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 Knocking an Opponent Down and Multiple Attacks

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Lendro Furioso
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PostSubject: Knocking an Opponent Down and Multiple Attacks   Tue 13 Apr 2010 - 7:42

I have a rules question:

Say a model with two or more attacks (through +1 A or dual-wielding) is in close-combat with a single model and wounds him, knocking him down. In the combat section, it states that you cannot automatically hit and put the opponent out-of-action in the same round unless you have another model to attack. So, are the other attacks wasted if no other opponents are in base-to-base contact?
My question is, could I attack him normally (i.e. without autohit from knocked down), wound him, and possibly get a stunned or out-of-action result in a regular Injury roll, should I succeed?


I looked around the FAQ, and couldn't find an answer, and I'm wondering, because the rules seem to imply you can no longer attack the model, which seems odd to me. I understand the no auto-hit for balance reasons, of course.
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Keylan
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PostSubject: Re: Knocking an Opponent Down and Multiple Attacks   Tue 13 Apr 2010 - 8:01

Quote :
it states that you cannot automatically hit and put the opponent
out-of-action in the same round unless you have another model to attack.
So, are the other attacks wasted if no other opponents are in
base-to-base contact?

U have to declare all of ur modells attacks before a single dice is rolled, so even if there are other oponents in base to base contact u have to assign attacks to them before u know a modell will go down.

But for sure ur attacks are not wasted. If u got 3 attacks and declare to use all of them against a single enemy modell u get 3 dice to hit.
For each sucessful roll u are allowed to roll dices to wound (0-3 dices at once).
For each sucessfull wound u roll for injury and highest result count.

If u would roll attacks one behind the other (from hit to injury) u get trouble with various rules of the original rules. For example the swords Parry rule wont work as intendet.
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Lendro Furioso
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PostSubject: Re: Knocking an Opponent Down and Multiple Attacks   Tue 13 Apr 2010 - 8:11

Ah, I see, we've been playing it wrong then. Makes sense for you to declare attacks and then roll.
Our group just started playing Mordheim, so we're only a couple of games in... Still getting all the rules worked out.

Thank you for your help, Keylan!
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PostSubject: Re: Knocking an Opponent Down and Multiple Attacks   Tue 13 Apr 2010 - 8:22

Keylan is right, though I feel I should point out that sometimes you can't roll all of the attack dice at once. If the model has a sword and a dagger, for example, you'll need to keep the dagger roll and the sword roll separate. You can do this either by using different-coloured dice OR by rolling separately. Just remember that, for the purpose of all of the model's attacks, the enemy counts as being in whatever position he was when that model's turn to attack started (e.g., if he was standing when the model started attacking, he still counts as standing when being attacked with any other attacks the model may have).
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PostSubject: Re: Knocking an Opponent Down and Multiple Attacks   Tue 13 Apr 2010 - 10:24

Aye, you just attack the model normally if it's 1v1...Even if you have an attack that strikes last (such as a bite!)...
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squattingmouse
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PostSubject: Re: Knocking an Opponent Down and Multiple Attacks   Tue 13 Apr 2010 - 11:43

We've always ruled the same model that knocks someone down cannot then take them out of action. You need 2v1 for that to work with the first attacker taking the defender down and the second one then putting the boot in.
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PostSubject: Re: Knocking an Opponent Down and Multiple Attacks   Tue 13 Apr 2010 - 17:23

Situation for consideration: 2v1: Mutant I3, with Extra Arm, Double-handed weapon, and club (no Strongman). Darksoul, I3, with mace and dagger. Orc, I2, with club and shield. Orc and Darksoul already in melee; Mutant charges Orc.

Mutant's club goes first; doesn't hit.
Darksoul goes next, stuns Orc.
Mutant's double-handed weapon goes next. What happens?

Per official rules, Mutant must still roll to hit and wound as if the Orc is still standing.

House rule we've adopted to replace this:
When a model takes an HtH attack, if another model has already caused the target to be knocked down or stunned, the attacker gets the benefit of the "warriors knocked down" or "warriors stunned" rule, as appropriate.

By our house rule, the Mutant's double-handed weapon attack automatically takes the stunned Orc OOA, since the Darksoul's attacks previously stunned the Orc.

It may not work for you, but it makes sense to us.
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PostSubject: Re: Knocking an Opponent Down and Multiple Attacks   Tue 13 Apr 2010 - 17:58

It makes perfect sense, and that is how our gaming group does things as well.

As long as ANOTHER model does the knocking down, any remaining attacks on any remaining models count as the target being in whatever current situation he is in. (knocked down, stunned)

But, that is not the official ruling as Wyldhunt says...but who uses straight up official rules anymore?
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PostSubject: Re: Knocking an Opponent Down and Multiple Attacks   Tue 13 Apr 2010 - 18:51

How do you rule it if the possessed stuns the model with its club, and the enemy would normally take its turn it obviously can't, and the possessed attacks with the two-handed weapon.

Honestly I think it might be rare enough for this sort of thing to happen that I would allow attacks that strike at different priorities to overcome the usual requirement of another model to take newly stunned and knocked down models out of combat. I mean what else can do this but a three armed possessed with club and two-hander and saurus warriors?
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PostSubject: Re: Knocking an Opponent Down and Multiple Attacks   Tue 13 Apr 2010 - 18:56

That house rule makes sense, wyldhunt. However, I have never ever seen that situation come up. (Not playing enough mutant and lizzardman warbands, I suppose).

"How do you rule it if the possessed stuns the model with its club, and the enemy would normally take it's turn it obviously can't, and the possessed attacks with the two-handed weapon."

Since it is only the one model attacking, the normal rule should apply, I would think - no bonuses. Striking last is supposed to be a penalty, not a benefit. Wyldhunt's rule takes into account a situation where someone else stuns the model between your attacks.
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Myntokk
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PostSubject: Re: Knocking an Opponent Down and Multiple Attacks   Tue 13 Apr 2010 - 19:44

Wyldhunt's scenario (i.e. one model making attacks with differing initiatives) can also come up in any case where someone is dual-wielding one ithilmar weapon and one regular weapon.

For our purposes (and this may be an unpopular fix amongst some, but hey it works for us) is that attacks are made in initiative order, and when you get to make your attacks you take into account everything that has happened up to that point. So one model could in fact benefit from knocking down or stunning an opponent earlier in the same melee. For instance, if the mutant does stun the orc with his club, and still has an attack with his double-handed weapon, well, tough luck for the orc. To us, this makes sense - the mutant's quick attack has done its damage, and he still has time to finish the poor greenskin off with the slower weapon.

Of course, that's only a house rule, not the official rule as others have stated. And unless the model is making attacks with different initiative values, then we just roll them all at once, of course.

CygnusMaximus wrote:
Keylan is right, though I feel I should point out that sometimes you can't roll all of the attack dice at once. If the model has a sword and a dagger, for example, you'll need to keep the dagger roll and the sword roll separate. You can do this either by using different-coloured dice OR by rolling separately. Just remember that, for the purpose of all of the model's attacks, the enemy counts as being in whatever position he was when that model's turn to attack started (e.g., if he was standing when the model started attacking, he still counts as standing when being attacked with any other attacks the model may have).

One good fix for this (assuming you don't have differently sized or colored dice) is to make the "to hit" roll for one weapon, then the "to hit" roll for the other. After all "to hit" rolls have been made, make the "to wound" rolls for one weapon, followed by armor saves, and then the "to wound" roll for the other, followed by armor saves. Rack up the total number of successful wounds and then roll the injuries altogether.
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PostSubject: Re: Knocking an Opponent Down and Multiple Attacks   Sun 18 Apr 2010 - 9:23

There are a lot of good "house-keeping" ideas here. It is essential that you consider the model's position prior to the attacker making ANY attacks (ie first strike vs initiative or weapon differences.) And the idea of attacking with all your attacks first and then going on to rolls is good, as well.

This will sometimes be complicated by situations where model A is being attacked by model B & C where B has both first strike and regular attacks but C has higher initiative and no one charged. Within the rules, I can not recall an example off hand...so this is simply a warning. Once a model starts attacking, all of its attacks are against the model's starting position, even if the attacks are interrupted.
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Cian Shieldbiter
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PostSubject: Re: Knocking an Opponent Down and Multiple Attacks   Tue 20 Apr 2010 - 7:03

Hi folk, no intention of hi-jacking this thread but it has brought up a question of my own = in recent games versus lizard men one of their models has a tail attack (i think) that strikes after all other attacks, the lizard man player has used this attack to OOA opponents that he KO'd or stunned earlier in the same round. Am i to take it this is wrong ?????

Cian Shieldbiter
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PostSubject: Re: Knocking an Opponent Down and Multiple Attacks   Tue 20 Apr 2010 - 7:06

You cannot wound AND auto-OOA the same model in a turn with a single warrior.

Hence a saurus warriors' bite attack _cannot_ target models which where wounded (in this round) by said saurus warrior.

P21 online rulebook
Quote :
attacking stunned and knocked down warriors
Note that a model with multiple attacks may not stun/knock down and then automatically take a warrior out of action during the same hand-to-hand combat phase. The only way you can achieve this is to have more than one of your models attacking the same enemy. So, if the enemy is stunned/knocked down by the first warrior, he can be hit and put out of action by the next warrior to attack.


Last edited by REminenz on Tue 20 Apr 2010 - 7:58; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Knocking an Opponent Down and Multiple Attacks   Tue 20 Apr 2010 - 7:24

Thanks REminez for the prompt reply and clarification, this is gonna alter the LM tactics huge style i think.

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PostSubject: Re: Knocking an Opponent Down and Multiple Attacks   Tue 20 Apr 2010 - 12:46

(It's a bite, not a tail slap! Razz)

As a lizardman player myself, we ruled it to where we cannot take the opponent OOA with the bite if you are in combat alone with it. But if someone else knocks down the Saurus' opponent, then his bite will take the opposing model OOA.

That is the way we ruled it.

Say Saurus attacks with his sword, misses. Skink attacks with his club, knocks down opponent. We then rule it that the Saurus' final bite can take the opponent OOA. As he seizes the opportunity to eat his down opponent!
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PostSubject: Re: Knocking an Opponent Down and Multiple Attacks   Tue 20 Apr 2010 - 16:39

"Hence a saurus warriors' bite attack _cannot_ target models which where wounded (in this round) by said saurus warrior."

I'd say he can - he just doesn't receive any benefits from the target being stunned or knocked down. You don't lose the attack - since the target has lost his, the bite occurs basically in the same sequence as the other attack(s). It is always possible the bite will put the target OOA anyway.

In the case of multiple lizzards on the same target, Figgy's house rule makes sense.
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PostSubject: Re: Knocking an Opponent Down and Multiple Attacks   Tue 20 Apr 2010 - 16:56

mweaver wrote:
"Hence a saurus warriors' bite attack _cannot_ target models which where wounded (in this round) by said saurus warrior."

I'd say he can - he just doesn't receive any benefits from the target being stunned or knocked down. You don't lose the attack - since the target has lost his, the bite occurs basically in the same sequence as the other attack(s). It is always possible the bite will put the target OOA anyway.

In the case of multiple lizzards on the same target, Figgy's house rule makes sense.

Agreed, the OOA is just not automatic.
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PostSubject: Re: Knocking an Opponent Down and Multiple Attacks   Tue 20 Apr 2010 - 17:09

As per the rules the OOA would not be automatic, but we houserule those things. As long as an allied model takes down the enemy model, and you still have attacks, we let the OOA go through.

However, it's up to any of the players, as per the rules you cannot take someone out if you start your attacks on the player while he is up..

But I have another situation for you....First, I will introduce the characters.

Grisgris is a Saurus warrior armed with a sword, and his bite attack.
Chiv is a skink armed with a spear and shield.
James is a human armed with a club and shield
Don is a human armed with a club and shield.

Let us say Grisgris the Saurus is in base to base with both James and Don, while Chiv is in base to base with only James.

So far we have the humans flanking Grisgris the Saurus and Chiv the skink assisting Grisgris with James, but nowhere near Don.

Here comes the attack phase, first Don strikes Grisgris and fails to wound, then James, who has the higher initiative (He's fast!) strikes Grisgris and fails to wound.

Now, Grisgris (lets just say he has a higher initiative than Chiv the Skink due to loads of nervous conditions) will return strikes on don and James. He declares his sword attacks on Don and his Bite on James.

Now since the bite stikes last, Chiv the skink will hit James first - stunning him.

Will the bite take him OOA?

I would think so, but it's an interesting question. Per the rules is this possible since he declared his attacks before the skink?

Are we getting too much into the rules to where common sense becomes a better option?

Personally I have always liked to roll with what made sense in situations where the rules were sketchy, but I am at work and bored. So I thought up that scenario.
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PostSubject: Re: Knocking an Opponent Down and Multiple Attacks   Wed 21 Apr 2010 - 16:37

Per the rules; no, he will not be taken OOA as all attacks are arranged at the start and only the order of attacks is changed.

However, I like the reasoning of an assisted kill. It makes sense, as stated.
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PostSubject: Re: Knocking an Opponent Down and Multiple Attacks   Fri 23 Apr 2010 - 11:15

I got a question on the splines mutation.

Code:
Any model in base contact with the mutant suffers an
automatic Strength 1 hit at the beginning of each
close combat phase. Spines will never cause critical
hits.

as the splines hit is not considered as attack and always takes place at the very begining of the close combat phase will the mutant take his enemy ooa if the splines knocked him down or stunned him at the beginning of the same cc-Phase?
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PostSubject: Re: Knocking an Opponent Down and Multiple Attacks   Sun 25 Apr 2010 - 11:44

SiliconSicilian wrote:
Per the rules; no, he will not be taken OOA as all attacks are arranged at the start and only the order of attacks is changed.

However, I like the reasoning of an assisted kill. It makes sense, as stated.

I think, per the rules, Grisgris can get the auto-OOA on James (if the circumstances are right, bear with me here). The rules simply say that "a model with multiple attacks may not stun/knock down and then automatically take a warrior out of action during the same hand-to-hand combat phase."

That seems to all apply to the same target. So since Grisgris didn't stun/knock down James, he can still auto-OOA James in that round. Now, if Grisgris had directed his bit attack at Don then he couldn't have gotten the auto-OOA benefit.

However, the problem with that whole scenario, as I see it, is that Grisgris shouldn't be able to nominate the target of his bite attack until it is time to make the bite attack. The reason being that he is not allowed to target a knocked down/stunned model if there is a standing model in base-to-base, which he can't know until earlier attacks have been made. So, Grisgris can only auto-OOA James assuming that his earlier sword attack took Don down. Otherwise, he's still based by Don, who is standing, and therefore has to attack him instead of James.

Keylan, as it stands I believe that a model could, in theory, benefit from his own spines. However, this may be one of those "spirit of the rule" vs. "letter of the rule" cases, given that the likelihood of the spines inflicting damage with the mutant just standing there is a little ridiculous. I've always assumed that the intention is that, in the midst of combat with a bit spikey thing, there's a fair chance of stabbing yourself on it at some point.
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PostSubject: Re: Knocking an Opponent Down and Multiple Attacks   Today at 6:51

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