves?   Sat 8 May 2010 - 15:47

Any character with a few advances who becomes "frenzied" is going to be nasty.
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PostSubject: Re: Help Starting Dwarves?   Sun 9 May 2010 - 4:41

Thanks for all the advice so far guys.
Before I go spending out I have 2 questions.
What is a good starting line up for a Dwarf warband?
And what sort of line uo should I be aiming for further down the campaign.
This can then help out abit with what I need to buy first.
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PostSubject: Re: Help Starting Dwarves?   Sun 9 May 2010 - 9:01

Buy your heroes. Decide whether you want the cheap gromril armor for your captain or not. Equip the heroes. Then buy as many clansmen/thunderers as you can afford (ignore beardlings). In general, go cheap on kit to increase numbers - the possible exception being the captain's gromril armor - you get a really big discount buying it at the start.
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PostSubject: Re: Help Starting Dwarves?   Sun 9 May 2010 - 9:26

I would also recommend a Merchant Hired Sword to take advantage of any and all income that you make after your games. Dwarfs can really use the help given their limited starting numbers. And, he is cheap.
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PostSubject: Re: Help Starting Dwarves?   Sun 9 May 2010 - 11:53

Nastyogre wrote:
AHH I missed the maxed attack stat, but that's hardly a given. Still... 9 is a bit less than 17.
Indeed I made a mistake thinking they would be affected by frenzy.
The 17 followed the next formula = (4(base maxed)x2(frenzy)x2(ferocious charge) +1(additional hand weapon)).

Otherways, we will make a house rule for that, how come a slayer cannot be frenzied by eating mad caps or hatred vs orcs?.
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PostSubject: Re: Help Starting Dwarves?   Sun 9 May 2010 - 15:08

The point of Dwarf slayers is that they are immune to all psychology. Fear, terror, all alones, hatred, frenzy.

They are both in a blind rage and very clear headed. From a game stand-point the would be horrifying if they were immune to negative psychology but benefitted from positive psych.

They are still VERY good. Though I think the "tough to kill" dwarf slayer with, resilience, master of blades, side step and a T 5 and as many wounds as you can muster is the best development of a slayer.

If you REALLY want a tough dwarf warband. Take my 12 angry dwarfs.

Buyer your heroes. Equip them cheaply. Twin hammers

Buy as many beardlings as you can afford. Equip them cheaply too. 1 hammer and your free dagger.

You get the max warband size. 12 dwarves at 483 gc. If you want to you can do a couple of things.

1- substittue 1 clansman or thunderer for 1 beardling. He gets the same 1 hammer and free dagger.

keep the 8 beardlings and take a halfling scout. at 15 gc you will be ready for the next game to buy another dwarf. because he makes your warband size max to 13. I like this option because you have 13 models forcing your rout check to 4 models. As long as you keep the halfling back and shooting, your enemy has to take out 4 dwarfs. Good luck with that.

Dump a beardling and take the trollslayer hired sword. 3 slayers? yes please. Remember the troll slayer is only 10gc upkeep. He, like the halfling is a real bargain.

dump a beardling and take a pit fighter. The pit fighter isn't as cheap but he's terribly nasty. This leaves you at 485 GC. You can then either upgrade a beardling to a clansman OR take that halfling scout. Again you then have 13 models and room to start adding dwarfs.

Even at this size if you protect your heroes, you will soon have lots of cash because you have your rolls plus an extra shard. With so many henchmen you are very likely to lad up somebody. Will they be as good as ladding a clansman? No. But you will soon have all 6 heroes, and a large amount of money to kick the teeth of your opponents with 14 dwarves (go and buy a halfling cookbook) a couple of good hired swords (with the money to support them easily) and significant equipment. Any beardlings that are lost are replaced with Clansmen and Thunderers.


While shooting warbands would seem to be your nemesis you have to remember you have significant advantages. T4. you are 1/6 harder to even hurt as compared to most models. You only go out on a 6. Darn hard to do when being shot, you probably get hit, maybe hurt and get knocked down or stunned. With so many dwarves, that slow advance WILL get to your opponents. Play smart and be sure to hide and get cover and you can limit your opponents ability to thin your ranks.

This is a mean, nasty and VERY effective strategy. My friends don't want play me if I bring my dwarfs built this way. It gets out of hand VERY quickly if you can get some lads. Take those beardlings in groups of 1 or 2 and you are on the road to crushing your opponents under a slow wave of dwarven steel.
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PostSubject: Re: Help Starting Dwarves?   Sun 9 May 2010 - 15:59

I can see it working. However, I much prefer the thunders and clansmen to beardlings, since two of them are going to be promoted to heroes - and I prefer the best heroes possible. Dwarves will hit their max of twelve models soon enough - I don't see the need to rush it by buying lots of (relatively) cheap troops.
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PostSubject: Re: Help Starting Dwarves?   Sun 9 May 2010 - 16:23

mweaver wrote:
I can see it working. However, I much prefer the thunders and clansmen to beardlings, since two of them are going to be promoted to heroes - and I prefer the best heroes possible. Dwarves will hit their max of twelve models soon enough - I don't see the need to rush it by buying lots of (relatively) cheap troops.

Couldn't agree more. I prefer to buy sturdy troops to begin with, even though I have the beardlings from the boxed set. I can always use them as unarmoured clansmen.
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