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 Another Axe Fix

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Asp
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PostSubject: Another Axe Fix   Wed 21 Apr 2010 - 14:32

Club 5gc common
Concussion: Treat Injury Rolls of '2' as stunned.

Axe 5gc common
Slay: Treat Injury Rolls of '4' as out of action. No effect vs. heroes. (Does not Stack with Strike to Injure)


Axe might be the best weapon just. Further adjustment could read:

Axe 5gc common
Slay: Treat Injury Rolls of '4' as out of action. No effect vs. heroes or animals. (Does not Stack with Strike to Injure)


Last edited by Asp on Wed 21 Apr 2010 - 18:32; edited 2 times in total
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CygnusMaximus
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PostSubject: Re: Another Axe Fix   Wed 21 Apr 2010 - 14:41

I really like it, actually!

It works well with the core warbands in the rules... but Dwarfs complicate the issue slightly.

Would Dwarfs be immune to this effect or would the axe take them OOA on a 5+?

I understand the mechanical reason for it applying only to henchmen and not to heroes, but from a "fluff" perspective it doesn't make much sense to me; though it is certainly a HUGE improvement on the currently lackluster axe.
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PostSubject: Re: Another Axe Fix   Wed 21 Apr 2010 - 16:17

Asp wrote:
Club 5gc common
Concussion: Treat Injury Rolls of '2' as stunned.

Axe 5gc common
Slay: Treat Injury Rolls of '4' as out of action. No effect vs. heroes.


Axe might be the best weapon just. Further adjustment could read:

Axe 5gc common
Slay: Vs. Henchmen, treat Injury Rolls of '4' as out of action. No effect vs. heroes or animals.

I think this is a good start... and it is slightly more conservative (rightly so) than simply saying +1 to injury rolls. My preference of this over +1 to injury rolls is that you have almost zero chance of knocked down, only. This seems a little too powerful. As Cygnus has pointed out, Dwarfs should only be OOA on 5+ with this rule.
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mweaver
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PostSubject: Re: Another Axe Fix   Wed 21 Apr 2010 - 17:17

Yech. Sorry, but why would an axe (or any weapon) be more effective against a henchman than a human? I understand the game effect you are trying to achieve, but what "in-game" rationale would you use?
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PostSubject: Re: Another Axe Fix   Wed 21 Apr 2010 - 17:23

How would this stack with strike to injure and such?
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PostSubject: Re: Another Axe Fix   Wed 21 Apr 2010 - 17:24

Figgy wrote:
How would this stack with strike to injure and such?

It would certainly make models with strike to injure FAR more likely to be toting an axe or two!
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Figgy
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PostSubject: Re: Another Axe Fix   Wed 21 Apr 2010 - 17:42

Lil cheap if you ask me then!
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Asp
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PostSubject: Re: Another Axe Fix   Wed 21 Apr 2010 - 18:31

allright allright

i go for great rules first and fluff second. of course fluff-hards will disagree Smile

though I could actually imagine heroes shrugging off the blow! Wink

axe should NOT stack with strike to injure, forgot about that skill.
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PostSubject: Re: Another Axe Fix   Wed 21 Apr 2010 - 20:43

This is actually a line of thought that I think is very reasonable. After playing GW's LotR game only briefly when in first came out, I liked that named heroes were harder to kill. It almost seemed like they were evolving from Mordheim. I think it is about time that Mordheim took that idea back like Asp is suggesting and have these sorts of rules to support it.

Now that I think of it, it is also probably time for me to pick up the latest LotR game and re-read the rules to adopt into my Mordheim campaign.
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mweaver
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PostSubject: Re: Another Axe Fix   Wed 21 Apr 2010 - 20:50

Heroes are already harder to kill in Mordheim...
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PostSubject: Re: Another Axe Fix   Wed 21 Apr 2010 - 21:00

Only for other heroes. A henchman has almost an equal chance to put a hero OOA as he does a giant rat in the beginning of a campaign. Even some heroes have the same chance to put heroes OOA as they do giant rats.
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PostSubject: Re: Another Axe Fix   Wed 21 Apr 2010 - 21:01

mweaver wrote:
Heroes are already harder to kill in Mordheim...

umm, rightly so?
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PostSubject: Re: Another Axe Fix   Wed 21 Apr 2010 - 21:26

Harder to kill, not harder to put out of action.
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PostSubject: Re: Another Axe Fix   Wed 21 Apr 2010 - 22:17

I am not saying that heroes should be invincible, and I don't think Asp is suggesting this, neither. However, math says that heroes are just as easy to take out as henchmen. And, as long as you can keep one henchman in a group alive, you will never lose progress, whereas heroes have almost 15% chance of dying if they go OOA and many more injury rolls can be equivalent to dying, particularly when beginning a campaign.

Asp's idea keeps heroes' interactions with axes the same and gives a benefit to hunting henchmen groups.
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REminenz
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PostSubject: Re: Another Axe Fix   Wed 21 Apr 2010 - 23:50

In my opinion the axe itself doesn't need a fix. (well okay, maybe in the vanilla rules)

I think the best way to make axes more attractive/viable is to make armor more attractive/viable.
Then the axe itself is fine. Maybe it is still a bit too expensive compared to the club but since I am not a big fan of changing the rules that much, I think I can live with it. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Another Axe Fix   Thu 22 Apr 2010 - 0:33

I agree with REminenz.

also, why would anyone want to take a club if an axe, which is a WAY better weapon with those rules, is just as expensive?

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PostSubject: Re: Another Axe Fix   Thu 22 Apr 2010 - 1:11

I must agree on this as well.
I think making armour more attractive would make the axe more sensible.
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Asp
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PostSubject: Re: Another Axe Fix   Thu 22 Apr 2010 - 5:12

Quote :
also, why would anyone want to take a club if an axe, which is a WAY
better weapon with those rules, is just as expensive?

its not WAY better if it does not work on heroes or henchmen
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PostSubject: Re: Another Axe Fix   Thu 22 Apr 2010 - 5:38

Yes, it is WAY better (letting it work against heroes would just make it WAY WAY better).

If the object is to increase hero survivability, then tweak the serious injury rolls somehow. Sometimes in our campaigns we have issued everyone a "free reroll" or two for rolls on the serious injury table, which tends to mean no one loses a vital hero early in the campaign. Others have suggested that a warrior can have an armor save against rolling on the table. We haven't tried that one.
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PostSubject: Re: Another Axe Fix   Thu 22 Apr 2010 - 6:15

Asp wrote:


its not WAY better if it does not work on heroes or henchmen

What does that mean? Or yeah you are so right. Not sure what you are fixing but it looks like some other stuff is broke.

Fluff bunny hops off...
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Asp
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PostSubject: Re: Another Axe Fix   Thu 22 Apr 2010 - 6:17

hehe

i meant heroes or animals

Axe 5gc common
Slay: Treat Injury Rolls of '4' as out
of action
. No effect vs. heroes or animals. (Does not Stack with
Strike to Injure)
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PostSubject: Re: Another Axe Fix   Thu 22 Apr 2010 - 7:30

The opinion of REminenz and Matt matches mine, so they are obviously both highly intelligent people and correct.

Alternatively, what about:

Cutting Impact:
Axes are heavy, unbalanced weapons that - when they hit - will hit hard and bite deep. Knocked down results count as stunned on a 4+. From a flavour point of view think of it as stunning from pain and shock rather than from a blow to the head. Either way, same game resuled - Stunned is Stunned.
Pros: Operates off to the side of other injury rules, so can be quickly and consistently applied.
Cons: Sometimes adds an extra roll, extending game-play.

Alternatively:
Cutting Impact:Axes are heavy, unbalanced weapons that - when they
hit - will hit hard and bite deep.
Knocked down results may be re-rolled.
Pros: Operates off to the side of other injury rules, so can be quickly and
consistently applied.
Cons: Sometimes adds an extra roll, extending game-play.

Counting up modifiers sometimes takes more and sometimes takes less than just re-rolling. YMMV.

The first option gives more opportunities for Rabbit's Foot usage, the latter gives less. This may be either a pro or a con to you. Again, YMMV.

One final effect:
Cutting Impact: Axes are heavy, unbalanced weapons that - when
they hit - will hit hard and bite deep.
Unmodified wound rolls of 1 may be re-rolled.
Pros: *Very* potent, particularly for models with S5 and above.
Cons: *Very* potent, particularly for models with S5 and above.
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Asp
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PostSubject: Re: Another Axe Fix   Thu 22 Apr 2010 - 7:58

but all of these makes it better than club?
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PostSubject: Re: Another Axe Fix   Thu 22 Apr 2010 - 8:13

*Shrug* Very Happy.

OOA on a 4+ is better than a club also. These were just suggestions for a mechanic other than +1 to injure in a particular band. You can add in exceptions where it won't work for balance later on once you are happy with the mechanic eg, Only works on henchmen, Only works on unarmored targets (shields and bucklers may or may not count), heavy armour and better is immune to the rule, etc.
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Asp
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PostSubject: Re: Another Axe Fix   Thu 22 Apr 2010 - 8:22

not vs. heroes means that my proposed axe will be better than club 50-60% of the time and worse than club 40-50% of the time.
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PostSubject: Re: Another Axe Fix   Today at 10:44

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