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BigEasy1022
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PostSubject: Tricky Item Question   Sat 20 Feb 2010 - 10:29

As we are setting up for a Mordheim campaign at our local GW, a question came up that no one could really answer (including the red shirts). If after the first game, I want to pick up armor that is not normally listed in my warband item chart. Can I use it?

Let's say that my orc big boss wanted to pick up a suit of heavy armor. Now it's not in the warband sheet, however unlike with weapons where you can take the weapon master skill so he can use weapons that he can not normally use, there is no skill he can take to be able to wear armor he normally doesn't have access to.

In the end the question is this: Can an Orc ever take heavy armor (or Gromril/Ithlimar), or is he doomed to never be fully protected and we all know what an unprotected orc can lead to, lots of little orcs Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Tricky Item Question   Sat 20 Feb 2010 - 11:18

From the rulebook:
Quote :
You may buy additional equipment between battles, but your warriors can only use the weapons and armour listed in their warband entry. As they accumulate experience and gain skills, Heroes may learn to use weapons other than those initially available to them.

Unlike for weapons, no exceptions are mentioned for armour. So, if the armour's not on your equipment list, you can't use it later on. For the record, gromril and ithilmar are treated as heavy armour.
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PostSubject: Re: Tricky Item Question   Sat 20 Feb 2010 - 15:43

We agreed to a house rule that allows orcs to wear heavy armor. It seemed odd to us that they could not.
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PostSubject: Re: Tricky Item Question   Sat 20 Feb 2010 - 16:18

mweaver wrote:
We agreed to a house rule that allows orcs to wear heavy armor. It seemed odd to us that they could not.

Agreed, and I like ithilmar being classified as light armour as well.
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PostSubject: Re: Tricky Item Question   Sat 20 Feb 2010 - 19:01

Classifying ithilmar as light armor and gromril as heavy armor seems to be a fairly common interpretation, from what I have seen.
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PostSubject: Re: Tricky Item Question   Sat 20 Feb 2010 - 22:19

Also, we interpret this rule as the availability of an armour is what is represented in the equipment list. Not every warrior can be trained to use a crossbow, not without good training, but anyone can slap on a suit of armour.

As such, we say armour can be used by any and all, but some may get it from the start, others must search for it.
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PostSubject: Re: Tricky Item Question   Sun 21 Feb 2010 - 2:47

Allowing heavy armour for all and sundry doesn't seem right to me. A Skaven assassin adept clanking around in heavy armour anyone? Such things won't happen if you play it by the book.

I think we also need to examine the restrictions in the warband equipment lists in the light of the cultures involved. To take a could he and would he approach to this. By way of illustration, and continuing with our Skaven assassin example:

  • Could he wear heavy armour? Yes, he probably could.
  • Would our stealthy, sneaky friend want to wear heavy armour? No, probably not.
  • Would he be inclined to don a suit of body-hugging, light-weight, Dwarf-tainted gromril armour even if he was lucky enough to be able to afford it and could find a suit, in a flattering shade that set off the highlights in his fur, in Skaven size 0?
Regarding the issue of whether ithilmar is light or heavy armour, this comes from an old FAQ that was posted on the GW website.

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PostSubject: Re: Tricky Item Question   Sun 21 Feb 2010 - 3:03

Citizen Sade wrote:
Allowing heavy armour for all and sundry doesn't seem right to me. A Skaven assassin adept clanking around in heavy armour anyone? Such things won't happen if you play it by the book.

I think we also need to examine the restrictions in the warband equipment lists in the light of the cultures involved. To take a could he and would he approach to this. By way of illustration, and continuing with our Skaven assassin example:

  • Could he wear heavy armour? Yes, he probably could.
  • Would our stealthy, sneaky friend want to wear heavy armour? No, probably not.
  • Would he be inclined to don a suit of body-hugging, light-weight, Dwarf-tainted gromril armour even if he was lucky enough to be able to afford it and could find a suit, in a flattering shade that set off the highlights in his fur, in Skaven size 0?
Regarding the issue of whether ithilmar is light or heavy armour, this comes from an old FAQ that was posted on the GW website.


Well, then it is a question of fluff. My fav axample is a Necromancer/Vampire/Possessed with a bow... Can he use it? Well, yes,... would he use it? Probably not... (vampires tend to want to get in close...).
And playing it by the book has long since been abandoned, I think, as most agree it is broken in some way or another, missing important stuff and such. besides, heavy armour isnt a viable equipment choice for most players anyway. It gives a 5+ save, but after a few games, or even the first, enemys' will have high enough strength or good enough weapons to negate that armour save. Use it with shield and you get -1 M: THAT I dont see a Skaven doing at all. And light armour is pretty much worthless after a few games as all tend to have S 4 or more.

I see no balancing issues and I certainly see no ruling against it. THe only thing I do acknowledge is the fact that it sometimes goes against the fluff, but that is up to each and everyone to decide on. Do my Assassin Adept wear heavy armour? Will my Vampire use a shortbow? Well, if youre beardy, yes, but there is no rules saying you cant be beardy.
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PostSubject: Re: Tricky Item Question   Sun 21 Feb 2010 - 3:40

No, this is primarily a question of rules rather than fluff. I'm arguing that the rules are that if heavy armour's not on your starting equipment list, you can never use it. Also, that as gromril and ithilmar are simply heavy armour made from different materials, you can't use them either. I am, however, suggesting that the reason why some warbands don't have access to heavy armour are cultural. Fluff-based, if you prefer.
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PostSubject: Re: Tricky Item Question   Sun 21 Feb 2010 - 4:02

Citizen Sade has given the official answer to the initial question.

BigEasy1022, as you can see many gaming groups develop their own sets of house rules. For starters it is obviously best to get a proper grasp of the official rules first and then see what you might like to change.


As with most house rules you'll find voices for and against. You'll find many people saying Skaven are an overpowered warband and you will find people proposing house rules that grant them additional access to the best piece of armour in the game (Gromril armour) as in here. Yeah, that's the messy state of Mordheim. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Tricky Item Question   Sun 21 Feb 2010 - 9:41

I agree that armor restrictions can be important to balance and may well have been based, in some cases, on "fluff" or "story considerations, too. I think the ork and goblin warband is the only one where we have made an exception (and goblins cannot wear heavy armor - only orcs).
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PostSubject: Re: Tricky Item Question   Sun 21 Feb 2010 - 23:13

Wow an explosion of response. Thanks for all the help. To be honest with you all I've taken a long hard look at the rules, and at the fluff, as well as what could happen down the road in a campaign. Picture this, an ork with T:4 with grom armor (4+), shield (3+), 'ard head talent (2+). That's a terminator walking around. Granted he is at movement 3, but if he does get to the fight (oh and he will ...he will... muahahaha... ahem) he's damn near indestructable.

I think the whole the "could he, would he" is a great idea, but with some limits. What I am going to propose to my gaming group is that as far as orks are conscerned, only the big boss can take heavy armor. The thought is that he being the meanest means he gets the only the best, and he won't let anyone have the same edge in battle as he.

I think that the one thing that seems to be sorely lacking, is interesting weapons and armor pieces for various warbands. Sure there's the ball and chain for the gobbo's, but nothin much more than that.

Maybe its that way for the sake of balance, but i think it would add a bit of character and crazyness (the fun kind) if my ork had a "mashem shield" (gives standard 6+ save but counts as a bludgeoning weapon attack that goes last in combat) or even weapons that can be searched for (ie: Flaming sword of whatever, yadda yadda yaddah). Something that allows advanced and wealthy warbands something to save up for ya know?

Any ideas, comments, concerns?
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PostSubject: Re: Tricky Item Question   Sun 21 Feb 2010 - 23:49

The axe, mate. Axe and Str 4 which is very easy to get, can deal with most of such situations. And the price of axes makes them so cheap you can buy them as extra weapons for all your heroes at some point. And ard head, does that grant an armour save??? Its just a helmet save, right, and protects against being stunned, not real armour save, right?
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PostSubject: Re: Tricky Item Question   Mon 22 Feb 2010 - 0:36

Arrg, my apologies. The correct skill is "Well 'Ard" which confers a +1 to the armor save. Yes I am aware that the S:4 & Axe combo would take that to a 4+, and since grom armor is so bloody expensive it will more than likely be 5+ save (with heavy armor). Still, a 4+/5+ save that is just simple back up for a T:4 (possibly T:5) model is pretty sick.

Not to mention in our play test campaign I saw a lot of people taking the cheap hammer rout, or loading up swords for parry. My list of course is loaded with axes (orks gotta have their choppas Wink ).

In the end we all know that, due to the strength modifiers and the huge cost for armor, its not that great idea to take it. But still in certain situations it can be the difference in your leader going down to a henchmen with cheap club/club setup. I'll take my 3+ or 2+ armor saves thanks... thats if you can even hit then wound me!
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PostSubject: Re: Tricky Item Question   Mon 22 Feb 2010 - 2:13

Opheliate wrote:
The axe, mate. Axe and Str 4 which is very easy to get, can deal with most of such situations. And the price of axes makes them so cheap you can buy them as extra weapons for all your heroes at some point. And ard head, does that grant an armour save??? Its just a helmet save, right, and protects against being stunned, not real armour save, right?

I really dig double-handed axes for this reason
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PostSubject: Re: Tricky Item Question   Mon 22 Feb 2010 - 7:25

sartori wrote:
I really dig double-handed axes for this reason

yes, if you agree on using the optional rules, which we always do, I see no problem Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Tricky Item Question   Mon 22 Feb 2010 - 13:02

I realise the point has already been addressed nine times over already. One choice word answers this 'tricky' question; Strictures

There are numerous examples of characters who cast spells and chant prayers who cannot wear armour, either due to its hindrance towards their spell-casting ability or otherwise there is a strict guideline from their faith (ie, Priest of Taal) which prevents them from doing so.

'Slapping on' a suit of armour, as it was described, is a different kettle of fish to firing an unfamiliar missile weapon. That being the case, witch hunter Matthias Thulmann famously fired a warpfire thrower on one occasion and I don't imagine he had any prior training. In Herr Thulmann's case, the title of 'Hero' or 'DP' doesn't even begin to cover his legacy.

As for the appropriateness of a model from any particular race using a type of armour, only two considerations apply; Cost and Availability

If you can find it and you can afford to buy it, then you can have a Hero wearing it. Whether a Skaven warband would bother shelling out on Gromril armour is another question entirely!! There are over a hundred more practical ways for the underfolk to flaunt their wealth, if they have it. Wink

I don't agree with any of the comments made concerning the house-ruling of certain weapons/armour types. Everything is (supposed to be) covered in the game rules and FAQ's. Many of such suggestions promote abolishing free will amongst your fellow gamers. Sorry guys, that's just not cool in a Mordheim campaign. Sad

Quote :
Picture this, an ork with T:4 with grom armor (4+), shield (3+), 'ard head talent (2+). That's a terminator walking around. Granted he is at movement 3, but if he does get to the fight (oh and he will ...he will... muahahaha... ahem) he's damn near indestructable.

Critical hits can always put pay to a nice Gromril breastplate and there are plenty of Strength 4 and 5 Heroes sporting Cutting Edge weapons...

...and Of course real men announce diving charges. Wink

Regards,

Stuart.

B-)
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PostSubject: Re: Tricky Item Question   Mon 22 Feb 2010 - 13:51

werekin wrote:
As for the appropriateness of a model from any particular race using a type of armour, only two considerations apply; Cost and Availability
You think? What about the rules then?

Of course, if you want to rule out gromril for those nouveau riche Skaven and Orc heroes, you can always justify this as follows:

  1. Cost: Reassuringly expensive
  2. Availability: Not made in Skaven and Orc sizes
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PostSubject: Re: Tricky Item Question   Mon 22 Feb 2010 - 19:59

werekin wrote:


...and Of course real men announce diving charges. ;)B-)

'nough said!
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PostSubject: Re: Tricky Item Question   Mon 22 Feb 2010 - 21:35

And using two handed axes are not house ruling, its in the optional rules section.
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PostSubject: Re: Tricky Item Question   Tue 23 Feb 2010 - 0:06

Opheliate wrote:
And using two handed axes are not house ruling, its in the optional rules section.

Erm... no? scratch

The optional rules only provide extended Critical Hits tables, but they don't allow combining the 2-handed effect with the normal rules of axes or swords when using 2-handed axes/swords. Am I missing something? study

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PostSubject: Re: Tricky Item Question   Tue 23 Feb 2010 - 5:25

"Still, a 4+/5+ save that is just simple back up for a T:4 (possibly T:5) model is pretty sick."

You are forgetting critical hits. Even a strength for can score a crit on a T4 model on a 6, and a crit has a 66.6% chance of negating all of that expensive armor. T5 is harder to crit, of course, but if the campaign is far enough along that your orc hero has Well 'ard and can afford all of that armor, then there are going to be enemy heroes out there with a +1 Str advance, or Mighty Blow, or two-handed weapons with the Strongman advance, etc. Your orc has a better chance or surviving than the average, but he is far from sick or indestructible.
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PostSubject: Re: Tricky Item Question   Tue 23 Feb 2010 - 7:01

Crits make Armor unless. I agree that you seem pretty indestructible when you have a good armor save. But Crits are not hard to roll in Mordheim.

And it's not like crits are hard to get it is a 1/6 or 16.67% chance per hit.

It's not like D&D where you have to roll a 20 on a d20 and then roll to back it up which varies from having to roll 20 twice
1/20*1/20 = 1/400 or 0.25%
to usually 20 then a 15+
1/20*5/20 = 1/80 or 1.25%

I have played in games where people of gotten on hot streaks and rolled a dozen crits in a match taking-out a dozen guys.

I have also played in games where no crits were rolled, or they ended-up being double knock downs so they didn't have a major effect on the game.

Early on Armor/shield isn't as useful as multiple attacks from a cost benefit stand point, as game goes on armor becomes more viable, but I don't know if it is ever as good as 2 weapons.
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PostSubject: Re: Tricky Item Question   Tue 23 Feb 2010 - 10:42

Quote :
What about the rules then?

There are always exceptions. Exceptions would (need to) be clearly stating why a warrior from any warband cannot wear the armour. ie, Chaos armour, Mechanical suit

Armoured warriors are far from indestructible. 2+ ward saves would be a different mater! There just don't seem to be a great deal of magical saves in Mordheim, apart from Step Aside. Wink

When playtesting the Mechanical suit (and Chaos armour) at my local GW store, the Chaos & Chaos Dwarf players were going crazy over it. The Chaos Dwarf player kept taking the expensive armour in starting game in the belief it made his warband leader into a terminator! The sorcerer went OOA in the first couple of turns every time he played with it!

Well armoured Heroes and large models always make very tempting targets. Smile
Quote :

Of course, if you want to rule out gromril for
those nouveau riche Skaven and Orc heroes, you can always justify this
as follows:

  1. Cost: Reassuringly expensive
  2. Availability: Not made in Skaven and Orc sizes
Have you seen all the cast-off's that greenskins, ogres etc are wearing (and wielding) these days!!? Take a look at the current Warhammer range of miniatures & sprues. Everyone is making use of second hand goods!! LoL.

As for the ratkin, they arguably have lighter fingers than gnoblars even! I read Vermintide by Bruno Lee (aka C.L. Werner) recently, and Clan Skyre was helping itself to gyrocopters, a Hellblaster volley cannon and Sigmar knows what else to build themselves a weapon of mass destruction!!

Any armour or weapons can be reshaped to suit a 2nd keeper, or so it seems.

Regards,

Stuart.
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