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xaeromancer
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PostSubject: Living Rule Book   Sat 10 Apr 2010 - 10:06

I'm looking to get stuck into Mordheim again and I'm wondering what is happening with the Living Rulebooks?

Also, things are beginning to look a little woolly. There are a lot of different warbands for the same group (this is a big issue for Undead variants) and some slightly extraneous ones as well (Gnoblars, Snotlings, etc.)

Is there the will within the community to maintain Mordheim? This is to say, is there an interest in forming a group to attempt to unify the various rules again? This would probably need to involve several of the other Mordheim net-communities, otherwise the project would simply be vanity.

Presenting Mordheim as a self-maintaining games system would, no doubt, go a long way with Games Workshop (after all, it would be a miniatures revenue stream that required no upkeep.) Who knows? That might even mean the various warbands staying in production.
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PostSubject: Re: Living Rule Book   Sat 10 Apr 2010 - 11:05

I think the trend right now is a rather scattered variety of house rules – and many seem quite happy with it. Though the thought is some times appealing...
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PostSubject: Re: Living Rule Book   Sat 10 Apr 2010 - 11:09

Popmouth wrote:
... Though the thought is some times appealing...

...yet unfeasible.

Who should do this anyway? Unless it is official, there is no reason for other players to trust those people any more than themselves so in the end everyone will still check the warbands individually.

I think the rest has been answered on the Yahoo group already. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Living Rule Book   Sat 10 Apr 2010 - 11:57

I think a more manageable and probably universally welcome solution would be first to put together as close to universal an Index as could be managed; with all the rules hacks, warbands, and expansions linked off of it.

Then try to find out which of the above people are using, and get general feedback on them.
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PostSubject: Re: Living Rule Book   Sat 10 Apr 2010 - 12:26

The index and usage survey sounds like an excellent idea. Perhaps a topic on here would be in order?

"Trust" would be garnered by the quality of the rules. Just the same as if it were an actual official game. In fact, this "trust" is part of the reason why I'm broaching the topic. I have no idea how good any of these new warbands are because they are simply posted on the net. Some are thoroughly tested, but not formatted in anyway. Some are well designed PDFs, but utterly unbalanced. Most fall somewhere in between.

The original Living Rulebooks had a development commitee, if I remember rightly. That was established through the SG site and there's no reason why a new commitee couldn't be formed across the major Mordheim sites. All that's needed is the will to work together and move things forward. Also, I believe that there is a grading system in use across some websites showing whether rules are official, unofficial or experimental. A wider adoption of this system would help to organise the multitudes of rules out there.

However, you have a point, if everyone is happy with the current "I CAN HAZ wARBAND" trend, then that's fine. But it makes the three boxed sets that GW still sell (along with the old rulebook) largely irrelevent. My problem with this is that when GW do their next review, they look at what's left of the Mordheim range, see it's not selling and remove it completely.

Having the wacky and experimental warbands, hired swords and settings means that there there is always something fun for one off games, but an organised approach might remind GW that a lot of people still play Mordheim and still buy miniatures for it. Border Town Burning is the best example of this method. But there are numerous examples of poorly typed, badly edited and unbalanced rules on the internet which just give the impression that Mordheim is a dead system.
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PostSubject: Re: Living Rule Book   Sat 10 Apr 2010 - 16:52

xaeromancer wrote:
The index and usage survey sounds like an excellent idea. Perhaps a topic on here would be in order?

"Trust" would be garnered by the quality of the rules. Just the same as if it were an actual official game. In fact, this "trust" is part of the reason why I'm broaching the topic. I have no idea how good any of these new warbands are because they are simply posted on the net. Some are thoroughly tested, but not formatted in anyway. Some are well designed PDFs, but utterly unbalanced. Most fall somewhere in between.

Cianty has written several articles about grading content in Mordheim. These articles can be found in the Letters of the Damned (these can be found on the Tabletop Geeks Mordheim Downloads page). He has also started to follow-through by creating a new version of the Watchtower. This is a very good place to start although I think that there is still a some content missing that would be at level 2 and Cianty has yet to cover miscellaneous rules (e.g. weather, random events, campaign rules, etc). There is obviously no point including level 3 content in the list until it reaches level 2 or above.
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PostSubject: Re: Living Rule Book   Sat 10 Apr 2010 - 17:42

I'm afriad GW won't make no review on Mordheim for quite some time... it just ain't lucrative for them.

Somehow, I'm not sure if there is a point to establish some un-offical offical rules... Most people play with there gaming group, and the game does not depend on such standards, as WHFB does. Though a compendium could be nice, to see how different groups play...
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PostSubject: Re: Living Rule Book   Sun 11 Apr 2010 - 2:40

Yes, I think continuing to expand the Watchtower would be a useful step. By the way, I did collect the various Miscellaneous rules and I think they are actually included in the releases for the Letters of the Damned. I was just too lazy to also add them to the online version here. Embarassed

The Rules Review is still alive by the way. But GW's official statement (or Andy Hall's actually) is that the rules are fine as they are and thus don't need any further revisions. (Now please don't start debating that point here.) However, permission is granted to do FAQ's to deal with existing ambiguities and to provide clarifications. So hopefully there will be an update soon. I just need to get some time to finish the Empire in Flames FAQ...

The best way to contribute to the "trust" level of the warbands is by playing them and providing feedback whenever someone is unsure about allowing them. It is hard to organize something bigger because the Mordheim community is not as unified as you'd might think. Yes, there are a lot of people playing and building now and then. But many of them come and go again and very few are interested in getting involved with the "bureaucratic" aspects. They rather want to play and paint instead. Who would blame them?

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PostSubject: Re: Living Rule Book   Sun 11 Apr 2010 - 4:28

I think GW is rather missing the boat on this one; i.e., with the current popularity in skirmish gaming there is a definite market for an established game in the genre...such as Mordheim or Necromunda. While neither would bring in the profits of 40K or WHFB, they are both potential money makers that would utilize products already in production.
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PostSubject: Re: Living Rule Book   Sun 11 Apr 2010 - 4:50

@DeafNala... I agree entirely. There are six gamers in my group and all of us use GW miniatures nearly entirely but none of us play anything other than Mordheim. Therefore Mordheim has earned GW approx $1000/$2000 from our group that GW wouldn't have earned otherwise.
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PostSubject: Re: Living Rule Book   Sun 11 Apr 2010 - 5:31

@RationalLemming: It's always nice to know I'm not alone in this thingy...although I question the judgement of anyone who would agree with moi. I also haunt the Wyrd Forum; quite a few folks who are now into Malifaux, have mention they used to be into Mordheim/Necromunda/Gorka Morka BUT...there go some long time, established gamers/hobbyists who are satisfying their addiction with non GW stuff.
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PostSubject: Re: Living Rule Book   Sun 11 Apr 2010 - 7:07

Having looked at the Watchtower, it seems fairly reasonable that a "new" Living Rulebook could be compiled from the latest errata and all of the Grade 1 material. Having all of the official-ish material in one place would certainly be useful. If this does turn out to be attractive, then a Grade 2 supplement could be assembled too.

If there is anyway I can help on the Watchtower project, I'd be glad to offer my time; I'm fairly handy with DTP and have a degree in English.

As far as Mordheim being "lucrative," I think Deaf Nala and Rational Lemming make the point best. Mordheim won't ever be lucrative for Games Workshop, because they no longer stock anything for it. There are four warbands listed on the UK website, one of which is the plastic Empire Free Company box. When people are buying Ogres or Lizardmen or Snotlings for their warbands, the revenue of these purchases is seen to be part of a different line. Hence, no one appears to be buying Mordheim stuff.

Personally, I'd like to see Mordheim integrated into the main line a bit more as a fully compatible skirmish campaign system. But there isn't the will at GW to do this, as the current marketing trend is "sell more miniatures" as evidenced by: Apocalypse in 40k, the increasing amount of plastics (a good thing, but a sign of investment by volume) and the move away from skirmish battles in the Lord of the Rings line. You can't blame them as miniatures are their bread and butter, but it does mean the effective death of the specialist games, which were seen to distract from the main lines.
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PostSubject: Re: Living Rule Book   Sun 11 Apr 2010 - 9:10

I think a comprehensive index would be a good idea, but I am dubious about a new "living rulebook". Approaches to the game and play styles vary very widely - some players are fairly conservative changing rules or adding something new (I am in this group), where others will cheerfully make a change that requires a lengthy cascade of additional changes just to re-establish the balance issues created by their first change. A "living rulebook" developed by the "conservatives" would not satisfy the "liberals" nor would a "liberal" rulebook be acceptable to the "conservatives", and a "Dead Armadillo" rulebook would satisfy no one, probably.
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PostSubject: Re: Living Rule Book   Sun 11 Apr 2010 - 9:57

Well, I'm sure Mordheim can be lucrative, it just seems like GW has yet to realise this. Why else are they lacking interest in the game?
And yeah, it would be a lot of tension around the rules; not that it is an argument enough to dismiss the whole idea.
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PostSubject: Re: Living Rule Book   Sun 11 Apr 2010 - 10:51

I think Games Workshop just periodically makes decisions to assert their power: "Outsource the RPGS!" "But Dark Heresy has sold out before it's even released" "OBEY MY WILL!"

The situation with the specialist games (and the somewhat return of Space Hulk) seems to fall under this catergory.

Quote :
Approaches to the game and play styles vary very widely
Quote :
it would be a lot of tension around the rules

Yeah, therein lies the problem. The game is dividing up, rules that once applied universally don't anymore. Coreheim being something of an example, it's not the game that was on the Specialist Games site, it's not the same rules in book that you buy from GW. If someone learns the game with the Coreheim rules, then when they play a game against someone with the Living Rulebook or a physical copy from GW, they'll get a lot of contradictions and may think their opponent is trying to pull something.

House rule what you want, but we all need to be playing off the same book, never mind page.

The Living Rulebooks were reviewed thoroughly, though, if I remember rightly. If something causes cascades in the balance, then it's not a good change and it wouldn't go in. What I'm talking about is looking at things in a broader, more forward minded way. Rather than building another warband for something that already has two or three different versions, maybe getting together with the other authors online and working it through from what would be a grade 3 project to a grade 2.

When you use the word "liberal," that's a polite way of saying "lunatic fringe," right? No one is ever going to be completely happy. You'll get people complaining "Yeah, the new rules for charging might work for all the other warbands, but my Snotling Pump Wagon has been nerfed." Not that I'm suggesting new rules for charging in anyway. Also, that almost came out as a Snotling Pimp Wagon, which is something else entirely.

The aim would be to change as little as possible, certainly nothing in the grade 1a or 1b band at this point, but to bring grade 1c and 2 more into line and maybe even see about developing grade 3 material to grade 2. And to bring everything back together in one file.

What I have in mind eventually, is something like Templar_Knight's Ultimate Rulebook, but with ongoing corrections and a disinction between Official, Unofficial and Experimental Rules.

Is this something people would want? A growing compendium of the various settings, warbands, hired swords and equipment. It might take a fair amount of work to edit up, but I'd be willing to do it and, hopefully, others would be too.
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PostSubject: Re: Living Rule Book   Sun 11 Apr 2010 - 11:15

Popmouth wrote:
Well, I'm sure Mordheim can be lucrative, it just seems like GW has yet to realise this. Why else are they lacking interest in the game?
And yeah, it would be a lot of tension around the rules; not that it is an argument enough to dismiss the whole idea.

I really think the key to making money with Mordheim would be through scenery, not so much through models. If GW released some modular Tudor-style ruined buildings like the 40k Cities of Death buildings, I think they'd make quite a haul from the Mordheimers out there.

As far as rules are concerned, I've actually thought for some time that it would be a good idea for Forge World to take over the specialist games. I would love to see a "Fishe & Apple Core" pack as well as some new models, upgrades, etc. and these will never be released through GW. Forge World even prints rulebooks from time to time and so could reprint the rulebook every X number of years. There are even rumours that Forge World is forming a "Fantasy division" which (I hope) leads to this becoming a reality.

I don't give it much of a chance, but I have my fingers crossed nonetheless!
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PostSubject: Re: Living Rule Book   Sun 11 Apr 2010 - 11:49

GW has said pretty firmly that there will be a fantasy Forge World. So we may see some Mordheim-applicable stuff coming out.

Creating new warbands is different than changing the rules. I could see a system set up where groups could playtest and report on warbands and how well they compare to official warbands.
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PostSubject: Re: Living Rule Book   Sun 11 Apr 2010 - 12:00

CygnusMaximus wrote:


I really think the key to making money with Mordheim would be through scenery, not so much through models. If GW released some modular Tudor-style ruined buildings like the 40k Cities of Death buildings, I think they'd make quite a haul from the Mordheimers out there.

that is a amazing idea !!!! i would buy them if they came out!
i think that if they made model kits specificialy for mordheim that would be very good, i find having to buy loads of different kits just to make one warband very expensive, i have started using bits companys now, there cheaper and you can almost all ways get the stuff you need.
i would love a possessed plastic kit! that would be EPIC.
(sorry for my ramblings, i will start a new thread for stuff like this)

rules-wise, i like the rule book as it is, using house rules and fan made scenarios, hired sords and stuff like that.
over all i am happy with the current rules, but if you would like to make a living rulebook then go ahead, i dont mind. Smile

(p.s. CygnusMaximus, i would love to see a fish and apple core set!!! Very Happy )
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PostSubject: Re: Living Rule Book   Sun 11 Apr 2010 - 12:18

Bit off-topic, but:

There was a range of medieval-y buildings done for Warhammer (a manor, a tower and something else,) but again, that looks like revenue for the Fantasy Battle line. Nice models, though.

I'd be dubious about Forge World simply because I don't like resin. It has all of the weaknesses of plastic or metal and can be carcinogenic as well! Plus it costs a fortune for not much more detail. Which is a real shame because the Forge World terrain are fantastic sculpts, it's just the medium that puts me off.

So, is there a desire for a play testing committee?
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PostSubject: Re: Living Rule Book   Sun 11 Apr 2010 - 13:29

ForgeWorld will do Fantasy stuff (Chaos Dwarfs). They already have a number of Warhammer buildings avialable - how many of them do you have? Their Coaching Inn is fully accessible. And if those are not enough for you, go to Tabletop World and buy more (oh, wait - go there first!). People don't invest in terrain so that is definately not a lucrative option for GW.

Producing rule books is also not a means of making money for GW. Producing another Mordheim (which sells riduclously less minis than Warhammer) is not worth it. They have to invest the same works as for other armybooks/rule books, i.e. develop warbands, create terrain and scenery but they can't see as much. If they sold Mordheim as a skirmish game which solely relies on Warhammer minis, then I guess it could work. But why should they try to take this route when they can just as well sell more armies directly? To please the veterans. Ha. Ha. Ha.... Sad

Compiling a rulebook with the Grade 1 material makes no sense. Why would you squeeze things Core Warbands, Empire in Flames and all the other supplements into one book? That's a pain when it comes to readability. I think all it takes is a proper index to guide you to the relevant rules.

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PostSubject: Re: Living Rule Book   Sun 11 Apr 2010 - 14:22

There are some crazy rumours about 8th Ed fantasy which seem to suggest the same escalation of minis on the table as Apocalypse, so any skirimish support looks like it's way out of the window. These are the same ones that suggest between 18 months and 3 years for the Chaos Dwarves (about time!)

Personally, I like making my terrain as it's relatively simple (compared to fiddly little dudes) and a lot cheaper (if I'm going to spending more on zombies over the next year...) Also, each piece is unique. The cities of death are nice, but they really reflect the theory that everything in the Imperium is built to the same set of templates. Still, they do look nice...

My theory on having one book is kind of the same but opposite. I'd sooner have everything in one place than keep flicking through an index, I'd find a bookmarked PDF preferable to having two or three files open or a bunch of different print outs. That way you have one laptop with a spreadsheet roster and PDF rulebook, boom, you're away. Or an old school rooster and a ringbound folder thats the same everytime you use it.
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PostSubject: Re: Living Rule Book   Mon 12 Apr 2010 - 6:59

cianty wrote:
ForgeWorld will do Fantasy stuff (Chaos Dwarfs). They already have a number of Warhammer buildings avialable - how many of them do you have? Their Coaching Inn is fully accessible. And if those are not enough for you, go to Tabletop World and buy more (oh, wait - go there first!). People don't invest in terrain so that is definately not a lucrative option for GW.

I should have made it more clear that my opinion is that Games Workshop proper should produce plastic Empire ruins because they could be used both for Mordheim and Warhammer. I can't say they'd sell incredibly well, but I'd be very surprised if they didn't turn a profit.

I was separately expressing my desire for Forge World to update the models and maybe consider making a few bits packs, maybe updating the rules every half decade. Some "official" support is better than no support at all (in my opinion). The models would be expensive, but I personally feel that would be offset by the small number of models needed to play the game.


cianty wrote:
Compiling a rulebook with the Grade 1 material makes no sense. Why would you squeeze things Core Warbands, Empire in Flames and all the other supplements into one book? That's a pain when it comes to readability. I think all it takes is a proper index to guide you to the relevant rules.

I agree wholeheartedly with you there (and thank you for the helpful index you have posted in the resources section - it is incredibly helpful)!
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PostSubject: Re: Living Rule Book   Mon 12 Apr 2010 - 7:00

DeafNala wrote:
@RationalLemming: It's always nice to know I'm not alone in this thingy...although I question the judgement of anyone who would agree with moi. I also haunt the Wyrd Forum; quite a few folks who are now into Malifaux, have mention they used to be into Mordheim/Necromunda/Gorka Morka BUT...there go some long time, established gamers/hobbyists who are satisfying their addiction with non GW stuff.
I've been more into Malifaux than Mordheim lately (but I've been super busy so I haven't had a chance to do much of either all that often). Both are awesome though, and I haven't completely stopped with Mordheim.

I like the idea of GW releasing Mordheim terrain... but at the same time I know how expensive GW stuff is so I'd probably never purchase it. They used to sell river sections that were unpainted and really simple for about $30. I just couldn't justify spending all that money for terrain when I could make it myself for much cheaper.
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PostSubject: Re: Living Rule Book   Mon 12 Apr 2010 - 7:35

The new Ruins of Osgiliath look good, but not so much the price:

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1030017&prodId=prod700002a
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PostSubject: Re: Living Rule Book   Mon 12 Apr 2010 - 7:37

I don't really see GW's "bigger is better" philosophy working, at least on this side of The Pond. There used to be 4 GW shops in the NY Metropolitan area...now there's 1. On my way to Horseshoe Bay we stopped in Katy for my first visit to a GW shop...it was closed/out of business. If these are signs of the way things are going, it might be wise for GW to review their game plan.
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