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 Talabheimer Warband Ideas?

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wyldhunt
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PostSubject: Talabheimer Warband Ideas?   Wed 7 Apr 2010 - 18:55

We've often thought about the decisions to include certain groups yet not others in Mordheim, from a story standpoint. There are some strong opinions out there, such as the stringent "Elves shouldn't be here!" Contradicting are others, such as perhaps "A Bretonnian Knight Errant could make it to Mordheim." We've seen some very strange inclusions from the Town Cryers, such as Amazons, where more obvious inclusions, such as Talabheim, were omitted. We've seen some some "counts as" (the popular Tileans as Marienburgers), along with some very different warband write-ups which possibly could have used "counts as" just as well (the Ostlanders and Kislevites). However, one thing that does stand out - why not have all the Empire provinces potentially represented in some fashion?

Let's review what has been provided: Averlanders, Gunnery School of Nuln, Hochland Bandits, Marienburgers, Middenheimers, Reiklanders, Ostermarkers, Ostlanders, Outlaws of Stirwood, and Undead.

Why no Talabheimers or Talablechlanders?

Since Talabheim is one of the prime parties interested involved in the internecine Imperial conflict, it seems like they would send mercenaries to Mordheim just as Marienburg and Reikland are doing.

I cannot see the Horned Hunters going to Mordheim, so I'm loathe to use them for Talableclanders.

I'm hesitant to resort to Talabheimers being "counts as" since all the others have their own warband list and special flavor. Yes, some of the flavors seem weak (Ostermarkers especially), but they were still given consideration.

So, how to make Talabheimers different, within the current bounds of "balance," and fun to play?

Killer Shrike is the only place I know of to already make a Talabheimer warband, as part of his overall Human Mercenaries setup: http://www.killershrike.com/Mordheim/NewWarbands/Mercenaries.aspx. However, I can't corroborate his statement "The city state of Talabheim is renowned for its fine swordsmen," so I'm not sure whether to follow it.

Hey, Empire/Mordheim fluffmeisters, how would you make a Talabheimer warband that could be considered a different list from what already exists? I'm not looking for extreme, just different enough to call it its own. Should I go with the "fine swordsmen" setup of Killer Shrike, some noble-financed "Hunting Party" idea, or something else?
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PostSubject: Re: Talabheimer Warband Ideas?   Wed 7 Apr 2010 - 19:56

From Warhammer-Empire--

http://www.warhammer-empire.com/library/guide/talabecland.php

http://www.warhammer-empire.com/library/guide/talabheim.php

Killershrike is just working through the provinces and finding ways of differentiating among them. His is as good an idea as any.

You are right. The Ottila would have representatives in Mordheim if her rivals do.
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PostSubject: Re: Talabheimer Warband Ideas?   Wed 7 Apr 2010 - 20:04

I tried to make a warband list for each of the provinces not currently represented in Mordheim, but I never finished. You can check it out on this forum here
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PostSubject: Re: Talabheimer Warband Ideas?   Thu 8 Apr 2010 - 5:31

Wicked, I've been thinking about a Talabheim warband. I was thinking about how they could be represented with an existing list though for the meantime and to make them tourney legal. This is what I was thinking:

Reiklanders seems like the obvious choice for me, lots of discipline to represent the authoritarian society of Talabheim city, increased BS marksmen to represent the huntsmen of the forests of Talabecland.

Model wise the warriors and swordsmen would be represented by state troops in the city's colours (Red and White), Marksmen could be represented by huntsmen/empire militia models in more rural get-up. Ideas for heroes include a champion modeled to represent a Knight from on of the houses that has a strong presence in the city (eg: Knights of the Blazing Sun), a military style leader in state uniform.
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PostSubject: Re: Talabheimer Warband Ideas?   Thu 8 Apr 2010 - 5:34

Joker2and53 wrote:
I tried to make a warband list for each of the provinces not currently represented in Mordheim, but I never finished. You can check it out on this forum here

Just had a quick scan. I really like your ideas, particularly for Hochland. Theyre not too over the top and fit the balanced variation on a basic formula that the original three merc warband lists were based on!
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PostSubject: Re: Talabheimer Warband Ideas?   Thu 8 Apr 2010 - 5:43

interesting idea, talab is a cool province

i dont know how detailed you want to make them, the new empire book says that it is considered great luck to dip a standard in the river talabec

so maybe a standard bearer who allows ONE (maybe two) re-roll per game for one friend within 12" as well as making friends within 12" immune to all alone

are there beastmen in talab, or merely hochland?

iirc they worship myrmidia, don't they? how about something that makes champions immune to fear?

i think they should play like no other warband. giving them extra bs just makes them reiklanders
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PostSubject: Re: Talabheimer Warband Ideas?   Thu 8 Apr 2010 - 5:52

Asp wrote:
i think they should play like no other warband. giving them extra bs just makes them reiklanders

Yeah it would be cool to have a new list for them. I don't mind using Reiklanders for the moment though, the modelling and fluff as well as the starting equipment can go along way in making the warband thematic I think!

For considerations for a new list how about a 40k Commisar style punishment for fleeing henchmen?

"Laws are more draconian than elsewhere in The Empire, with public mutilation and execution a regular spectacle in the busy market squares" - From Warhammer-empire.com
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PostSubject: Re: Talabheimer Warband Ideas?   Thu 8 Apr 2010 - 6:01

Additionally, Talabheim is built in a giant crater, possibly from a comet isn't it? maybe that could be used in the fluff to suggest a possible religious or academic interest in visiting Mordheim, another comet sight?
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PostSubject: Re: Talabheimer Warband Ideas?   Thu 8 Apr 2010 - 6:11

other ideas

Assuming that the standard setup is:
Captain = All skills
Champions = Combat, Shooting, Strength
Youngblood = Combat, Shooting, Speed

Nordland = Hates Elves, +1 to rarity rolls (coastal province), may deduct -5 gc from the upkeep of any one hired sword, down to a minimum of 1gc (cosmopolitan province)

Hochland = Hates Beastmen, Captain may use Long Rifle. Captain starts with a Long Rifle that cannot be sold (but may be swapped or robbed). May have 0-2 Wardogs at 20gc.

Wissenland = Hates Orcs & Goblins, Line Infantry: Swordsmen replace 'Expert Swordsman' with 'Expert Halbardier': Strikes first with Halberds in the same manner as Spear

Nuln = Champions may take Academic, Champions and Captain may use any Blackpowder Weapon.

Stirland = Swordsmen may use Rope & Hook even though they are Henchmen, Marksmen may ignore the "Move & Fire"-penalty when using Long Bows.
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PostSubject: Re: Talabheimer Warband Ideas?   Thu 8 Apr 2010 - 6:30

With Von Kurst's response, I am leaning more towards the Swordsmen setup, but not quite like Killer Shrike envisioned - Expert Swordsmen by itself isn't enough to build a warband around.

Joker2and53, I get where you're coming from on the numbers, though a lot of Talabheim/Talablecland stories talk about how depopulated the province is during the time of Mordheim.

One thing I've envisioned about Mercenaries going to Mordheim is that they are not the "regulars" of the provinces, but more like real-world privateers and adventurers. The provincial regulars seem to be tied up in state battles and defense, leaving only small groups to go to Mordheim. For that reason, I'd more see a noble-financed Hunting Party from Talabheim rather than an official standard-bearer.

The fluff I read online about Talabheim is that they're primarily beholden to Taal, with Ulric pulling a close second. They're also very traditional, to the point of it restricting their future growth.

A good line could be made between the lesser-gentry heroes and peasant henchmen here, like the Bretonnians have. So Champions and Captain with Expert Swordsman, a regular Youngblood, and a Priest of Taal. Henchmen would be 0-5 Marksmen, 0-5 Ostlander-style Ruffians, and Warriors. Give the heroes the same skill lists as Ostlanders (minus the Special list); give the youngblood only Combat and Speed.

This list would allow balance, and be different enough from Ostlanders. It may still need some tweaks, such as using the Horned Hunters' Drunken Gang rather than the Ostlander Ruffians, and allowing the Captain's Warhound. However, rather than that last, I'd rather allow the Talabheim Captain to purchase a Hawk, which would give the ability to automatically see one or more Hidden models each turn (I'm probably stealing that idea from somewhere, though I can't place where right now...).

Thanks for the replies, all!
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PostSubject: Re: Talabheimer Warband Ideas?   Thu 8 Apr 2010 - 6:33

do post here when you have the warband mapped out (including prayers of taaaaaaaaaal)
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PostSubject: Re: Talabheimer Warband Ideas?   Thu 8 Apr 2010 - 17:21

Alright, so here's v1:

Talabheimer Hunting Party

A Talabheimer Hunting Party is a human mercenary warband.
A Talabheimer Hunting Party warband may have up to 15 members.

Special Rule:

Deserters will be flogged! If a Talabheimer henchman (not hero) leaves by fleeing the board (as a result of failing All Alone tests or other sources which cause him to run away), consider the henchman as taken out of action, with a Serious Injuries result to determine whether he survives the resulting punishment.

Heroes

Mercenary Captain
-This warband must begin with exactly 1 Mercenary Captain. He is the warband's leader.
-Skill lists: Academic, Combat, Shooting, Speed, Strength
-Equipment list: Mercenaries
-Cost: 60, XP: 20
-Starting profile: M4, WS4, BS4, S3, T3, W1, I4, A1, Ld8
-Starting abilities: Leadership (6), Expert Swordsman

Champion
-This warband may have up to 2 Champions.
-Skill lists: Combat, Speed, Strength
-Equipment list: Mercenaries
-Cost: 35, XP: 8
-Starting profile: M4, WS4, BS3, S3, T3, W1, I3, A1, Ld7
-Starting ability: Expert Swordsman

Priest of Taal
-This warband may have up to 1 Priest of Taal.
-Skill lists: Academic, Combat, Speed, Strength
-Equipment list: Mercenaries
-Cost: 45, XP: 12
-Starting profile: M4, WS3, BS3, S3, T3, W1, I3, A1, Ld7
-Starting abilities: Prayers (Prayers of Taal see Ostlander warband), Strictures (see ability under Priest of Taal in Ostlander warband)

Youngblood
-This warband may have up to 1 Youngblood
-Skill lists: Combat, Speed, Strength
-Equipment list: Mercenaries
-Cost: 15, XP: 0
-Starting profile: M4, WS2, BS2, S3, T3, W1, I3, A1, Ld6

Henchmen

Marksmen
-This warband may have up to 7 Marksmen.
-Equipment list: Marksmen
-Cost: 25, XP: 0
-Starting profile: M4, WS3, BS3, S3, T3, W1, I3, A1, Ld7

Warriors
-This warband may have any number of Warriors.
-Equipment list: Mercenaries
-Cost: 25, XP: 0
-Starting profile: M4, WS3, BS3, S3, T3, W1, I3, A1, Ld7

Ruffians
-This warband may have up to 5 Ruffians.
-Equipment list: Ruffians (from Ostlander Warband)
-Cost: 25, XP: 0
-Starting profile: M4, WS2, BS2, S3, T3, W1, I2, A1, Ld10
-Starting abilities: Drunk, No Respect (both abilities detailed under Ruffians in Ostlander warband)

Special Equipment, available only to the Talabheimer Captain: Trained Hawk, 30gc, rare 8. This hawk flies high above the battlefield, sometimes swooping down to alert the Talabheimer Captain to where an enemy lies in wait. During each turn, the Talabheimer Captain may choose a single enemy model, which immediately loses its hidden status.

-----

Analysis: the warband is an amalgam of an altered Middenheimer warband and an Ostlander warband, with two Talabheim-specific tweaks thrown in.

1. Middenheimer Captain/Champion +1 Strength is swapped for Expert Swordsman. This possibly makes the warband weaker, as it more likely ties these three heroes to using swords.

2. One Youngblood is swapped for a Priest of Taal - note that this definitely makes the warband stronger. (The Priest of Ulric option allowed Middenheimers is a Champion replacement, not a Youngblood replacement.)

3. The Middenheimer access to Wolf Cloaks is removed, but so is the fluff-only restriction from helmets. Overall, this makes the warband a little weaker.

4. The skill lists for Captain/Champion/Youngblood are as per Middenheimers; the Priest of Taal skill lists are as per Ostlanders (minus the special skill list).

5. Swordsmen are swapped for Ruffians.

6. No Ostlander skills, no Ogre and no access to double-barrelled weapons from Ostlanders, but no Hired Sword restrictions and starts with five heroes (four of which can be considered strong).

7. Costs and XP kept from sources.

8. Addition of special equipment to help against hidden models (will sometimes help); addition of Deserters will be flogged (will very rarely hurt).

On paper, seems balanced, just different enough from the source warbands, and true to what a Talabheim warband would be in Mordheim. It should feel very close to an Ostlander warband, but a bit "richer," since it has a noble's backing.

Whatchy'all think? Good, bad, lacking in flavor? What adjustments would you make, or would you play as-is?
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PostSubject: Re: Talabheimer Warband Ideas?   Fri 9 Apr 2010 - 2:14

I think instead of having the hawk completely remove hidden status, you might have it allow the owner to shoot a hidden model, maybe only on a successful die roll.

I don't think I'd ever remember the flogging rule. Wouldn't ruffians get locked up quick in to a place with draconian law? I guess maybe that's why went on an adventure to Mordheim?

Seems balanced enough to me. Trade a youngblood for a caster, lose WS4 troops and other usual merc bonuses. The expert swordsmen thing seems kind of odd, but if the place is renowned for expert swordsmen then sure why not.
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PostSubject: Re: Talabheimer Warband Ideas?   Tue 13 Apr 2010 - 16:09

Meh, I don't really think this offers anything fresh. Might as well pick up a standard mercenaries warband from those already published. What's enjoyable about each mercenary group is that they have their own individuality. There isn't much of anything new to offer the game from the identity of the Talabecland province background.

This was indeed considered & debated as part of the Nemesis Crown for Mordheim development. In the end the suggestion that was popular was that instead of replicating the existing merc template (again!) we should create a more primal rendition of the hunter warband archetype. The Horned Hunters were the most evocative party of Heroes hailing from Talabheim. Religious zealots (akin to the Witch Hunters) they offered a dramatic foil to brigands in the territory, Outlaws (of Stirwood) and the new banditti rules, namely the Bandits (of Hochland) which Mark Havener had been sitting on ever since the aborted Karak Azgal commissioned release for Mordheim.

If you don't like to take the Horned Hunters to Mordheim then fair enough though.

I haven't spend much time in the ruins of late. All that physical adventuring along the Silk Road has retired me to my study to researching from dusty tomes. I will yet be returning to the streets to do battle once again, only this time, it will not be in the city of Mordheim. All of the wyrdstone & treasure has been looted there already! My warbands now seek more lucrative deals, opulent wares & secret deals...

Regards,

Werekin.

B-)
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PostSubject: Re: Talabheimer Warband Ideas?   Tue 13 Apr 2010 - 17:13

hero and werekin, thank you for your responses. What you've both said are all true points. I guess if I'm to give the Talabheimers their own flavor, I'd really need to research and dig into Talabheim some more.

Regarding the Horned Hunters, of course I could take them to Mordheim, but it wouldn't honor the warband fluff, especially not the Drunken Gang. That could be changed for the setting, but would a bunch of nature wardens really want to search a ruined city for wyrdstone instead?

The hawk is modeled of the Pirates' Spyglass, but costing more and more powerful. Perhaps a roll to spot (4+) is in order, but I wouldn't want to water it down any more than that.

The flogging rule is purely an attempt to get the "draconian law" fluff somewhere in the warband rules in a way that doesn't truly hurt the warband's viability. It's the only way I could see a far-away home's laws extending into Mordheim. However, we hardly ever remember to enforce All Alone, so this rule would be only there for the reading, not the applying. So it should go away, and not be replaced.

I'll change those two items, and if any of our players wants to have a warband from Talabheim, let him. It won't really be a unique warband, but it won't be quite a "counts as," and at least it will be true enough to Talabheim fluff.

werekin, weren't you working on something for Mordheim sewers and tunnels? Or did the lure of better adventuring locations turn you from this path?

One of these days, I'll also leave the Mordheim setting, for either Sartosa or Albion. Of course, Sartosa would be for pirates! However, Albion does have some strange draw for me. Before I do, I must finish my own Mordheim work, which I hope to do this calendar year.
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PostSubject: Re: Talabheimer Warband Ideas?   Tue 13 Apr 2010 - 20:00

Given the animosity towards the Cult of Sigmar amongst the laymen of Talabecland, what about giving certain members of the warband (I'm thinking Ruffians and the Priest of Taal) Hatred towards Sisters of Sigmar, Witch Hunters, and Warrior Priests (incl. both the hired sword and heroes from witch hunter/bandit warbands)?
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PostSubject: Re: Talabheimer Warband Ideas?   Wed 14 Apr 2010 - 6:08

Power is to be had in the vast archives of Warhammer source materials as always. Your forum handle always reminds me of Orion and the Wild Hunt! If the elven 'Hunt' goes rampaging across a few Bretonnian farm holdings then I don't see why the feral Talabecland crusaders can't be commissioned outside of their local region. Heh heh. Everyone deserves a vacation! Wink

Seeing as your profile pic is rather piratey (that you!?) then I can see the call of the Seas is strong with you. A trip to Albion would be short-lived seeing as the limited supplement is only a mini-campaign. It sounds like you have your hands full cleaning the streets of the City of the Damned right about now though! Still I haven't forgotten your intuitive comments concerning a certain warp-dust contraband substance Wyldhunt... and of course I will spill my guts about what else has been brewing in the dark recesses of my mind as a result of way too many hours of reading & research, when the timing is suitable. See you then sir.

Oh and for the likes of Mr Myntokk and any other curiously hooded zealot types out there, salvation is at hand. Marauding forces of Chaos beware! My religious studies are completed and I have just to work through the final draft papers with everybody's favourite Mordheim heretic.

Regards,

Werekin.
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PostSubject: Re: Talabheimer Warband Ideas?   Wed 14 Apr 2010 - 11:06

How very cryptic.
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PostSubject: Re: Talabheimer Warband Ideas?   Thu 15 Apr 2010 - 10:37

too many skill lists on the priest
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PostSubject: Re: Talabheimer Warband Ideas?   Thu 15 Apr 2010 - 11:10

Too many skill list on which priest Aspy?
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PostSubject: Re: Talabheimer Warband Ideas?   Thu 15 Apr 2010 - 14:17

taaaaaaaaaal
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PostSubject: Re: Talabheimer Warband Ideas?   Thu 15 Apr 2010 - 14:30

Those are exactly the same skills the Priest of Taal has in the Ostlander list...

In fact, it seems all of the rules for the Priest of Taal in this list were pulled directly from the Ostlander list.

Personally, I wouldn't have a problem with him having access to that many skill types.
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PostSubject: Re: Talabheimer Warband Ideas?   Thu 15 Apr 2010 - 14:45

imo drunken and draconian contradicts itself
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PostSubject: Re: Talabheimer Warband Ideas?   Thu 15 Apr 2010 - 14:59

Merriam-Websters wrote:
Draconian: of, relating to, or characteristic of Draco or the severe code of laws held to have been framed by him
2 : CRUEL; also : SEVERE

I suppose that would depend on the law, really. My feeling is that draconian law that didn't forbid intoxication would contribute to excessive drunkenness.
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PostSubject: Re: Talabheimer Warband Ideas?   Thu 15 Apr 2010 - 18:14

but not in the field?
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