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 Dwarfs going for a dip! Now with some greenskins.

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Zujara
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PostSubject: Dwarfs going for a dip! Now with some greenskins.   Sun 7 Feb 2010 - 4:01

Hello again all! Life has been keeping me from gaming and with little time to paint, but luckily that is slowly changing for the better! Due to limited time I decided to paint my next Mordheim warband with dipping, here is what I have come up with so far!


Group shot


Noble and 2 Slayers


Engineer, Thunderer and Halfling Scout

I should also be getting a better camera sometime in the not so distant future, so one day I will get better quality shots!


Last edited by Zujara on Mon 10 May 2010 - 15:48; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarfs going for a dip! Now with some greenskins.   Sun 7 Feb 2010 - 5:18

THey look absolutely great!!!!

Did you BRUSHDIP or realy dip?

I find I have more control when using a brush for the dipping.
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarfs going for a dip! Now with some greenskins.   Sun 7 Feb 2010 - 5:42

If you hadn't mentioned dipping, I'd have NEVER suspected you had. I LOVE all the paraphenalia the Engineer is toting around. VERY WELL DONE!
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarfs going for a dip! Now with some greenskins.   Sun 7 Feb 2010 - 7:08

Lookin' good.
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarfs going for a dip! Now with some greenskins.   Sun 7 Feb 2010 - 11:42

Wow, amazing! I need to go get some of that dippin' stuffs....

*claps*
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Zujara
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarfs going for a dip! Now with some greenskins.   Sun 7 Feb 2010 - 11:52

Thanks all Very Happy

lord_siwoc: I really dipped these ones, then cleaned them off with a qtip and pieces of paper towel. Will likely try brushdip next though to see how it is.

DeafNala: Yeah the engineer is my favourite so far! Will need a few games to arm him with everything he has though, so right now he just has a pair of broken pistols he will repair later!

mweaver: thanks!

Figgy: It's pretty easy to get, I am just using wood stain. I will get a picture of the can I am using sometime soon if you like.
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarfs going for a dip! Now with some greenskins.   Mon 8 Feb 2010 - 7:00

Looks really good Smile So you've painted the basic colors then dipped them and a little bit of cleanup with q-tip and paper. Excellent result for such a fast process.

What's brushdip? Same thing but applying with a brush? (If I'm right about that, that's how I do it)
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarfs going for a dip! Now with some greenskins.   Mon 8 Feb 2010 - 10:17

Jorisch wrote:
Looks really good Smile So you've painted the basic colors then dipped them and a little bit of cleanup with q-tip and paper. Excellent result for such a fast process.

What's brushdip? Same thing but applying with a brush? (If I'm right about that, that's how I do it)


Yep, that is brush "dipping" Twisted Evil
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarfs going for a dip! Now with some greenskins.   Mon 8 Feb 2010 - 10:53

This post on dipping is giving me a dual feeling. The other week we had a game of Mordheim with the four of us and we had a big discussion on dipping. I strongly oppose dipping since I think it is not "painting" . Of course this is a strong statement since some painting is involved, but to me dipped miniatures have this dull bland "shine" over them. Although I have to say the dwarves in this post are quite good looking, I want to add "look good from a distance". I find it difficult to judge if these dwarves are really good. I think with the short timespan and using dipping the dwarves look good but it isn't really painting.
I find it difficult to explain what exactly gives me this feeling but it is there. Maybe it is that I reward a painted miniature more because of the time spent on it (even if the result is not that good). It might also be that it is to easy to dip? I don't know but the subject on dipping may require a new discussion all together.
The discussion on painting and dipping can also come the an interesting point where washes are involved. Using devlon mudd for instance isn't that the same as dipping? If used as on of the stages of giving a color to a miniature and more layers afterwards will follow, I'd say it is not dipping. But if used in the same way as for example woodstain dipping, it is the same thing.

OK at this point I'm getting confused myself and drifting away from the subject at hand: the dwarves over here. Final verdict: a good coherent warband! I'v got a slayer warband that also have some of the same miniatures in them. Especcially the engineer is a good mini for a Mordheim warband, since he is carrying a backpack full of stuff around. I actually have two in the warband, since the slayers are only paying attention to their axes and carry nothing more than the gold on their bodies.
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarfs going for a dip! Now with some greenskins.   Mon 8 Feb 2010 - 12:49

Jorisch: thanks thats exactly what I did, and yes that's what brushdip is!

Splendor: I can totally understand where you are coming from, I do think I could do a better job painting it by hand as well. For the shine, I used some dullcote on the minis to take that off and it worked beautifully. The main reason I decided to do dipping is my paint supply is dwindling down, and time and money aren't something I have a lot of currently (school, just married and now trying to get her immigrated into the country, legal fees are killing me.) Since I just did the stair case, I have wood stain left over.
Thanks for the final verdict though, and yeah the Engineer is perfect! I really like the metal dwarf miniatures they seem to have a lot of character, the plastics not so much but are still good minis.

edit: If it helps, I did paint the gems and bases by hand Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarfs going for a dip! Now with some greenskins.   Mon 8 Feb 2010 - 13:52

I must say I mostly paint very old school with layer after layer and after seeing the discussion here, I haven't used real dipping so far, just the gw washes to get some quick shading on a miniature.

But... I must say that I don't think it matters how a model is painted. If there is a new technique that makes it look better in 5 minutes than painting it the old school way for 5 hours then why do it the old way. Everything evolves and so should miniature painting.

And I don't think there is anyone arguing that for the best result, a lot of skill with the brush, blending and other techniques etc are needed to make an excellent painted miniature.

@Zujara I hope it works out fine with the immigration and that you've payed your last legal fee.
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarfs going for a dip! Now with some greenskins.   Tue 9 Feb 2010 - 17:31

Some more dwarfs set to take a dip:


And here is what I am using:


It has a few caps of odourless mineral spirits in it to thin it out for better flow.
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarfs going for a dip! Now with some greenskins.   Wed 10 Feb 2010 - 4:00

Poor fellows being dipped! Can't bear.....

But still them dwarfs have to be out there kickin´ass in an´ around Mordheim. Are they holding up nicely in your games?

BTW nice bases, how do you create those?
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarfs going for a dip! Now with some greenskins.   Wed 10 Feb 2010 - 10:48

Every time I talk about putting things in the dip I feel like Judge Doom in Who Framed Roger Rabbit.

The dwarfs are holding up good, only had a few games so far. I took a gamble getting the gromril armour and a gromril mace on my noble and it paid off. We're playing with reduced critical hits and shields giving +1 save in close combat so my noble holds up very well! Just need to roll up +1 toughness and get the Resilience skill.

The bases are made of green stuff, I made a mould of it by doing one base, then when it dried glued some green stuff on an old pencil and rolled it over it. After that, I just put a bit of green stuff on the base and roll it over it and instant cobblestone! Here's my tool:
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarfs going for a dip! Now with some greenskins.   Wed 10 Feb 2010 - 17:41

I've tried dipping some beastmen (well...just one so far to be exact ) but didn't get the quality that you got. So, a couple of questions for you - 1) I used black primer. Do you think that the dip method works better w/ white primer? 2) Have you always used mineral spirits to thin your stain/varnish (which is exactly what I use) or is that something you figured out via trial and error?

Oh, that cobble stone tool you made - BRILLIANT!!! I am gonna have to steal that one!
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarfs going for a dip! Now with some greenskins.   Wed 10 Feb 2010 - 18:08

so that second batch... is that what your first batch looked like before you dipped em? cause if so thats pretty incredible and being the lazy (non)painter I am I will definitely have to try it
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarfs going for a dip! Now with some greenskins.   Wed 10 Feb 2010 - 21:43

Your Mum's Warband: 1) I would say white primer would work better yes, at least with the shade I am using. Colour choice seems to be really important, and took some playing around on test minis to figure what I wanted. The Bestial Brown on the beards is as dark a colour as I would go. I also forgot to mention that after the first dip dries, I brush on a light amount if parts seem too light, like the flesh.
2) I figured it out by trial and error when my test halfling turned out rather poorly with spots pooled. I googled around to see how much to thin it, and general suggestion was to a cream consistency, if it's a milky consistency it's thinned too much.
Glad you like the tool, it has saved me a lot of time!

Dmig: Yep that's what the first batch looked like before I dipped them. The only thing I do after is add some chainmail to the edge of the weapons to make them look sharp.

The finished minis should be up tomorrow, only downside is it takes a while to dry fully!
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarfs going for a dip! Now with some greenskins.   Thu 11 Feb 2010 - 9:18

Hmmm, I may need to try this for my beastmen... I may have some old dark varnish around here. I wouldn't do this for somethingthat I wanted bright colors with, like my Marienburgers. Beastmen though... hmmm.

So it looks like you do very light colors of everything you want except for the things you want pale, that stays white.

Wouldn't you get the same effect with a good ink wash? Or is it because the varnish is sticky? I do have some trouble getting the definition I want. I think that's why these dwarves look so good, they are so radically defined.
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarfs going for a dip! Now with some greenskins.   Thu 11 Feb 2010 - 10:34

First, I must say that Zujara, my friend, are a MASTER! Excellent work on the dwarves. Can't wait to see the post-dip pictures on the 2nd batch! Really NICE. cheers

@Splendor: I understand what you mean. As we discussed here and here, dipping IN MY OPINION is the great 'equalizer'. On the first post, I painted the Terminators imitating a 'newbie' painting style... with errors and 'sloppy' painting. Those Termies ended up looking very well. The pictures are EXTREME close-ups... on the table they blend in with the models perfectly! For people like you, Tom, Cianty, DefNala and myself (although I would not dare to even dip my brush to their wash-water, much less put myself at their skill level! Shocked) that truly enjoy painting, dipping may feel like 'cheating'.

People who have limited time, have hundreds of models to paint (horde armies) or that are just starting to paint (a.k.a. have yet to acquire the skills through practice), dipping offers them a 'quick' way to put good looking models on the table. IMHO, dipping can NOT replace 'traditional painting' styles, as miniature painting is about tricking the human eye to re-scale small objects to a larger size through color. You can NOT create multiple layers and color blends with dipping. Think of it as a superior model (winner of a Golden Demon or a Golden Tom for that matter!) being a perfect 10 and a three base color model being a 1. The 2nd batch of dwarves are, IMHO a 2 out of 10... once you dip them, they become a 7... maybe a 7.5. They are great... but no eyes, no ultra fine details, no true gem reflection, the 'dirty' look, etc. They could not win a Golden Tom... but they would certainly make at least the quarter finals! Considering that jumping from a 2 to a 7.5 took 30 seconds flat, this is indeed an attractive solution. That is takes the 'fun' out of trying to reach a 10 based on 100% your own effort... sure! But it is a great tool to learn and (more important) allows EVERYONE to have painted models on the table. NO EXCUSES PEOPLE! Razz

You are right that 'traditional painting' is harder and requires practice to gain skills. You are 100% correct implying that after you spend long time painting a model, you will feel more accomplished and proud of your job that just dipping. I would not agree with the statement
Splendor wrote:
I strongly oppose dipping since I think it is not "painting".
I understand this is your opinion, I please do not think I'm under-minding it. Farthe contrary, I respect and embrace it. I just want to discuss (as in the exchange of ideas and debate, not fighting! Very Happy ) that dipping do require some skills and they form a good teaching base for 'traditional painting'. You see, the dip medium has to be prepared, the base colors used do change tones and the painter must understand about 'pooling of the dipping medium' as well as how to use a brush to remove excess. Dipping also encourages basing (since the model is done quickly, people tend to at least put minimal flock) and the final products showcases how lighting affects the final product.

Those skill do translate directly to traditional painting techniques, such as mixing your own colors, dry-brushing, washing, wet-blending, highlighting (hard and soft) understanding color palettes, effects of layering, among others. For a newbie, this are terrifying concepts that frustrate their growth as a hobbyist. How many players you know they do NOT paint their models because they 'tried once, but suck at painting'? Dipping would help them to learn about brush control AND reward them with a nice product. It is not at a Golden Tom level... but how cool would it be for your first attempt to be recognized as a 'great looking model'? You think that the newbie would stop, or continue to paint and grow as a hobbyist? And lets not mention rewarding YOU (the opponents) by being able to play against nicely painted models on the table.

People who dip models and are good painters (like Zujara) are not just slapping basic colors, but exercising great brush control (look at his models... he CAN paint within the lines and there are no 'accidents' of brushing the wrong color at the wrong places), which pays off when paining with traditional techniques. Other dippers (like me) do NOT use just 3 or 4 colors... I found myself doing minor highlighting in certain sections, so the dip 'normalize' any errors or hard strokes for me, rather than having to wet-blend. I think is is a natural technique that evolves when you know about the 'existence' of those advance techniques and you are good at dipping your models (I'm just learning how to dip!) Newbies who start dipping could start 'practicing' an advance technique, knowing that dipping would fix (by masking) any imperfections. They will start raising their own bar and goals... maybe to the point that in a full army they could decide to dip 99% of the models, and paint a particular model in a 'traditional' way. After so much practice, they will be better! They would not be frustrated with the hardships of advanced painting, learn to enjoy the part of the hobby and, more importantly, be proud of all their work!

It is all about enjoying the hobby and having a great time with your friends. While dipped models will never win a Golden Tom, they should win the respect and admiration of all hobbyist, especially when non-painters use the technique as a platform to start 'dipping their feet' (pardon the pun) at the vast part of our hobby.
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarfs going for a dip! Now with some greenskins.   Thu 11 Feb 2010 - 14:35

Nastyogre: I am not sure, my experience with inks is pretty minimal. Hopefully someone else can answer this for you.

Mordheimer: Thanks! And you're right, I am not trying to win a Golden Tom with these I just like having a painted warband and dipping makes it easy to fit the time in! I should take some shots of these beside my undead warband I painted by hand and see how they look.

Anyways first things, just for Splendor, here is the Dwarf Noble I painted by hand last year:

He will still have a place in my warband should one of the clansmen get talent!

Here's the result of the 2nd batch, the one on the far left had some pooling I missed but I don't think it really ruins it. The one beside it had a touch too, but mostly just makes him look dirty.


Still have some Thunderers left to do, a Thunderer hero and a few Clansmen. Oh and some hired swords!
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarfs going for a dip! Now with some greenskins.   Thu 11 Feb 2010 - 19:57

Amazing what that dip can do.

What if your paint job had a bit more detail? Would that make the dipping look drastically different?

I guess what I am saying is: Are you supposed to only paint with basic colors if you are to use the dip?
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarfs going for a dip! Now with some greenskins.   Thu 11 Feb 2010 - 22:15

I imagine if you did some highlights before dipping they should show up! I am just keeping it simpler for now.
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarfs going for a dip! Now with some greenskins.   Fri 12 Feb 2010 - 2:48

The Dwarf Lord mini is one of those pieces I LOVE; the brooding look is just SO in character for a Dwarf...AND you did a GREAT job bringing the Little Grump to life.
The Dipped Boys look TERRIFIC! It took a fair amount of staring to spot the little imperfections...something that will go unnotice when viewed from a distance. A little touch up when you have the time would set them up nicely & probably wouldn't take ALL that long to do.
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarfs going for a dip! Now with some greenskins.   Fri 12 Feb 2010 - 4:14

HAHAHAH!!!! I saw the picture of the Dwarf Noble and thought "FU&#@! This guy's dipping IS really good! How did he EVER made those shades?" HAHAHA!!! Then I saw how... teach me to read 1st!

On your 2nd batch... WOW! I could NOT resists.... here is something for you; a side by side you you can see how AWESOME your model looks! Cool Thanks for sharing!


@Figgy: YES, if you do some other techniques (like highlighting) they do show up! Dipping will 'tone down' some highlights, so errors are mitigated... great way to learn new techniques. I wrote an article at the Death Squads Forum with some Termagaunts. The picture here is of models pre-dipped (look at the highlights on carapace), dipped (not matte coated, so it looks shiny) and finished (just one coat of matte finish and basin). There was a nice discussion about properties of dipping.

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PostSubject: Re: Dwarfs going for a dip! Now with some greenskins.   Fri 12 Feb 2010 - 7:02

As ive got older my miniture painting has become less precise to the point where even with theses x2 reading glasses i struggle to make a decent job in anything like a reasonable time. Dipping could help me a lot because i want my figures to look half decent at least but it is a technique i know nothing about. The before and after pictures as well as the original post prompt me to ask -
What is dipping and how do i do it ????? (i live in UK)
(please instruct me as if i were a complete ignoramus)

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