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CygnusMaximus
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PostSubject: Simple Beastmen Update   Fri 5 Feb 2010 - 17:06

The new Warhammer Armies: Beastmen and its accompanying releases have made drastic changes to the beasts of chaos army list with all sorts of new monsters, rules, and models.

Most of these, though, are really too big to be fair in Mordheim and would only apply to large-scale engagements.

One change struck me as being especially appropriate for the Mordheim Beastmen warband: giving ungors the option to take short bows.

I think this simple change will go a long way toward making beastmen warbands that actually include the poor blighters (that get eaten whenever one of them shows any talent) simply to provide the warband with some much-needed missile support.

Besides, GW now has official models of them - and I don't think they look bad at all (even if they're a bit on the pricey side).

What do you think?
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PostSubject: Re: Simple Beastmen Update   Fri 5 Feb 2010 - 17:30

We've already done this. It isn't like the addition of Shortbow wielding Ungors unbalances the list, and giving them no missle weapons always seemed a bit silly.
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cianty
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PostSubject: Re: Simple Beastmen Update   Sat 6 Feb 2010 - 1:26

- Ungors with bows hurt my eyes. Seriously. They make 'em bleed. Crying or Very sad
Sorry, but I'm an old school Beastman fan.
- Many people are already claiming that Beastmen are amongst the top tier warbands, so there is no need to give them additional options.
- There is even less need to update that one warband because of evolutions in Warhammer. Why not the other warbands such as Da Mob and Dwarfs? Unless you try to adjust all warbands to current edition of Warhammer I see no sense in doing so with a few selected ones, unless those changes are motivated by balancing issues, which seems to not be the case here as stated above.

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PostSubject: Re: Simple Beastmen Update   Sat 6 Feb 2010 - 13:02

@cianty--an interesting premise but the current version of Beasts in Mordheim is in direct response to the changes made to Beastmen between 5th and 6th edition Warhammer when Bestigors, Ungors and Centigors were added to the army lists... So...

As for Old School back in 3rd ed Warhammer (at the beginning of actual army lists) Beastmen could be armed with javelins and Chaos Centaurs could use bows... From my rocking chair its all good.

We started talking about Ungors and bows on Thursday, might happen. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Simple Beastmen Update   Sat 6 Feb 2010 - 14:32

cianty wrote:
- Ungors with bows hurt my eyes. Seriously. They make 'em bleed. Crying or Very sad
Sorry, but I'm an old school Beastman fan.

Seconded. I really like that Mordheim matchs the 5th edition of Warhammer Fantasy. In fact, I like it so much that when I build a new warband, I try to only use models that were available at the time of the particular setting I am playing in. I might just be retarded that way. While I have only played against Beastmen once, the general feeling I get from them is that they are one of the stronger warbands.
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PostSubject: Re: Simple Beastmen Update   Sat 6 Feb 2010 - 14:57

Joker2and53 wrote:

I really like that Mordheim matchs the 5th edition of Warhammer Fantasy. In fact, I like it so much that when I build a new warband, I try to only use models that were available at the time of the particular setting I am playing in. I might just be retarded that way. While I have only played against Beastmen once, the general feeling I get from them is that they are one of the stronger warbands.

So did you play against the original Mordheim Beastmen warband from TC#7? It used the 5th edition Warhammer Beastmen as inspiration. The current warband TC#29 is based on 6th edition Warhammer rules and models. (I think I've mentioned this, perhaps I should be more specific.)
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PostSubject: Re: Simple Beastmen Update   Sat 6 Feb 2010 - 18:04

cianty wrote:
- Ungors with bows hurt my eyes. Seriously. They make 'em bleed. Crying or Very sad
Sorry, but I'm an old school Beastman fan.
- Many people are already claiming that Beastmen are amongst the top tier warbands, so there is no need to give them additional options.
- There is even less need to update that one warband because of evolutions in Warhammer. Why not the other warbands such as Da Mob and Dwarfs? Unless you try to adjust all warbands to current edition of Warhammer I see no sense in doing so with a few selected ones, unless those changes are motivated by balancing issues, which seems to not be the case here as stated above.

I do make an effort to keep all of the warbands up with the "flavor of the day" and the most recent models - mostly because I like to add to my collection!

In the case of Beastmen, though, it just struck me as something that might actually cause people to consider taking Ungors. In my experience, beastmen warbands usually contain the maximum number of heroes, include as many Gors as possible (5) and a minotaur, then max-out on warhounds (since ungor, even with some experience, pale in comparison to Chaos Hounds).

Each to his own, of course.
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PostSubject: Re: Simple Beastmen Update   Sat 6 Feb 2010 - 19:23

Von Kurst wrote:
@cianty--an interesting premise but the current version of Beasts in Mordheim is in direct response to the changes made to Beastmen between 5th and 6th edition Warhammer when Bestigors, Ungors and Centigors were added to the army lists... So...

And I hated this idea right from the very beginning. I mean COME ON! Who seriously believes that the Gors in the Possessed warband have 2 wounds because of the wonders of wyrdstones and the "normal" Gors have 1 wound because they are ... "normal"? That's *?#%! It immediately added unneccessary inconsistency to the game.

This aside I totally agree with you, Cygnus. Ungors are not a viable choice in Beastmen warbands. I too don't use them (the few games I ran with the new list) and I would never pick them instead of Gors. But I am too much of a fluff player to ever give bows to Ungors in this life.

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PostSubject: Re: Simple Beastmen Update   Sat 6 Feb 2010 - 20:33

I'm not sure if its ironic or not but in the north suburbs of Indianapolis there is a dedicated group of longbeard 3rd edition Warhammer players who refused to play 4th edition Warhammer because the rules and official fluff changed their armies to the current Bretonnia doesn't do this, Chaos don't do that, etc. To them you are the fluff heretic and a young 'un upstart to boot... Everything that's new is old again...

Hold to your beliefs youngling in 20 years or so they will be vindicated! Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Simple Beastmen Update   Sat 6 Feb 2010 - 21:01

Actually, I've been playing Warhammer since the twilight of Fourth Edition, and I still fondly remember the High Elves vs. Goblins starter box that I was too poor to afford and missed getting. A lot has changed since then but I have always been a fan of Tzeentch (as you can see in my signature) and have embraced the changes - with the exception of some pricing decisions...

Still, I understand people sticking with a particular era in GW's history - I get all nostalgic when I break out my old rulebooks and White Dwarfs and think of the days when 50% of many armies was spent on characters with 25% taken from a completely different list!

Those were the days...
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PostSubject: Re: Simple Beastmen Update   Sat 6 Feb 2010 - 22:37

Am pretty sure I remember Beastmen able to take bows in Warhammer Armies (could be wrong, but heroes could for sure), and this was before there was anything other than plain old Beastmen.

At any rate, Ungors would take bows for precisely the same reason goblins do. They aren't as big as the others and will never match up in hth. That's why humans developed bows in the first place. Ever tried to take out an elephant with a club?

It's not like giving Ungors bows is going to unbalance the list, or turn Beastmen in to a shooty force of snipers. But it at least makes a case for their inclusion in some warband.
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PostSubject: Re: Simple Beastmen Update   Sun 7 Feb 2010 - 4:42

Von Kurst wrote:
I'm not sure if its ironic or not but in the north suburbs of Indianapolis there is a dedicated group of longbeard 3rd edition Warhammer players who refused to play 4th edition Warhammer because the rules and official fluff changed their armies to the current Bretonnia doesn't do this, Chaos don't do that, etc. To them you are the fluff heretic and a young 'un upstart to boot... Everything that's new is old again...

Hold to your beliefs youngling in 20 years or so they will be vindicated! Smile

I guess I can live with that. Smile

Play and let play.

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PostSubject: Re: Simple Beastmen Update   Sun 7 Feb 2010 - 5:15

Move with the times my friends. The Master of Fates bids it so...

Quote :
A lot has changed since then but I have always been a fan of Tzeentch
(as you can see in my signature) and have embraced the changes - with
the exception of some pricing decisions...

My faithful copy of Warhammer Armies sits on the shelf as a timely reminder of when the hobby was damn close to being customisable without limits. Of course our adventures in Mordheim and the other settings are benefiting from the rules & limitations imposed with any given campaign.

Considering how much the game has evolved, it isn't unlikely that the characters & races of the Warhammer World could evolve themselves. The likes of Chaos marauders and ungors running around with missile weapons is the epitomy of old school, as has already been stated in the thread above.

As far as evolution goes, I'd offer that any good campaign needs guidelines as an accompaniment to the hard & fast rules which always apply.

Regards,

Stuart.

p.s. As far as same-named warrior types go, no two (ie, Beastmen & Warrior-priests of Sigmar) should remain inconsistent. If the RR committee did their jobs properly, then this wouldn't even be an issue. Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Simple Beastmen Update   Sun 7 Feb 2010 - 5:15

anything that makes more warbands a mix of shooting and hth sits well with the asp http://boringmordheimforum.forumieren.com/rules-and-gameplay-f1/rules-modders-how-about-a-basic-free-missile-weapon-t3419.htm.

and yearh, possessed beasties shouldnt have 2 wounds. they're henchmen after all
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cianty
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PostSubject: Re: Simple Beastmen Update   Sun 7 Feb 2010 - 5:18

werekin wrote:
Move with the times my friends. The Master of Fates bids it so...

I'm not gonna argue with you, fanboy. Razz

werekin wrote:
If the RR committee did their jobs properly, then this wouldn't even be an issue. Wink

*smack*

Go to AH. The RR is more than willing.

Asp wrote:
and yearh, possessed beasties shouldnt have 2 wounds. they're henchmen after all

Is that what you told opposing Warhammer players when they placed their regiments of 2-wound gors and bestigors? "Ey, those are standard units. They can't have two wounds. I'm not playing you." Suspect

-------------

I never meant to say that I am against updating the lists from an objective point of view. For me personally, I don't see any sense in messing with selected aspects while leaving others untouched. My aversion for bow-wielding Ungors doesn't help that. In the scope of a proper re-write I know there's no way of getting around the updates of current Warhammer. For Coreheim and similar attempts it sure makes sense to include all these changes. But I don't want to bastardize the game further. Just stating my opinion. Again, it's not what's best for the game objectively but what suits me best.

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PostSubject: Re: Simple Beastmen Update   Sun 7 Feb 2010 - 7:22

Cianty, you were INFP, right? Smile
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cianty
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PostSubject: Re: Simple Beastmen Update   Sun 7 Feb 2010 - 8:34

I was just answering the initial question and never meant to discuss that further. Do as you all please.

I don't think MBTI categories are of any help here. I didn't take the test, by the way.

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