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 More Wood Elf Rules! Shadow Dances of Loec and Kindreds

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PostSubject: More Wood Elf Rules! Shadow Dances of Loec and Kindreds   Mon 22 Mar 2010 - 19:53

I'm wondering what you all think of this skill list for a Wardancer. Note that these are skills in the normal sense, they are permanent and a model can have all of them active at once. I'm just wondering if anyone would bother to take them.

Also I'm wondering if anyone has played at all with the sort of Shadow Dances of Loec where you choose only one to use per turn; is it interesting, fun or just annoying?




SHADOW DANCES OF LOEC SKILLS

Whirling Death: Each strike of a Wardancer's blade is made with uncanny precision, capable of finding the tiniest gaps in an opponents armor. A model with this skill always has an extra -1 modifier to any armour save the enemy has to take against wounds they inflicted.

Storm of Blades: The Wardancer rains blow after blow upon the opponent, faster than the eye can see. Attacks from a model with this skill cannot be parried.

Shadows Coil: With agile grace the Wardancer evades the clumsy attacks of their enemies. A model with this skill causes Fear.

Woven Mist: The sinuous movements of this dance distract and confuse the enemy. A model with this skill rolls 3d6 and two when attempting to leave combat.

Additionally, for Woven Mist, I was considering something like "on a double choose one enemy in close combat with the Wardancer. The warrior takes one automatic hit from the Wardancer (or at the Wardancer's strength or maybe flat S3?) resolved as normal. Or maybe it hits all enemies in CC with the wardancer Twisted Evil




While I'm at it I might as well ask for opinions on some Kindreds. This isn't an original idea, and is based heavily on the High Elf Honors from Styrofoamking's Sartosa Lothern Sea Patrol warband.

Basically it works by allowing the purchase of Kindreds for heroes when recruited. All heroes start off with general wood elf profiles, the leader has an addition WS, I, and LD, and Kindreds are used to specialize.




WOOD ELF KINDREDS
Upon recruitment, any Wood Elf Hero may purchase one and only one kindred. Each kindred has its own bonuses, though some carry drawbacks as well. They may only purchase one when first recruited.


Vengeance Kindred 5
The model has Hatred against the first enemy it charges each game. Once per game, if an enemy model is in charge range and can be charged the model must charge the enemy model.

Eternal Kindred 10
If the model can parry and is not knocked down or stunned, it may parry one attack against any friendly model within 1" each turn. This does not grant an additional parry. Additionally, the model may purchase and equip Heavy Armor, and is immune to Fear when intercepting a charge.

Alter Kindred 10
Only one per warband, cannot be the leader. Starts movement and initiative of six, immune to all alone test. The model may run even if an enemy model is within 8" at the beginning of his turn and gains +1 A when not within 6" of any friendly model.

Waywatcher Kindred 15
Only one per warband. Uses the Scout Equipment list, has the Infiltration skill. Shooting at the Waywatcher suffer an additional -1 if the Waywatcher has cover. Models attempting to spot a hidden Waywatcher half their initiative. The Waywatcher may never use armor of any kind or carry any close combat weapons that require two hands.

Wardancer Kindred 15
Gains +1 WS and starts with the Fey Quickness skill. Cannot use ranged weapons or armor of any kind and cannot increase his ballistic skill. Gains access to Shadow Dances of Loec skill list.

Wild Hunter Kindred 20
The model starts with 4 Strength. In addition he starts off with a great stag pelt: this is a cloak that adds +1 to armour save against missile attacks. Only Wild Hunters may wear it, and if stolen, costs 10gc to replace it (no roll for rarity.) The model loses access to Shooting skills, but may use missile weapons as normal.

Glade Rider Kindred 10
The warrior knows the Riding skill, and may reroll any misses on the turn they charge if mounted. Any mount the warrior rides benefits from the Forest Walkers special rule.

Spellsinger Kindred 10
Only one per warband. The model is a wizard and may learn spells from the Lore of Athel Loren. The model gains access to Academic skills and loses shooting skills but can use ranged weapons as normal.



I think Alter Kindred might be better off as a hiredsword or maybe some kind of downside. What do you guys think?
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PostSubject: Re: More Wood Elf Rules! Shadow Dances of Loec and Kindreds   Wed 24 Mar 2010 - 17:43

I would tend to shy away from the kindreds a little as they seem to encompass too much of the wood elf army. There needs to be reason wood elves are in mordheim (a disgraced prince, young band on a quest to prove themselves against evil etc) player made warbands often get unbalanced by trying to do too much.
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PostSubject: Re: More Wood Elf Rules! Shadow Dances of Loec and Kindreds   Sat 27 Mar 2010 - 8:12

I am currently playing a wood elf warband in a BTB campaign and I'm using the "Revised Wood Elf Warband" rules by Pete Rejowski. I'm sure you're familar with it as the first line of "fluff text" on each skill matches with it.

The wardancer's skills in that ruleset appear to be a bit more powerfull than your suggestions, so I'd probably rather play with those skills. In fact, my wardancer currently has Whirling Death and The Shadows Coil from that list. (As well as Web of Steel, Strike to Injure, and Step Aside.)

However, if I was playing from your skill set, I would be glad to take your versions of Whirling Death and possibly Shadows Coil. I would take Storm of Blades depending on the equipment lists of my opposing warbands. If there were enough parry weapons going against me I'd do it, but I haven't seen enough in the current campaign I'm playing in to justify taking it. Woven Mist is a bit of a tough call. While I'm not opposed to running away when the situation calls for it, I would hope I don't get myself into such a position frequently enough to warrent taking a skill on it. I would definately add the attack back bit you suggest, but only to one of the opposing models, not all of them.

For the benefit of anyone reading, here are rules for the wardancer skills I'm playing from:

Whirling Death
The Wardancer strikes with uncanny precision, capable of causing grievous wounds. The Hero can cause a Critical Hit on a to-wound roll of 5-6, instead of only 6. If he needs a 6 to wound the target, he can still cause a Critical hit on a to-wound roll of 6.

Woven Mist
The sinuous movements of this dance distract and confuse the enemy. The Wardancer reduces his total attacks by one, but always strikes first in combat. This takes precedence over the usual Strike First rule.

Storm of Blades
The Wardancer rains blow after blow upon the opponent, faster than the eye can see. If the model can usually Parry, this skill negates it.

The Shadows Coil
With agile grace and supreme skill, the Wardancer evades the clumsy attacks of his opponent. The model may parry even if not using a weapon that gives the Parry rule. If using a weapon with the Parry rule, he may re-roll a failed parry. Lastly, if using two weapons that have the Parry rule, he may make two parry attempts and re-roll failed parries.


I'm not sure I see the point of the Kindred list, as far as I can tell it's just another way of defining hero types; six of one and half-dozen of the other.
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PostSubject: Re: More Wood Elf Rules! Shadow Dances of Loec and Kindreds   Sat 27 Mar 2010 - 14:07

The kindred thing is very nice but i prefer to use the one from Styrofoaming's list, it seems to me that is a lot more balanced than yours, hero.
Can you post which list are you using for making your warband (hero)?

The Revised Wood Elf Warband rules by Pete Rejowski is way too overpowered for a use in a balanced campaign.
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PostSubject: Re: More Wood Elf Rules! Shadow Dances of Loec and Kindreds   Sat 27 Mar 2010 - 14:30

alveiz wrote:
The Revised Wood Elf Warband rules by Pete Rejowski is way too overpowered for a use in a balanced campaign.

LOL... noted. Smile

I guess it must speak to my lack of gameplaying ability then that I'm pretty much last place in our campaign! Razz
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PostSubject: Re: More Wood Elf Rules! Shadow Dances of Loec and Kindreds   Sun 28 Mar 2010 - 18:32

inkwolf wrote:
alveiz wrote:
The Revised Wood Elf Warband rules by Pete Rejowski is way too overpowered for a use in a balanced campaign.

LOL... noted. Smile

I guess it must speak to my lack of gameplaying ability then that I'm pretty much last place in our campaign! Razz

You've got Dismal Dan and probably Emory too! And all three NPC warbands, that's at least 5th place out of ten. Nothing to be ashamed of.
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PostSubject: Re: More Wood Elf Rules! Shadow Dances of Loec and Kindreds   Mon 29 Mar 2010 - 1:32

Dmig wrote:
I would tend to shy away from the kindreds a little as they seem to encompass too much of the wood elf army. There needs to be reason wood elves are in mordheim (a disgraced prince, young band on a quest to prove themselves against evil etc) player made warbands often get unbalanced by trying to do too much.

The point of the kindreds is to encourage elves into a balance of shooting and melee by providing interesting choices for close combat oriented heroes. Personally I love how flexible it makes the warband listing (which is why I copied it from Styrofoamking) and I've definitely had to rein myself in a lot to keep it from being too powerful; I think I've done an alright job. I was considering requiring heroes to purchase a kindred so they can't opt out and still go for a typical shooting hero band.

As for a reason for the wood elves to be there, that's definitely up to the imagination of the player! Most warbands are in mordheim on the shallow pretenses of "getting rich." I would probably use them in an Empire in Flames setting though.

@inkwolf: Thanks I'll try to revise Storm of Blades and Woven Mist. As a side note most of the skill descriptions are also taken from the wood elf army rule book though I think that was among the lists I looked at for inspiration Razz

@alveiz: really? I tired to make it very similar, can you tell me specifically what seems too strong? I can't really post the list because I'm not finished making it Razz but the base stats for the heroes will be the same as in Styrofoamking's. You know I don't remember why I didn't just include a wizard as a one of the hero choices...

The Alterkin is the one I have the most issue with. I feel like it needs a penalty for being too close to friendly models instead of just gets a bunch of bonuses with no downside. If there is no penalty it's like a freebie stat boost and if the bonus isn't strong enough it won't be worth sending him out alone. At least that's how I see it.
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PostSubject: Re: More Wood Elf Rules! Shadow Dances of Loec and Kindreds   Tue 30 Mar 2010 - 11:48

Storm of Blades
The Wardancer rains blow after blow upon the opponent, faster than the eye can see. A model with this skill may reroll any missed attacks and cannot be parried on the turn it charges.

Too much?

Storm of Blades (it's barrage from the rapier)
A warrior with Storm of Blades rolls to hit and wound as normal. However, if you mange to hit your opponent but fail to wound, you may attack again just as if you had another attack but at 1 to hit (down to a maximum to needing a 6 to hit). You may continue attacking as long as you hit and it is possible to strike your opponent many times, particularly if your warrior has more then one attack on his profile

Barrage with a two-handed weapon too much?



I want to change The Shadows Coil to what you have listed but I'm including a two-sided spear special weapon in my wood elf list. With that version of The Shadows Coil wielding two swords becomes more effective than this weapon for less money. Any ideas about making this weapon interesting and useful without making it super strong? (I'm trying to match up powerwise with the Druchii.net Dark Elf list that has a Draich; a two handed sword without strike-last)

Saearath; 20+2d6 gc; Availability: Rare 7 (Wood Elves only)

Strength: As User
Special Rules: Two-handed, Double-sided, Parry

Two-handed: A model armed with a Saearath may not use a shield, buckler, or additional weapon in close combat. If the model is equipped with a shield he will still get a +1 bonus to his Armor save against shooting.
Double-sided: A warrior armed with a Saearath gets an additional attack.
Parry: A model armed with a Saearath may parry as if equipped with a sword and buckler; It may parry a single attack each turn and re-roll any failed parries once.
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PostSubject: Re: More Wood Elf Rules! Shadow Dances of Loec and Kindreds   Wed 28 Apr 2010 - 3:39

Quote :
@alveiz: really? I tired to make it very similar, can you tell me specifically what seems too strong? I can't really post the list because I'm not finished making it but the base stats for the heroes will be the same as in Styrofoamking's. You know I don't remember why I didn't just include a wizard as a one of the hero choices...
I'm sorry for the late response, I have been very busy to give you feedback.

Quote :

Vengeance Kindred 5
The model has Hatred against the first enemy it charges each game. Once per game, if an enemy model is in charge range and can be charged the model must charge the enemy model.
Very cheap for hatred, and it is way too much. Either increase the cost or remove it. If you used styrofoamking's you would know there is a skill very similar that only gives hatred vs orcs, goblins, beastmen and dark elves (more fluffy)

Quote :

Eternal Kindred 10
If the model can parry and is not knocked down or stunned, it may parry one attack against any friendly model within 1" each turn. This does not grant an additional parry. Additionally, the model may purchase and equip Heavy Armor, and is immune to Fear when intercepting a charge.
I see it unbalancing to have one guy parrying the attacks against any friendly models in the range of 1" or 3cm. I prefer to have one guy intercept people at 10 cm than this.

Quote :

Alter Kindred 10
Only one per warband, cannot be the leader. Starts movement and initiative of six, immune to all alone test. The model may run even if an enemy model is within 8" at the beginning of his turn and gains +1 A when not within 6" of any friendly model.
This one is crazy!. Send a running killing machine to the enemy frontlines alone for just 10 gc. It won't be very uncanny to see one Alter in every woody warband you make.

Quote :

Waywatcher Kindred 15
Only one per warband. Uses the Scout Equipment list, has the Infiltration skill. Shooting at the Waywatcher suffer an additional -1 if the Waywatcher has cover. Models attempting to spot a hidden Waywatcher half their initiative. The Waywatcher may never use armor of any kind or carry any close combat weapons that require two hands.
Very cheap for what it is, gives an additional skill to the waywatcher from styrofoamking (infiltration was optional). And gives you access to the scout equipment list (only both of that would be worth 20-30 gc) in addition it grants an additional -1 when the waywatcher is in cover and makes enemy halve the initiative when trying to spot him. This alter is insane for 15 gc, either nerf this or increase its price to 50 gc (making it viable for a recently upgraded henchman)

Quote :

Wardancer Kindred 15
Gains +1 WS and starts with the Fey Quickness skill. Cannot use ranged weapons or armor of any kind and cannot increase his ballistic skill. Gains access to Shadow Dances of Loec skill list.
Great nerf to the wardancer if you won't let him learn strong build skill, but balanced if you accept the new skills he has. I see no point on starting with Fey Quickness and if you do this, increase the kindred to 35 gc. (A skill is worth 40 gc in scenario rules).

Quote :

Wild Hunter Kindred 20
The model starts with 4 Strength. In addition he starts off with a great stag pelt: this is a cloak that adds +1 to armour save against missile attacks. Only Wild Hunters may wear it, and if stolen, costs 10gc to replace it (no roll for rarity.) The model loses access to Shooting skills, but may use missile weapons as normal.
I think this is the best new addition you made. Nothing to change in my opinion.

Quote :

Glade Rider Kindred 10
The warrior knows the Riding skill, and may reroll any misses on the turn they charge if mounted. Any mount the warrior rides benefits from the Forest Walkers special rule.
This one is ok but what is the Forest Walkers special rule?

Quote :

Spellsinger Kindred 10
Only one per warband. The model is a wizard and may learn spells from the Lore of Athel Loren. The model gains access to Academic skills and loses shooting skills but can use ranged weapons as normal.
I don't like this one, I prefer to have one wizard hero option for 40 gc. Depending on the cost of the hero, i will raise it to make the wizard cost at least 40 or 45gc.

Would you start with 4 or 5 heroes?
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PostSubject: Re: More Wood Elf Rules! Shadow Dances of Loec and Kindreds   Wed 28 Apr 2010 - 9:34

Vengeance only gives hatred for the very first close combat of the game, and it also forces you to charge as a downside. It's not like normal hatred where you reroll hits every time you join a new combat. It's like one-time hatred plus one-time compulsory charge.

Frankly I don't see the issue with the Eternal Kindred. The model can still only parry once per turn, either for himself or for a friend. Honestly I thought this was one of the weaker options.

Alter Kindred I admit is sort of ridiculous. Mostly I was adapting the rules out of the WFB Wood Elf codex, and I was hoping that being alone would get him into enough trouble to justify some bonuses, but I do feel like what he gains is too much and there isn't an actual penalty for being close to friendly models. What about allowing him to reroll one dice per turn when far away from friendly models, the way the highway man and roadwarden do in wagon scenarios? Hah, maybe allow the enemy to reroll one of his dice per turn if he's near friendlies.Razz

For the Waywatcher, yeah I can see this as being a bit much. Again, a little too direct of a transcription from the wood elf codex. It's difficult to image a waywatcher without infiltration, and I guess I just really wanted him to have an advantage in shootouts. You're right, though, my infatuation has got the better of my judgement. Probably change it to a straight copy of the Lothern Ranger Honor.

The Wardancer is really close to the Sword Master from the Lothern Sea Patrol list. They're the same price, both grant +1 WS, BOTH grant a skill (Swordmaster skill removes strike last from two-handed weapons, much better than Fey Quickness imo), but the Wardancer can't wear armor and gets access to the Shadow Dances of Loec skill list. Oh, and both cannot use ranged weapons.

Forest Walker just means they ignore movement penalties for being in forest terrain (surprised elven steeds don't have it by default).

The Spellsinger Kindred is not an idea I'm completely sold on. Basically it allows people to take a wizard, but they don't have too, and if they want they can make the leader the wizard. I don't know how Kosher that is, maybe there is a problem if people don't get it? There could easily just be a wizard hero instead of a third basic hero, but I was caught up in the flexibility I saw in Kindred when I wrote them.

Anyway, the leader is 70 gc, and three other heroes are 50 gc. Purchasing a Kindred adds to the cost of recruiting, so it's not like these heroes with fancy abilities are cheap by any standard. The spellsinger would actually be 60 gc.
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