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Lith
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PostSubject: Sigmarite Warhammer   Mon 19 Apr 2010 - 17:06

Hammer of Sigmar gives me +1 to wound on :

1.Beastman
2.Carnival of Chaos
3.Orcs&Goblins
4.Tomb Guardians

Please answer me number and yes or no
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HarryMason
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PostSubject: Re: Sigmarite Warhammer   Mon 19 Apr 2010 - 17:14

Not beastmen and definitively not orcs, and technically not Carnival of Chaos (though you should treat them as a possessed warband in this instance). I do not know what a tomb guardian is, so I can’t help you there.
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PostSubject: Re: Sigmarite Warhammer   Mon 19 Apr 2010 - 17:16

1.Beastman no
2.Carnival of Chaos yes
3.Orcs&Goblins no
4.Tomb
Guardians yes

sensible house rule
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Lith
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PostSubject: Re: Sigmarite Warhammer   Mon 19 Apr 2010 - 17:22

So that mean Beastmans isn't Chaos cretures ;> yes ?
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PostSubject: Re: Sigmarite Warhammer   Mon 19 Apr 2010 - 17:25

Seems like you could house rule that without too much issue. They are chaotic, but not creatures of Chaos I think....

(Could be wrong on their upbringing)

However, sisters are powerful enough as is!
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PostSubject: Re: Sigmarite Warhammer   Mon 19 Apr 2010 - 17:27

well they are chaos-affilated but not chaos in the "spirit of the rules" that the sigmarite warhammer was written
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Lith
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PostSubject: Re: Sigmarite Warhammer   Mon 19 Apr 2010 - 17:29

Figgy wrote:
Seems like you could house rule that without too much issue. They are chaotic, but not creatures of Chaos I think....

(Could be wrong on their upbringing)

And thats a Problem in this question.
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PostSubject: Re: Sigmarite Warhammer   Mon 19 Apr 2010 - 18:37

OH DA BANK!!! DA BANK!!!
I think he's probably best to express his opinion. Though I will give it a go...

Possessed and Undead models is the exact wording.

So.. the possessed thing is pretty straight forward. You could probably say it should effect Nurglings and Plaguebringers.

Any model that has the undead characteristic. THE ENTIRE warband of the Tomb Guardians has this characteristic. So that doesn't even need a ruling or a house rule. They ARE undead. It's that simple.

The Carnival of Chaos well... that's the problem with a dead ruleset and an apathetic gamewriter.
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CygnusMaximus
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PostSubject: Re: Sigmarite Warhammer   Mon 19 Apr 2010 - 21:05

Just to go into a little bit more detail:

When it says "The Possessed" or just "Possessed", it seems to be referring only to the two "Possessed" models allowed to the Cult of the Possessed (i.e., if it applied to the whole warband, it would say "Cult of the Possessed").

In addition to this, you have the undead - they have the special rule listed clearly in their entries.

Both of these beings are powered by magic - the possessed are part daemon (a daemon being a creature of pure magic) and the undead are animated by Necromancy. Beastmen have been warped by Chaos but are certainly not all magical or sustained by the winds of magic. Because of this, a blessed hammer wouldn't be any more effective against them than your average human/dwarf/elf/halfling/kobold/gnoblar/whatever.

So, the basic question is, "Does the thing I just hit rely on magic to be here?" If the answer is "yes", you ought to get the bonus.
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PostSubject: Re: Sigmarite Warhammer   Mon 19 Apr 2010 - 21:20

I'd tend to agree Cygnus... but I think that confuses the idea.
Its the difference in reading as written or reading as intended.

The "powered by magic" is the latter.

Applying the hammer to Tomb Guardians is "as written" because the Tomb Guardians are undead.

I like and tend to agree with the "powered by magic" concept.
You end up with some interesting questions.

Shapeshifted casters?
Werewolves? (The Baelwolf)
Mutants?
Chaos-Gifted Magisters?
Wyrdstone powered rat ogre Constructs?

It becomes more gray. Which can be a problem. I would tend to say, "powered by DARK magic" (chaos or necromancy) That opens up more grayness however.

An official FAQ encompassing all rules published upto and including the final Town Crier and the Fanatic website is what we should have, its the only way to really get a cohesive set of rules.

I wonder if GW would do a rules review or at least a full and final FAQ if we PAID them to do it? I wonder what it would cost?
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PostSubject: Re: Sigmarite Warhammer   Mon 19 Apr 2010 - 21:47

Now you are getting somewhere the spell is not intended to go (at least if you accept that as written it only applies to Possessed and Undead.) If the hammer affected mutants or magisters it would say so since when its rules were written with those warrior types present in the game. Also since Skaven are beastmen types why aren't they on the list?

I think its fairly easy to apply the hammer to any daemonic types, like say daemons for example, or undead types like mummies or other things with the undead rule.

For the rest maybe we can get cianty, da bank and friends to FAQ it for us...
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PostSubject: Re: Sigmarite Warhammer   Mon 19 Apr 2010 - 23:44

Lith wrote:
Hammer of Sigmar gives me +1 to wound on :

1.Beastman
2.Carnival of Chaos
3.Orcs&Goblins
4.Tomb Guardians

Please answer me number and yes or no

you forgot ...

5. Halflings
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sartori
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PostSubject: Re: Sigmarite Warhammer   Tue 20 Apr 2010 - 0:54

I don't like the powered by magic idea, but I do like the daemonic, or daemonically possessed replacing the plain old "possessed" entry. Nurglings would be affected in this case, but not mutants or beastmen and a bloodthirster from the random happenings chart would be affected. Makes sense to me - it's simple, and doesn't explode the ability to include too much.
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hero
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PostSubject: Re: Sigmarite Warhammer   Tue 20 Apr 2010 - 1:09

Yeah, seems like daemonic and undead entities would be the ones against which the hammers have bonuses. Would probably include forest spirits like dryads as well.
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Lith
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PostSubject: Re: Sigmarite Warhammer   Tue 20 Apr 2010 - 6:31

MeanBone wrote:
Lith wrote:
Hammer of Sigmar gives me +1 to wound on :

1.Beastman
2.Carnival of Chaos
3.Orcs&Goblins
4.Tomb Guardians

Please answer me number and yes or no

you forgot ...

5. Halflings

No coment for you... ;/


So warhammer give me bonus only on Chaos creatures and Undeads.

Thanks for help.
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CygnusMaximus
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PostSubject: Re: Sigmarite Warhammer   Tue 20 Apr 2010 - 6:56

sartori wrote:
I don't like the powered by magic idea, but I do like the daemonic, or daemonically possessed replacing the plain old "possessed" entry. Nurglings would be affected in this case, but not mutants or beastmen and a bloodthirster from the random happenings chart would be affected. Makes sense to me - it's simple, and doesn't explode the ability to include too much.

That was actually what I was trying to say - not just powered by magic, but reliant on the winds of Chaos to exist on the mortal plane. I suppose I should have just said "daemonic" creatures, but you never know when you'll go up against some Dryads! Razz
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db
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PostSubject: Re: Sigmarite Warhammer   Thu 6 May 2010 - 15:44

The mordheim Annual (p106) says that blessed water and weapons affect actual undead (vampires, zombies, dire wolves), magister, possessed, mutants, and dark souls.

So following that example all models in the Carnival of Chaos warband, except the brethern would be affected.

Since beastmen in the possessed warbands aren't affected neither would the average beastman be in the beastman warband, unless they have a mutation. The beastman shaman though is like the magister a servant of the Dark Gods and uses the Chaos Rituals list like the magister so likely would be affected by holy weapons.
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PostSubject: Re: Sigmarite Warhammer   Thu 6 May 2010 - 18:08

Very good first post, db! And good reference, too!

Given that precedent, I think what you say makes perfect sense.
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PostSubject: Re: Sigmarite Warhammer   Fri 7 May 2010 - 13:13

I see the Sisters as wanting to purge the world of Evil and Chaotic Magic from the Chaotic Gods. So that is why they said Possesssed and Undead. So I would argue that their Holy Weapons would work on Evil and Chaotic Magic. So anything Undead, with a Mutation, Castes Spells from Chaotic Magic or is infused with undead magic or Chaos Magic would be effected.

So that would include All of the Tomb Kings list, Most of the Undead (not Dregs, maybe not Ghouls), Possessed everyone but the Brethen, from the Marauders that would include The Seer, The Condemed, and Spawn of Chaos (maybe the Chief when he gets a Mark of Chaos).


Now that being said if it was a Witchhunter Warband Weapon I would say all of the above mentioned plus any non-prayer spell caster.
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PostSubject: Re: Sigmarite Warhammer   Fri 7 May 2010 - 15:15

Rudeboy wrote:
So that would include All of the Tomb Kings list, Most of the Undead (not Dregs, maybe not Ghouls), Possessed everyone but the Brethen, from the Marauders that would include The Seer, The Condemed, and Spawn of Chaos (maybe the Chief when he gets a Mark of Chaos).

Definitely Chief when he gets a Mark of Chaos. It would also include a Brethren Hero if it is promoted to leader in a Possessed warband and starts casting Chaos Rituals.
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PostSubject: Re: Sigmarite Warhammer   Fri 7 May 2010 - 20:18

Rudeboy is paying special attention to this issue.......

(cue sinister laugh)
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PostSubject: Re: Sigmarite Warhammer   Sat 8 May 2010 - 15:15

RationalLemming wrote:
Rudeboy wrote:
So that would include All of the Tomb Kings list, Most of the Undead (not Dregs, maybe not Ghouls), Possessed everyone but the Brethen, from the Marauders that would include The Seer, The Condemed, and Spawn of Chaos (maybe the Chief when he gets a Mark of Chaos).

Definitely Chief when he gets a Mark of Chaos. It would also include a Brethren Hero if it is promoted to leader in a Possessed warband and starts casting Chaos Rituals.

A brethren wouldn't be able to cast chaos rituals. He COULD gain access to lesser magic IF upon his ladding up you chose to take the academic skills list, took the arcane lore skill and THEN found and used a magic tome to gain the ability to cast spells. The skill does not confer the ability to learn new spell lists.

Becoming the leader in the death of a leader would grant the leadership skill and nothing else. Hr does not gain the skill lists of the magister, nor the ability to cast chaos rituals.
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PostSubject: Re: Sigmarite Warhammer   Sat 8 May 2010 - 17:55

Mordheim Living Rulebook pg. 78 wrote:
If the leader of a Sisters of Sigmar, Possessed or
Carnival of Chaos warband dies then their successor will be entitled to learn to use magic in their stead.
The new leader may roll for a prayer/spell from the appropriate list, instead of rolling on the Advance
table, the first time they are eligible for an advance. After this they are considered to be a wizard/use
prayers as appropriate for their warband and use the Advance table as normal.

A Brother (which is the singular of brethren) would learn Chaos Rituals if he replaced the leader.
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PostSubject: Re: Sigmarite Warhammer   Sat 8 May 2010 - 18:29

I stand corrected
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PostSubject: Re: Sigmarite Warhammer   Mon 10 May 2010 - 8:21

Joker2and53 is also paying close attention. Since I am playing Marauders and he is playing Sisters we both have a vested interest in how the Warhammers work. I would think that since his sisters would have the warhammers I think he would be a little more concerned.

In the Champaign we are about to play there will be a Marauder Warband, Undead and restless dead.
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