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qboid
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PostSubject: Squigs and the controlling of.   Wed 21 Apr 2010 - 4:54

Guys,

I am using Squigs tonight for the first time, and thought i would check on the movement rules.
Is it 2d6 inches for any move you want to take, and is it rolled per Squig or as a group?

Can you choose not to move, or do you have to roll 2d6 and move every turn?

Do you just declare a direction, then roll for the amount moved?
What happens if they reach an obstacle?

Thanks for any help.
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PostSubject: Re: Squigs and the controlling of.   Wed 21 Apr 2010 - 18:47

Hi qboid,

You *have* to move 2d6 every turn. We play that you roll a single 2d6 for all squigs but that is just to save time. We also choose direction after rolling the 2d6 but perhaps that is wrong. We make squigs stop when they walk into a wall because squigs have to move in a straight line. This may be bending the rules though as effectively that provides an option to *not* move squigs.

Cheers!
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PostSubject: Re: Squigs and the controlling of.   Wed 21 Apr 2010 - 19:41

Is it 2d6 inches for any move you want to take, and is it rolled per Squig or as a group?
You roll for each squig.

Can you choose not to move, or do you have to roll 2d6 and move every turn?
You must roll every turn. No point in playing the warband if you don't want silly stuff to happen is there?

Do you just declare a direction, then roll for the amount moved?
We declare a direction, then roll.

What happens if they reach an obstacle?
Since they are bounding we play that they clear the obstacle if they have the movement. If they don't they may take damage depending on what they were trying to do. Squigs that land in water are stuck and must roll for drowning every turn until they do or a boat comes along to save them.
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PostSubject: Re: Squigs and the controlling of.   Wed 21 Apr 2010 - 21:11

I agree with von Kurst on all counts - it's particularly important (in my opinion) to declare direction before rolling, doing anything else basically gives you pre-measured charges!
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PostSubject: Re: Squigs and the controlling of.   Thu 22 Apr 2010 - 3:25

Huh? Where is any of that mentioned in the rules? At least the German version of the orc&goblin rules make it very clear (in my opinion) that you can "bring the model in contact with an enemy" and they use "normal movement" (both translated by me, I don't have the english version of the orc rules nearby). Nowhere is it mentioned that you have to declare direction before rolling distance, or that they have to move in a straight line.

(Unless they become out of control by being too far from a goblin - in that case all bets are off, but then you don't declare a direction at all but just roll it).

In my opinion the pre-measured un-announced charges are the point of the model (note, this happens in the movement phase when all normal charges have been done already - so you cannot misuse it to measure charge distances for other models). It is, in my opinion, more than compensated by the drawbacks of the squigs:

- Random movement => 2" happen... the average of 7" is not that much faster than normal movement (some armies get 6" for all members) => and no sprinting!
- No exp gain => S4 / WS4 is nice at the beginning (at least against humans), but will be normal or weak later. And against non-human warbands like Ogres (even fresh ones) it's nothing special at all.
- No items.
- Forced to bring weak goblins (with a chance of freezing on every move).
- Backfiring goblins and squigs (both can attack their own warband if the goblins fail their tests or the squigs get free).


But most important, how can you not trust someone with THIS smile?

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PostSubject: Re: Squigs and the controlling of.   Thu 22 Apr 2010 - 3:36

We used to fudge the rules on squigs a bit - we still declare the direction after rolling, but we ignored the whole 'have to move in a straight line' completely. We're better at that now.

They're also really useful for attacking hidden models, since they don't declare charges.
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PostSubject: Re: Squigs and the controlling of.   Thu 22 Apr 2010 - 6:24

Perhaps we should have been clearer on what is a 'house rule' but RationalLemming had already mentioned that his interpretations might be 'bending' of the rules.

We have always played move in a straight line for any kind of compulsory movement because we are used to it from WFB.
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PostSubject: Re: Squigs and the controlling of.   Thu 22 Apr 2010 - 6:38

Von Kurst wrote:
We have always played move in a straight line for any kind of compulsory movement because we are used to it from WFB.

EDIT: removed my comment on the same rule in Mordheim - doesn't seem to exist.


Last edited by SomeOrc on Thu 22 Apr 2010 - 7:12; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Squigs and the controlling of.   Thu 22 Apr 2010 - 6:45

The way we play (and as far as I can tell, this is supported by the rules) the squigs each roll individually and this generates how far they can move in the normal manner.

The order we play is:
Recovery,
Declare charges (but not with squigs are they are specifically disallowed from doing so),
Move chargers,
Compulsory Moves,
Roll distance for each squig,
All normal moves (including squigs).

Because they follow normal rules for moving you can move up to the distance rolled, you do not *have* to move any of it, and you can pass over obstacles 1 inch or lower freely. You may curve if you wish, etc. Can't ever run though. You *may* move into base-to-base contact with enemy models and if you do you count as charging.

I don't see anything that says their movement is compulsory though.
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PostSubject: Re: Squigs and the controlling of.   Thu 22 Apr 2010 - 6:59

I can't seem to find the overriding 'all compulsory moves must be
straight' rule.

I can see where it says if you break and then flee you have to move your maximum distance (determined by 2d6) directly away from enemies and towards the table edge, but it doesn't say that has to be in a straight line (does say it has to be direct though, so no superfluous corners).

I can also see where it says that if you fail a stupidity test you must go straight ahead on a 1-3, but that is all.
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PostSubject: Re: Squigs and the controlling of.   Thu 22 Apr 2010 - 7:08

Orcs & Goblins Warband List wrote:
Movement: Cave Squigs do not have a set Movement characteristic but move with an ungainly bouncing stride. To represent this, when moving Squigs, roll 2D6 for the distance they move. Squigs never run and never declare charges. Instead, they are allowed to contact enemy models with their normal 2D6" movement. If this happens, they count as charging for the following round of close combat, just as if they had declared a charge.

The rules themselves (at least in English) only refer to "normal" movement when referring to the squig's "normal movement" (which is actually abnormal when compared to the basic movement rules). It also says "roll 2D6 for the distance they move" - not "may move" - to me, this means they move the full 2D6".

It doesn't say that you have to declare a direction first, but it doesn't have me satisfied that you don't.

I really wish they'd given a step-by-step process - that's a bit easier to follow.
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PostSubject: Re: Squigs and the controlling of.   Thu 22 Apr 2010 - 7:18

Lord 0 wrote:
The way we play (and as far as I can tell, this is supported by the rules) the squigs each roll individually and this generates how far they can move in the normal manner.

The order we play is:
Recovery,
Declare charges (but not with squigs are they are specifically disallowed from doing so),
Move chargers,
Compulsory Moves,
Roll distance for each squig,
All normal moves (including squigs).

Because they follow normal rules for moving you can move up to the distance rolled, you do not *have* to move any of it, and you can pass over obstacles 1 inch or lower freely. You may curve if you wish, etc. Can't ever run though. You *may* move into base-to-base contact with enemy models and if you do you count as charging.

I don't see anything that says their movement is compulsory though.

Aye, that's exactly what we do, and what I meant in my post up there. Thanks for pointing it out in such a clear manner.

Lord 0 wrote:
I can't seem to find the overriding 'all compulsory moves must be
straight' rule.

Dang, I could have sworn it is under the "Compulsory moves" heading in the chapter on movement, but it only has "must run away" (*not* in a straight line). I've edited my first comment on this to avoid future problems.

CygnusMaximus wrote:

The rules themselves (at least in English) only refer to "normal" movement when referring to the squig's "normal movement" (which is actually abnormal when compared to the basic movement rules). It also says "roll 2D6 for the distance they move" - not "may move" - to me, this means they move the full 2D6".

It doesn't say that you have to declare a direction first, but it doesn't have me satisfied that you don't.

I really wish they'd given a step-by-step process - that's a bit easier to follow.

Well, to me, the movement is a "normal 2D6" movement" (straight quote from your quote). Which is just as normal as a "normal 4" movement"; all abnormalities are explicitely listed (i.e., the distance is rolled, no sprinting, and being able to enter combat without charging, which, as far as moving is related, means that you can move within 1" of enemy models).

Even though the Mordheim rules are (IMO) notorious for leaving out little things that would make many rule discussions irrelevant, having to declare a direction, and doing a straight line movement (not to mention special rules for crossing vertical terrain), are enormously different things which would certainly be mentioned.
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PostSubject: Re: Squigs and the controlling of.   Thu 22 Apr 2010 - 7:23

SomeOrc wrote:
Well, to me, the movement is a "normal 2D6" movement" (straight quote from your quote). Which is just as normal as a "normal 4" movement"; all abnormalities are explicitely listed (i.e., the distance is rolled, no sprinting, and being able to enter combat without charging, which, as far as moving is related, means that you can move within 1" of enemy models).

Except it says "their normal 2D6" movement" (emphasis mine) - which (to me) means the movement is only normal for the squigs.

AAAAAARRRRGHH! Too much left up to interpretation!


Last edited by CygnusMaximus on Thu 22 Apr 2010 - 7:37; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Squigs and the controlling of.   Thu 22 Apr 2010 - 7:34

Occams Razor
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PostSubject: Re: Squigs and the controlling of.   Thu 22 Apr 2010 - 7:38

SomeOrc wrote:
Occams Razor

But one could argue that a straight line is more simple than a more complex move... Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: Squigs and the controlling of.   Thu 22 Apr 2010 - 7:52

Depends on which definition of "simple". Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Squigs and the controlling of.   Thu 22 Apr 2010 - 8:54

CygnusMaximus wrote:
The rules themselves (at least in English) only refer to "normal" movement when referring to the squig's "normal movement" (which is actually abnormal when compared to the basic movement rules). It also says "roll 2D6 for the distance they move" - not "may move" - to me, this means they move the full 2D6".

It doesn't say that you have to declare a direction first, but it doesn't have me satisfied that you don't.

I really wish they'd given a step-by-step process - that's a bit easier to follow.
When they talked about 'normal move' we interpreted that to mean that you generate the value of the move stat with 2d6 and then follow the rules for normal movement except where noted in the description.

You are right, by RAW they will have to move the maximum amount rolled, and, indeed, that was how we played it at first. However, we very quickly found that squigs were pretty much impossible to control if you play it like that with the bloody things going haywire all over the place by about turn three and almost none of them ever made it into combat. This in turn led to noone taking squigs and that made us sad.

To counter that, we decided that it would be better if we treated it more like normal move and allowed the squigs to move less than the amount rolled. People started taking squigs again and the people rejoiced Very Happy.

I almost invariably find that we have a happier gaming experience if we follow what the rules do say, not what they don't. They do say you can move and under what circumstances, they do say the maximum amount you can move, etc. and they do *not* say that you have to declare a direction, they do say that when moving you can go around corners and over obstacles of <1", etc. They don't say the squig has to move in a straight line and they don't say the squig has to declare a direction before rolling so that is what we do and we have fun following those rules. YMMV Smile.
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PostSubject: Re: Squigs and the controlling of.   Thu 22 Apr 2010 - 12:30

Ha, i didn't know i was going to start such a 2 and 8!

At least this discussion proves i wasn't just misreading something that everyone alse thought was perfectly obvious Smile

I must agree with Lord 0, as i was seriously considering not using them as they would be uncontrollable with forced moves and i can see them going wild every game without a chance to achieve anything.

I will have to chat with my gaming partner and see what he thinks.

Cheers for all the replies to think about guys.

Sir, yes sir!
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PostSubject: Re: Squigs and the controlling of.   Thu 22 Apr 2010 - 13:59

Welcome! Remember, green is beautiful

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PostSubject: Re: Squigs and the controlling of.   Mon 26 Apr 2010 - 2:45

I always wonder how these house rules of ours develop! Laughing Squigs do not need to move in a straight line. Shocked
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PostSubject: Re: Squigs and the controlling of.   Mon 26 Apr 2010 - 19:34

From Mordheimer FAQ:
Quote :
Q: As Squigs do not have to declare charge (they move 2D6” each turn and if they come to base to base they automatically charge) do they have to roll for the fear test when charging fear causing enemy?
A: Squig's movement is not voluntary. A Squig who ends up in base to base with a fearsome opponent must make a test and hits on 6's if it fails, but technically the Squig need not make a fear test when moving base-to-base. [Rinku, recommended]


And quoted from an older topic on this forum:
Da Bank wrote:

I found an old email from Mark Havenor (Author of Da Orc Mob)



1. How does the squig's 2D6" move work? Is the resulting number the
squig's _maximum_ move, or is he forced to use it all? If the latter,
what's to stop him moving in an arc or even going backwards then forwards?

Or does the player need to declare the direction before he rolls the
movement?

******
This is the amount he moves (that's what it says in the text, and the intent).
If this move takes him into an enemy model, he stops and it's counted as a
charge. Nothing other than your sense of fair play stops a player from running
his squigs around in circles. The intent is that the little buggers move 2D6"
in a direction nominated by the player, only moving less if something impedes
their progress (like an enemy model). If your group likes the idea of them
running in circles though, that's how you should play it! Smile





2. If an uncontrolled squig is in combat with another model that becomes
knocked-down or stunned, will the squig continue to fight or will it bounce
away randomly?

We played the latter, mainly because it was more fun.

******
Really up to the player. I'd probably keep it in combat, but I can see a player
arguing that it should move away, since it can (against a prone opponent).


3. Can a stunned goblin act as a minder? Surely not! What about a
knocked-down goblin? This seems reasonable - just like a leader and his
rout tests.

******
Actually stunned or KD goblins CAN act as minderz...keep in mind that squigs
aren't that bright, they're beasts, and the presence of their 'master' is enough
to keep them pretty well in line (in fact this is alluded to with the
prodder...it's the sight of the thing that keeps the squigs in line as much as
the occasional poke with the pointy end...).

Rules-wise it's this way to keep the squigs from being utterly uncontrollable.
You have to actually take the gobbos out (OOA) to make the squigs go wild.


4. If a goblin attacks one of his own models, does that model fight back?
I'd presume so but it's not clear.

******
It's a "round of hand-to-hand combat", so I guess it's up to whether or not your
group normally lets models that are in combat elect to not strike back.



- Mark
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PostSubject: Re: Squigs and the controlling of.   Mon 26 Apr 2010 - 21:22

Some good finds there, Pathfinder Dubstyles. thumbsup
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PostSubject: Re: Squigs and the controlling of.   Wed 16 Jun 2010 - 14:49

Da Bank wrote:


1. How does the squig's 2D6" move work? Is the resulting number the
squig's _maximum_ move, or is he forced to use it all? If the latter,
what's to stop him moving in an arc or even going backwards then forwards?

Or does the player need to declare the direction before he rolls the
movement?

******
This is the amount he moves (that's what it says in the text, and the intent).
If this move takes him into an enemy model, he stops and it's counted as a
charge. Nothing other than your sense of fair play stops a player from running
his squigs around in circles. The intent is that the little buggers move 2D6"
in a direction nominated by the player, only moving less if something impedes
their progress (like an enemy model). If your group likes the idea of them
running in circles though, that's how you should play it! Smile


- Mark

actually i find that the answer does not clearly indicate if the squig has to run in a straight line or not.

@those groups who resolve(d) squig movement in a STRAIGHT line:

1) do you guys think that there is enough chance for a squig to enter combat if moving in a straight line?

2) or are they rather jumping around a combat until they finally get into a position to get that straight line?

i never tried it out (yet) but have to decide how to rule it out. so i would love to hear your experiences in this point...
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PostSubject: Re: Squigs and the controlling of.   Wed 16 Jun 2010 - 15:54

Mr Havener could have been a bit clearer. However since his answer we have been less strict about the straight path and the world has not ended.

When we did use the straight path we found no difficulty in getting into combat since the squig is bounding and need not roll the exact distance to contact its target. If there was an obstacle in the way we ruled the squig cleared it if it had enough movement to get over the obstacle.

The only difficulty a squig would have was with high solid walls or intact buildings.
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PostSubject: Re: Squigs and the controlling of.   Thu 17 Jun 2010 - 1:49

I think that the intent of the original author is fairly clear. I personally would not mind letting the player chose whether to go 2D6 in a straight line, or 2D6 along the shortest route to a model. For example, letting the squig move straight to the corner of a building, around the corner, and straight to the model there. What I have a problem with is that some people roll a bad roll that want to, for whatever reason move only 4 inches and roll an 8 so they just move 6 forward and back 2. There is a give and a take to squig movement, however, a liberal interpretation of the rule can get rid of a lot of the take.
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