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 Rules Modders: How about a basic, free missile weapon?

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Asp
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PostSubject: Rules Modders: How about a basic, free missile weapon?   Mon 1 Feb 2010 - 17:34

Hi Wyldhunt and others who mod the rules.

I was thinking:

In Mordheim shooting is very binary: Eigther your band is good at
shooting in which case it is really good (variety of missile weapons,
shooting skills) or it is really bad (bows only, no shooting skills).

This makes shooting pretty much a no brainer:

If you are a good shooty band you _always_ want a shootout and if you are not you _never_ want one.

I would like for at sort of compromise that would make such tactical situations less of a no brainer.

To this end, I would propose some kind of basic, free missile weapon.

Let's presume that Slings as they exist count as as Short Bows. (many groups use this fix)

tentatively say call this new proposed free missile weapon a Sling:

Sling
common
free
Range: 14" (or 16")
S: 2

So it would suck pretty badly. But it would be free and thus introduce an incentive not to charge forth 100% of the time.

Another advantage of calling this weapon a sling would be that a sling, like a dagger, does not have to be modelled as it could simply be any leather strap featured on the model and ammo is simply stones from the rubble
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Myntokk
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PostSubject: Re: Rules Modders: How about a basic, free missile weapon?   Mon 1 Feb 2010 - 17:45

It's not a bad idea, I'd keep it at 14" or possibly even 12" though, and definitely not go above S2. Since ranged attacks carry the advantage of not putting yourself at risk of return blows (at least until the other guy's shooting phase), I think that any free ranged attack needs to be pretty poor.


Last edited by Myntokk on Tue 2 Feb 2010 - 15:15; edited 1 time in total
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Opheliate
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PostSubject: Re: Rules Modders: How about a basic, free missile weapon?   Mon 1 Feb 2010 - 22:28

Cant they just throw rocks or rubble at each other?

Range 6", S: As user -1, Special Rules: +1 Armour Save on target

Maybe?
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PostSubject: Re: Rules Modders: How about a basic, free missile weapon?   Tue 2 Feb 2010 - 1:19

Opheliate wrote:
Cant they just throw rocks or rubble at each other?

Range 6", S: As user -1, Special Rules: +1 Armour Save on target

Maybe?

wow, that sounds great to me! Maybe range could be 2xStrengh?
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wyldhunt
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PostSubject: Re: Rules Modders: How about a basic, free missile weapon?   Tue 2 Feb 2010 - 5:56

We have implemented "Rocks & Rubble" as a free missile weapon in the same way as Fists. Since we've put all thrown weapons at 2x Strength range (3x for javelins) as others have done, that goes for Rocks and Rubble as well.

Rocks and Rubble (cost: 0, common, range: 2x the thrower's Strength”, Strength: as wielder -1 up to half range; as wielder -2 more than half range). Well, this isn't really “equipment.” However, any model with hands/tentacles (even those which don't have any missile weapons on their equipment list) may pick up rocks and rubble (which are strewn all around Mordheim) and throw them.

  • The attack suffers a -1 to hit.
  • A wielder who moves and throws these weapons does not suffer a hit penalty for moving.
  • The target gains a +1 Armor Save.
  • These weapons may not be used in HtH (use Fist or Natural Attacks instead).
Asp, I haven't seen quite the binary missile distribution you have. I've still found value in gettnig all of my warbands at least basic missile weapons, but only for those situations where it's been hard to engage in melee - in other words, I definitely agree that warbands who are poor at missile fire always want to engage in melee. I don't feel that adding an always-available missile weapon will change that, however, it does give warbands like Beastmen an option for those cases where they just cannot get into melee very well.

Fluffwise, even if I'm a slavering beast, Ogre, Troll, or what have you (with hands/tentacles), if I see a despicable pointy-ear shootin' at me, and I can't get to him, why wouldn't I pick up that slab of stone over there and chuck it at him?
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Louis
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PostSubject: Re: Rules Modders: How about a basic, free missile weapon?   Tue 2 Feb 2010 - 6:32

Wyrldhunt, I like the idea! but:
wyldhunt wrote:
as wielder -2 more than half range
why is this? A rock does not decelerate when thrown, unless upwards, where it will accelerate again when decending.

I will definitely introduce rocks and rubble to my gaming group! It makes so much sense.
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Opheliate
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PostSubject: Re: Rules Modders: How about a basic, free missile weapon?   Tue 2 Feb 2010 - 8:31

I think someone somewhere also mentioned rocks and that you must first roll to find one. It was like, to throw a rock, first roll a d6, and on a 4+ you find a rock or other rubble to throw. I think that makes it more of a hassle, but I know I spotted something like that somewhere and maybe someone else think it would work well.
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Popmouth
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PostSubject: Re: Rules Modders: How about a basic, free missile weapon?   Tue 2 Feb 2010 - 9:17

Fun however it may be, I find it slightly silly, gangs running round throwing rocks and rubble at each other...
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PostSubject: Re: Rules Modders: How about a basic, free missile weapon?   Tue 2 Feb 2010 - 9:25

yes maybe a bit silly BUT realise that rocks and rubble are pretty weak when handled by gobos skaven humans and stuff like that so it is only a balancer not a way to fight. I mean a high strength war band could be very good but the max range for most is probably 14/16" and those people with the high strength would still want to go into combat because they would be powerhouses... And stoning is a punishment (life of brian hehehe) and can easily kill
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PostSubject: Re: Rules Modders: How about a basic, free missile weapon?   Tue 2 Feb 2010 - 18:00

I like the rocks idea.
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wyldhunt
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PostSubject: Re: Rules Modders: How about a basic, free missile weapon?   Tue 2 Feb 2010 - 18:13

Louis wrote:
why is this? A rock does not decelerate when thrown, unless upwards, where it will accelerate again when decending.

Two reasons:

1. Air friction does indeed work against the velocity of an object moving through air. It's a very, very small amount for something like a handheld rock, but since the rock is not as aerodynamic nor balanced like a throwing knive, this gives just enough leeway to:

2. Give a rules/story difference to rocks/rubble from objects designed to be thrown.

However, since there's already both a -1 hit, +1 AS, and -1 S thrown in, the -2 S at long range is probably overkill and an over-complication. I don't want rocks to be exactly like a ranged fist, but the -1 hit will take care of that. I'll remove the -2 S at long range from our rules in the next version.

Opheliate, I'm not surprised that someone else already thought of the idea - in fact, I wouldn't be surprised if I read and copied at least the concept from that source. Part of what we're trying to do with our rules is compile what's already gone before and mesh it into a consistent rules set, rather than attempting to recreate everything differently. I agree that at least in Mordheim itself there's no need to roll - the ruins are everywhere.
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Popmouth
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PostSubject: Re: Rules Modders: How about a basic, free missile weapon?   Wed 3 Feb 2010 - 3:39

I'm just seeing the whole thing evolving into a ludicrous snow ball fight. I don't know, it just feels so, school yardish. I'd rather see that you can use some stationary missile weapons on the board. Maybe you could drop bricks lying in a pile on a second floor, or fire of a stationary cannon (counts as blunderbuss).
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PostSubject: Re: Rules Modders: How about a basic, free missile weapon?   Wed 3 Feb 2010 - 5:13

Popmouth wrote:
I'm just seeing the whole thing evolving into a ludicrous snow ball fight. I don't know, it just feels so, school yardish.
Never been caught up in a riot then?

Personally, I can't imagine your fears will be realised. Shooty warbands have better options than rocks and, generally speaking, melee warbands will surely want to close to contact.
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wyldhunt
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PostSubject: Re: Rules Modders: How about a basic, free missile weapon?   Wed 3 Feb 2010 - 5:54

Popmouth - we're playtesting this option now, but I agree with others' assessment. For example, during a Street Brawl, my Orcs (using BS2, but still equipped with bows) shot once at Beastmen, who didn't stop and get rocks to throw, but just swarmed right over my Orcs.

Story of this battle here: http://boringmordheimforum.forumieren.com/battle-reports-and-fluff-f11/the-wyldhunt-winter-2010-campaign-t3294.htm - my post at Sun 17 Jan 2010 - 15:22

If my Orcs had been holed up in Bell, Book and Candle's Leaning Tower of Vercuso, I could see some of the Beastmen swarming up the steps, and a few Gors getting into a nearby building and throwing rocks, but that's about it. Well, maybe the Centigor would throw rocks as well - it doesn't look like he could get up the steps of that tower!

A game of purely stone-throwing would be long and tedious. I don't see warbands doing this just because they can, but only doing it when they don't have other valid tactical options.
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PostSubject: Re: Rules Modders: How about a basic, free missile weapon?   Wed 3 Feb 2010 - 6:31

You know, I will probably be standing corrected soon enough ^_^. I don't think I will introduce this to my group however, but it's an idea!
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Asp
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PostSubject: Re: Rules Modders: How about a basic, free missile weapon?   Wed 3 Feb 2010 - 7:55

so we've abandoned the sling idea entirely? Sad
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PostSubject: Re: Rules Modders: How about a basic, free missile weapon?   Wed 3 Feb 2010 - 12:56

I will use rocks a ruble as well, thanks! wyldhunt!
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wyldhunt
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PostSubject: Re: Rules Modders: How about a basic, free missile weapon?   Wed 3 Feb 2010 - 18:52

Asp wrote:
so we've abandoned the sling idea entirely? Sad
I'm sorry, Asp - if only using the original list of missile weapons, it makes the best sense in those constraints, but there are two rather large points against it:

1. GW fluff. Even though GW lifted Hobbits pretty much straight from the Shire and plopped them in the Moot, they took pains to give them bows instead of slings. There seem to be only certain groups in the Warhammer world which use slings, so I would prefer to leave slings to them.

2. Real history. Silngs were not used by everyone - they were indeed only used by certain cultures. In Mediterranean history, you can find a distinct shift from slings to bows even in those cultures - not that slings were less effective at the range of those ancient Mediterranean bows, but as the cultures shifted from herders to farmers, the population lost the sling skills. It was harder to train in slings than bows (just as bows are harder to learn than crossbows/guns - I wonder which of the latter was easier to learn with matchlocks?). For that reason, I can't see everyone knowing how to use slings, even in non-reality Warhammer.
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Asp
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PostSubject: Re: Rules Modders: How about a basic, free missile weapon?   Thu 4 Feb 2010 - 3:28

there are slingers in don quixhote
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PostSubject: Re: Rules Modders: How about a basic, free missile weapon?   Thu 4 Feb 2010 - 13:23

So its not totally related but in regards to warbands that don't shoot getting in on the action a little Ive been playing with the rule that at creation you can change 1 skill list on one of your heroes (Ive been playing my possessed and I gave a mutant shooting instead of combat. This has given me two sniper units (I always get the Tilean Marksman when I'm possessed) It hasn't had a drastic effect on the game, but I think its fun

Just a thought
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Asp
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PostSubject: Re: Rules Modders: How about a basic, free missile weapon?   Thu 4 Feb 2010 - 16:54

so dmig can henchmen also get shooting later on with your rule?
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PostSubject: Re: Rules Modders: How about a basic, free missile weapon?   Thu 4 Feb 2010 - 17:03

Hasn't come up yet.. Id say no.
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PostSubject: Re: Rules Modders: How about a basic, free missile weapon?   Sun 7 Feb 2010 - 7:23

thats cool

id actually like some way for 0-2 dregs or 0-2 mutants being able to take shooting
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PostSubject: Re: Rules Modders: How about a basic, free missile weapon?   Sun 7 Feb 2010 - 15:26

It makes sense that there would be slings in Don Quixote. Even today sheep are big business in Spain.
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PostSubject: Re: Rules Modders: How about a basic, free missile weapon?   Mon 8 Feb 2010 - 0:20

i play skaven and gave all of them a sling its really hard for your opponent to see himself in a rain of stones (2shoot 1/2 distance), when you use ure climpings skills you are in a short time on top of buildings... my friends didnt really liked it Very Happy

but the stone throwing is a cool way for beastman and the fluff is perfect
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