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REminenz
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PostSubject: Re: W22 House Rules   Mon 22 Mar 2010 - 14:35

I edited the main house rules.
That body armor save against serious injuries changed.
Also slings were tuned down a bit.

Concerning the handgun issue:
Code:
Crossbow against armour 5+: 222 / 74
Crossbow against armour 6+: 266 / 88
The big Handgun modification contestants:
Code:
Weapon Strength 5 & +1 to hit: 236 / 78
Rapid reload & no range modifier: 200 / 66
Rapid reload & +1 to hit modifier: 233 / 77
2 injury rolls: 133 / 74
2 injury rolls & no range modifier: 166 / 92

I agree that keeping the prepared shot special rule is good in order to keep the weapons distinct from each other.

That leaves S5 & +1 to hit and the 2 injury roll modifications.

A thing that the handgun does better than a crossbow is, that you can double your fire rate (hunter) and still lrean the nimble skill.

I am tempted to give it "2 injury rolls & no range modifier" to banalce out the lower cost and lower range. Maybe one could force it to use the blackpowder optional rules then.. Hm..


Last edited by REminenz on Mon 29 Mar 2010 - 14:54; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: W22 House Rules   Mon 22 Mar 2010 - 14:44

Your sling change is close to what my group's is - though we went one step further and removed multiple shots (the things are 2 gc!!). The rationale for this is that the "Fire Twice" ability in Warhammer represents the slinger shooting two stones at once into a tightly-formed regiment. One obviously couldn't do this and even hope to hit anything when shooting (slinging?) at a single human-sized target.

I'd avoid the optional rules for black powder - the chance that your long rifle will explode means that people will often pass up buying one (and the same is true of handguns, even at the discounted rate). What I like to do is use both - people can buy more primitive (human-made) firearms that use the optional rules and are cheaper OR they can purchase reliabe (dwarf-made) versions at full cost.

I just noticed your deployment rules and am curious to know why you chose to do that. Do you have especially tall scenery? Lack of ladders? I've never had a problem with it, to be honest, but I can see how it would be a problem depending on your terrain collection.
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PostSubject: Re: W22 House Rules   Mon 22 Mar 2010 - 17:32

At the risk of introducing yet more items to consider, here is the basis for the missile weapons rules our group is using: http://wyldhaunt.blogspot.com/2009/10/after-various-discussions-on.html - we did end up making Slings S2, but allowing 3gc Sling Bullets at S3 in Miscellaneous Equipment (thus allowing hero slingers to get back to S3). You may want to consider the effects of bows/crossbows/handguns/rifles (muskets) in our rules. Bows/Slings with Quick Shot can shoot fastest, while Crossbows/Handguns shoot 1/2rds (Hunter allowing 1/rd). We did bump up blackpowder Str at short range, though Handguns and Muskets can only be reloaded while stationary (Nimble negates this). A different take overall, but so far in our testing it's holding together.
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PostSubject: Re: W22 House Rules   Mon 22 Mar 2010 - 19:07

REminenz wrote:
ARMOR RULES
The roll of a 1 on an armor save is always a failure.
Body Armor: Armors often save their wearers from fatal wounds. If a warrior was taken out of action during battle, he has to make a warding save equal to his body armors unmodified saving throw before rolling for a serious injury after the battle. If successfull, the wearer must pass a further test to see if the armour withstood the force of the blow and protected the wearer from serious injury. Roll a D6:
On a 1 he gains the serious injury roll of 66 "survives against the odds" but the armour has been destroyed.
On a 2 the warrior rolls for serious injuries like normal but rerolls results of 11-16 and 61-66.
On a 3 the warrior rolls for serious injuries like normal but rerolls results of 11-26 and 61-66.
On a 4-6, the warrior gains the serious injury roll of 55 "full recovery".
Toughened leather does not grant a save against serious injuries.

I like this better. I like that the armour can be destroyed but the warrior survives against the odds (must have been a huge hit to destroy the armour so it makes sense). I also like that the warrior can be wounded still but just not die. Why ignore results of 61 to 66 though as these have nothing to do with the protection offered by armour?

Also, what happens for henchmen? If the armour save is successful then do you roll a D6 and do something like this:
On a 1 the henchman survives but the armour has been destroyed.
On a 2-6, the henchman gains the serious injury roll of 3-6 "full recovery".

Edited to add the following paragraph...
Actually the roll above for henchmen is messy if the henchman is in a henchmen group that are all wearing armour as it would be necessary to split up the henchmen group. My thoughts now are that either henchmen do not get a serious injury save from armour or that the second D6 roll is resolved like this:
On a 1 the henchman still dies.
On a 2-6 the henchman survives.

CygnusMaximus wrote:
Your sling change is close to what my group's is - though we went one step further and removed multiple shots (the things are 2 gc!!). The rationale for this is that the "Fire Twice" ability in Warhammer represents the slinger shooting two stones at once into a tightly-formed regiment. One obviously couldn't do this and even hope to hit anything when shooting (slinging?) at a single human-sized target.
@Reminenz... Our new sling house rules also just add 1 enemy armour save without changing the rest of the rules.

I was just thinking that another option is to allow the second shot to only be aimed at the same target or another target within 3" of the original target which would make the rules similar to the rules for the repeater pistol and repeater handgun from Gunnery School of Nuln in Nemesis Crown. I might do this to prevent the slinger from shooting wildly different targets which is allowed by the current rules.

@Wyldhunt... I'm not interested in changing things as much as you have but your changes to the sling are interesting and I might think about that further also.
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PostSubject: Re: W22 House Rules   Tue 23 Mar 2010 - 7:40

REminenz wrote:
Body Armor: Armors often save their wearers from fatal wounds. If a warrior was taken out of action during battle, he has to make a warding save equal to his body armors unmodified saving throw before rolling for a serious injury after the battle.
If the throw was a success and the warrior is a henchmen add +1 to its serious injury roll.
If the throw was a success and the warrior is a hero roll a further D6 to see if the armour withstood the force of the blow and protected the wearer from serious injury.
- On a 1 he gains the serious injury roll of 66 "survives against the odds" but the armour has been destroyed.
- On a 2 the warrior rolls for serious injuries like normal but rerolls results of 11-16.
- On a 3 the warrior rolls for serious injuries like normal but rerolls results of 11-26.
- On a 4-6, the warrior gains the serious injury roll of 55 "full recovery".
Toughened leather does not grant a save against serious injuries.

Handgun:
Additionally has the terrifying and lethal weapon skills.
Hochland Long Rifle: Additionally has the terrifying and lethal weapon skills. Shots are resolved at strength 5.
Terrifying: If the attacker fails its wounding roll by 1 point, the target which was hit must take an all alone test at the end of the current phase if there are no friendly models within 6" (knocked down, stunned or fleeing friends do not count). See the rulebook for all alone tests.
Lethal: For every wound caused by the weapon, roll two dice when determining the injury and apply the higher result.

House Rules updated to v0.4

Even "Von Kurst" should be satisfield now Smile
Hopefully it plays out well..


Last edited by REminenz on Tue 23 Mar 2010 - 9:11; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: W22 House Rules   Tue 23 Mar 2010 - 8:30

Wow.

Those are some scary handguns! Let me know how the "Terrifying" effect works out when you play.

I suggest changing the rule's name from "Terrifying" to "BOOM STICK!" in homage to Bruce Campbell.
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PostSubject: Re: W22 House Rules   Tue 23 Mar 2010 - 19:30

I have lost track of the course of this thread... but to answer Von Kurst's earlier question to me:

We have not altered anything else which would effect armor values, and use the expanded critical charts. Rather than natural armor saves causing abusively powerful warbands; it is more of my inability to cope with heavily armored troops, or unwillingness to tailor my entire warband to tackle the problem.
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PostSubject: Re: W22 House Rules   Wed 24 Mar 2010 - 17:49

Pathfinder Dubstyles wrote:
We have not altered anything else which would effect armor values, and use the expanded critical charts. Rather than natural armor saves causing abusively powerful warbands; it is more of my inability to cope with heavily armored troops, or unwillingness to tailor my entire warband to tackle the problem.

Gotcha. I usually send the troll. If he can't do anything about it then perhaps he will take some time dying...

I encounter armor on Dwarfs or perhaps a witch hunter type. Mostly Saurus and the like scare me because of their Toughness not their armor, but its just how we play. Our +2 save in hand-to-hand Dwarf Noble just got robbed so it will be awhile before he's a tank again.

REminenz--thanks for the Terrifying rule. Please do let us know how it works out.
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PostSubject: Re: W22 House Rules   Sat 10 Apr 2010 - 17:59

Sooooo... the handgun rule played out good so far. Although the "terrifying" rule has not yet happened, it adds the psychological factor that the enemy cant spread too far in order to prevent those all alone tests.

I edited the first posting and uploaded a proper PDF file for the looks Smile

What do you guys think about it? (Rulewise?)

And I would love to get some input on other warband balancing issues.. Which and how do you balance out specific warbands? Which do you feel are overpowered and need some tuning down?


DOWNLOAD
PDF
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PostSubject: Re: W22 House Rules   Sat 10 Apr 2010 - 23:00

I think they all look good - I do like the "Terrifying" rule for handguns but also feel that it might overcomplicate them a bit. Your House Rules document is quite a bit shorter than mine!

As far as balancing warbands is concerned:

Witch Hunters: I've found that making Zealots count as a half a model for "maximum" total warband members (not the total for upkeep) and route tests helps make more characterful bands (and is in-line with what Mr. Pirinen had hoped to do with them). That way a warband with 5 heroes, 3 flagellants, and two warhounds could include either two more flagellants or hounds OR 4 zealots. It also helps if you allow them to choose from the Witch Hunters' equipment list when they become heroes (to represent their being trained to become a Templar of Sigmar).

Elves: This will probably open a HUGE can of worms, but I like the following three adjustments:
Maximum T of 3.
Starting I of 5.
Near Immortal: Elves are especially long-lived and thus spend their time focused on the smallest and seemingly unimportant nuances of all they do. Because of this, Elves require twice as much experience as normal warriors to gain advances. (The best way to do this is to check each experience box twice before moving to the next.)

I also like to count the Reiklander Marksmen's BS upgrade as the only "+1" that they can get (so they don't get BS 5 henchmen) - but that's more because I got tired of listening to other players complain about my Reiklanders!

Those are the biggest for me - but a lot depends on the other warbands and optional rules you're allowing.
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PostSubject: Re: W22 House Rules   Sun 11 Apr 2010 - 2:06

Thanks a lot for the input!

Like I said previously, the terrifying rule seldomly comes into play since there is usually a friendly model within 6". But you are right in that it adds yet another "measure if a friendly model is nearby" event to the game..
We need some more playtesting to see if the handgun plays out okay during late game.
Personally i like the current ruling quite a lot. Both crossbows and handguns keep their distinct flair..

And thanks for your warband rulings. I will present them to our gaming group and see what we agree on.
Would you mind uploading your house rules document?

Any other warband house rulings out there?
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PostSubject: Re: W22 House Rules   Tue 13 Apr 2010 - 15:31

Sorry for the delay - these rules are constantly changing, so keep that in mind as you go over them!

Also remember that some are just for fun and that I make no claim to having achieved perfect balance (or any semblance of it)!
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PostSubject: Re: W22 House Rules   Thu 22 Apr 2010 - 4:23

I updated the pdf to version 0.6

PLEASE have a look at the current rules (v0.6)!
A new special rule for shields and bucklers was added which grants a (very weakened) extra attack just like dual wielding does.

I have a feeling that this rather slim set of rules could work out very well and would love to hear some thoughts from you guys!

Note that we have not yet tested the shield bash mechanic. (Looking forward to this weekend.. Smile)

If you don't want to download the PDF here is a short version of the key changes:

  • -1 to hit when using two weapons (including weapon + shield)
  • added new combat skill to compensate for that
  • +1 AS on all armor types except toughened leather in hand-to-hand combat
  • shields and bucklers have the shield bash special rule which grants +1A that hits on a fixed 5+ and suffers -2 on injury rolls
  • added new combat skill to make shield bash attacks hit based on WS
  • Critical hits dont ignore armour but rather give a -2 modifier
  • Handguns roll 2 injury dice and may cause and all alone test
  • Same for the Hochland Long rifle but with S5
  • Spears grant +1I in the first round of hand-to-hand combat
The -1 to hit modificator should balance out one-handed and two-handed (spear, morning star, halberd, THW, ..) weapons.
The shield bash special rule should make shields more attractive in comparison to a second weapon.
With shields being more common, the enhanced (+1AS) armours could also be seen more frequently.
And with armour in general more present the axe should also have it's place in game.

Well.. in theory at least Smile

Looking for you input!

Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: W22 House Rules   Sun 25 Apr 2010 - 11:03

Hm it's kinda hard to interpret the non-existence of any replies..
(Like giving an invalid vote for the Bundespräsident Smile)

I'd be even grateful for comments á la "i don't like it." (Giving a reason too would be the cherry on the cake..)

Am I right in the assumption, that most of the readers who didn't reply simply don't like the idea behind giving shields +1A? And therefore don't like the way our house rules are going?
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PostSubject: Re: W22 House Rules   Sun 25 Apr 2010 - 11:21

Starting to seem complicated to me.

I've definitely considered allowing shields bashing, and like what you've done we were going to have it so the shield bash cannot take a model out of action, but we would have them strike last. The fixed hit roll is interesting, but I don't think it would be worth it to get a skill that gives only your shield attack, which cannot take enemies out of action, +1 or +2 to hit.

How does it sound make a successful shield bash always knock the target down without rolling to wound. Way too strong? Doesn't work on large targets or whatever else you want.


What about bucklers? Can they bash?

Is there a good argument against taking bucklers out and just having shields grant parry?
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PostSubject: Re: W22 House Rules   Thu 27 May 2010 - 14:56

DOWNLOAD
PDF here.

current version: v0.7

Key changes:

  • -1 to hit when using two weapons
  • added new combat skill to compensate for that
  • +1 AS on shield and buckler in hand-to-hand combat
  • added new strength skill: shield bash (+1A with -2 on injury rolls, counting as dual wielding)
  • Body armour grants a post battle save on serious injuries
  • Different critical hits effects for each weapon
  • Handguns have +1 on injury rolls and may cause an all lone test
  • Same for the Hochland Long rifle but with S5
  • Spears grant +1I in the first round of hand-to-hand combat
  • Slings give the enemy +1AS
  • Heroic henchman give one henchman groupt +1 exp per game when putting a hero OOA
  • Rabbit's foot is destroyed when the reroll is either 1 or 2


Last edited by REminenz on Tue 1 Jun 2010 - 2:38; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: W22 House Rules   Mon 31 May 2010 - 14:48

Why do you include the -1 when using weapon + shield?
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PostSubject: Re: W22 House Rules   Tue 1 Jun 2010 - 2:38

Whoops, that was just a typo from the previous version >_<

Unless you have learned the "Shield Bash" skill you do NOT suffer -1 to hit when using weapon+shield.

Thanks for pointing that out!
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