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 Animals can pick up Wyrdstone?

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Snappy_Dresser
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PostSubject: Animals can pick up Wyrdstone?   Sun 10 Jan 2010 - 15:55

I was playing the Wyrdstone Hunt scenario last night and my opponent (I love the guy, but he's rather beardy sometimes) Trots his Warhound up, grabs the Wyrdstone, and dashes in to cover. Now I'm pretty sure this is not allowed, but couldn't find the rule (and since I was playing, couldn't really pull the "because that's the way it is card"). Somebody please (pretty please) help me out and return sanity to my life.
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PostSubject: Re: Animals can pick up Wyrdstone?   Sun 10 Jan 2010 - 16:11

In scenarion 3 in the core book, wyrdstone hunt, it says, " Warriors can pick up the counters simply by moving into contact with them (wyrd). A warrior can carry any amount.." I doesn't say anything, but warriors, I would say no a dog cant, but then is a dog a warrior? Id say yes, so then I would have to say according to the rules yes it can "fetch" the stone.
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PostSubject: Re: Animals can pick up Wyrdstone?   Sun 10 Jan 2010 - 16:15

But then in Scenario 7: Hidden treasure, it saya All warriors ( not animals) in the warband can inspect... yadda yadda yadda, any man-size model may pick it up (the chest)..ect.

So idk hahah
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PostSubject: Re: Animals can pick up Wyrdstone?   Sun 10 Jan 2010 - 16:31

if the dog isn't trained to be an inside out tentacle houndfiend with a chicken head no, no it can not.
and calling that beardy is just silly. beardy is when you use unnecessarily large amounts of steamtanks and organguns to kill zombies, getting non sentient beings to grab and/or hold objectives is not.

The warhound is a warrior as much as a sniffer dog is a criminal investigator.

Even if you made up a rule where the dog can fetch stuff it still needs to be able to fight with a tiny sharp
shard of wyrdstone in it's mouth without swallowing it and turning into the spawn from planet X or dropping it.
(on top of that you generally wouldn't want skin contact with the stuff let alone putting it in your mouth right?)
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PostSubject: Re: Animals can pick up Wyrdstone?   Sun 10 Jan 2010 - 18:18

While I agree with your sentiment, Monkey Shaman. I'm kind of looking for something more than your opinion why this is. The "warrior" entry was kind of what I was thinking (animals aren't warriors).

And pressing an interpretation of a situation or rule that favors you unjustly when logic/the spirit of the rule is obviously not it is the very essence of Beardy (or "the programmer approach" as I like to call it).
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PostSubject: Re: Animals can pick up Wyrdstone?   Sun 10 Jan 2010 - 19:25

Sad when my zombies are killed by steamtanks and organguns I'd call it an unfair advantage.
jokes aside there are loads of funny and/ or insulting phrases for maximizing your warband
efficiency within the framework. (powergaming cheese etc) there's a difference between
what we (in my group) consider not holding back(maxed shaggyhided double greataxe wielding
Beastmen chieftans that consequently tries to permanently kill off enemy heroes,
this in many cases called powergaming by others as we've removed the silk gloves even in a campaign
setting where that could mean the definite end of the warband)
and the far end of silly because what you describe would in that case enable you
to use a land raider or a titan as not once is it mentioned in the rulebook that you can't.
Not to mention that it doesn't state a cost meaning it's free and
not once does it say that it can't capture objectives.
sounds more like loophole hunting.
(and if you call that programmer gaming something or other that is just insulting programmers everywhere
as thats how a five year old(whos probably beaten on a regular basis) would play it.)
on the other hand if he wants to waste the exp on a wardog you should let him. Razz

points of reasoning would be if the attackdog actually knows
its supposed to fetch the wyrdstone or perhaps that it can't fight during the rest of the game.
(thats a fun one though you could test to see what it does if it fights anyway,
1-3 the shard is lost 4-6 it swallows it and tests for mutation or instant death)

thats also a good way to resolve any unsure ruling if your group isn't into improvised house rules
either pick odds(1,3,5) or evens(2,4,6) or highs(6-4) or a lows(3-1) and let the D6 decide till the game is resolved.
or roll one each for that matter
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Snappy_Dresser
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PostSubject: Re: Animals can pick up Wyrdstone?   Sun 10 Jan 2010 - 20:31

MonkeyShaman wrote:
Sad
(and if you call that programmer gaming something or other that is just insulting programmers everywhere
as thats how a five year old(whos probably beaten on a regular basis) would play it.)
on the other hand if he wants to waste the exp on a wardog you should let him. Razz


Do me a favor. Just don't respond to any more threads I start, mmkay?
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PostSubject: Re: Animals can pick up Wyrdstone?   Mon 11 Jan 2010 - 0:57

Snappy/Monkey, we're not seeing this getting outta hand, are we? Smile

Animals are indeed 'warriors'. In the rulebook warrior is the fluffy term for "model", meant to cover all warband members. However, this should not be the reason to leave out common sense and apply rules lawyering at all costs.

From what I know this has not yet been officially ruled. The way I see it is that this was forgotten in the rulebook, an oversight, not intention. I will get back to you with an official answer soon.

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PostSubject: Re: Animals can pick up Wyrdstone?   Mon 11 Jan 2010 - 1:48

I just had this come up in my campaign tonight, and I wasn't sure what to do about it. We ended up letting it slide, as the dog "fetched" the piece of wyrdstone...

Might sound or look funny, but doesn't mean people need to get angry at each other over it. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Animals can pick up Wyrdstone?   Mon 11 Jan 2010 - 5:05

i dont think they can, i thought animals could never pick up any battlefield objectives it also doesnt make sense fluffwise (eating it is not good for hte doggy) and we usually go by what makes sense in the fluff with my gaming group.
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PostSubject: Re: Animals can pick up Wyrdstone?   Mon 11 Jan 2010 - 6:05

We've also not found anything officially "rules as written" to prevent animals from picking up wyrdstone, nor even chests and ladders. That's why we wrote our house rules to specifically exclude animals from doing so.

As stated before on this thread, yes, a warhound/giant rat/etc could pick up a piece of wyrdstone in its mouth. But then what of a warhound's attack (which I always imagine as a bite)? MonkeyShaman is right on the money here. Well, OK for warhounds. But what about horses? We've seen trained horses do pretty amazing things, and they can definitely attack with their hooves, so holding a wyrdstone in its mouth shouldn't be too much trouble while doing so. Ah, gotta remember whether bridled horses could - I don't have that much familiarity with bridled horses, so will have to leave that with someone else.

Andy Tabor made a scenario where War Boars swallowed wyrdstone and mutated (Roundup at the Mordheim Corral), and Jim Weaver did the same in a scenario with Giant Rats (The Rat Race). Especially due to this, I again agree with MonkeyShaman's interpretation - shallowing wyrdstone leads to mutation (random mutation, otherwise chaos-aligned warriors would eat the stuff for breakfast, and not even Grey Seers do that!).

All of this is why we've made it simple - animals can't pick up objects. Ruling otherwise makes things more complex, and in this, we don't find value in the additional complexity.
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PostSubject: Re: Animals can pick up Wyrdstone?   Mon 11 Jan 2010 - 6:22

I didn't even know it wasn't official...
we also rule that they can't pick up anything, nor loot, nor move up ladders (stairs is different though)

perhaps you can house rule that they may, and on every turn roll a die, on a 1 and 2 they mutate immediately, turning them into chaoshounds? - and evil! ?
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PostSubject: Re: Animals can pick up Wyrdstone?   Mon 11 Jan 2010 - 7:23

But then that would be a boon to Beastmen and Possessed...buy up a cheap warhound...boom, instant free upgrade.

I think wyldhunt has the right of it. Additional complexity in this case is to be avoided by keeping things simple and just disallowing animal pickups altogether.
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PostSubject: Re: Animals can pick up Wyrdstone?   Mon 11 Jan 2010 - 8:26

We always played that Animals cannot pick-up items, so hounds, boars, cold ones, Squigs, wolves, etc... cannot pick-up any items.
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PostSubject: Re: Animals can pick up Wyrdstone?   Mon 11 Jan 2010 - 14:12

sartori wrote:
I just had this come up in my campaign tonight, and I wasn't sure what to do about it. We ended up letting it slide, as the dog "fetched" the piece of wyrdstone...

Might sound or look funny, but doesn't mean people need to get angry at each other over it. Smile

That's what we went with n the day too (they're Witch Hunters, they need all the help they can get), but it still sticks in my craw. An official ruling would be appreciated. In the meantime, I think I'll just house rule it out.
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PostSubject: Re: Animals can pick up Wyrdstone?   Tue 12 Jan 2010 - 9:45

Animals.... especially dogs, monkeys, cats, chickens, bears, dire wolves, wolves, lizards, birds and etc can not pick up wyrdstone.

It was covered in an FAQ on the old mordheim forum but that was lost.

There are many terms in the book that are used loosely.

As noted by others it would make for an interesting HOUSE RULE.
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PostSubject: Re: Animals can pick up Wyrdstone?   Tue 12 Jan 2010 - 10:15

I forgot to mention horses, mules, war horses, boars, and or anything else mentioned under "Blazing Saddle" Rules.
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PostSubject: Re: Animals can pick up Wyrdstone?   Wed 13 Jan 2010 - 0:21

Dogs can climb ladders, fences, gates, etc, as witnessed here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnGIo1zpufE

Also, while we all like to imagine a dogs attack as a bite, it;s furst attack is most likely a dive, followed by attacking with his front paws, and only biting when going for the coup de grace even when muzzled a vicious dog can be extremly dangerous, and in this case, theoretically, it could drop the wyrdstone, bite your throat, then pick back up the wyrdstone.

After all, we're trying to apply logic to a game in which there are battle nuns, wizards, goat headed men, and rats that walk upright :-P


Last edited by Angron on Wed 13 Jan 2010 - 0:27; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Animals can pick up Wyrdstone?   Wed 13 Jan 2010 - 0:24

And here:

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/645296/dog_climbs_a_ladder/
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PostSubject: Re: Animals can pick up Wyrdstone?   Wed 13 Jan 2010 - 0:57

After some reflection (and witnessing a dog pick up a full wine bottle and trot down the street), I've decided on a slightly more nuanced house rule. Animals can handle objects (unless expressly forbidden), and maybe climb ladders if they pass a Ld check. This reflects the fact that some animals are smarter/better trained than others.

It was a slow day at work.
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PostSubject: Re: Animals can pick up Wyrdstone?   Wed 13 Jan 2010 - 1:16

Sounds fair
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PostSubject: Re: Animals can pick up Wyrdstone?   Wed 13 Jan 2010 - 5:23

For the love of Sigmar NOT every dog can climb a ladder, those are TRAINED dogs. Or in other words a skill. There are dogs that can climb fences and trees but can ever dog?? No, those are very special dogs. There is no way in the world anyone can justify that ever single dog in MOrdheim can do all these tricks. Heck, there are dogs that are trained to smell if someone has cancer but does this mean that your dog in MOrdheim can smell you and heal you? NO.
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PostSubject: Re: Animals can pick up Wyrdstone?   Wed 13 Jan 2010 - 5:39

Da Bank wrote:
For the love of Sigmar NOT every dog can climb a ladder, those are TRAINED dogs. Or in other words a skill. There are dogs that can climb fences and trees but can ever dog?? No, those are very special dogs. There is no way in the world anyone can justify that ever single dog in MOrdheim can do all these tricks. Heck, there are dogs that are trained to smell if someone has cancer but does this mean that your dog in MOrdheim can smell you and heal you? NO.

I agree. You gotta keep it simple. Then you can always ask yourself how hazardous to ones health it is to have a wyrdstone in your mouth. Like chewing a gum made from active uranium.
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PostSubject: Re: Animals can pick up Wyrdstone?   Wed 13 Jan 2010 - 11:20

Opheliate wrote:
Da Bank wrote:
For the love of Sigmar NOT every dog can climb a ladder, those are TRAINED dogs. Or in other words a skill. There are dogs that can climb fences and trees but can ever dog?? No, those are very special dogs. There is no way in the world anyone can justify that ever single dog in MOrdheim can do all these tricks. Heck, there are dogs that are trained to smell if someone has cancer but does this mean that your dog in MOrdheim can smell you and heal you? NO.

I agree. You gotta keep it simple. Then you can always ask yourself how hazardous to ones health it is to have a wyrdstone in your mouth. Like chewing a gum made from active uranium.

I'll definatly agree the wyrdstone+mouth contact=bad.

However, the arguement tthat the dogs climbing fences and gates are "special dogs" can be countered simply by stating, "if you were going to have a dog in your warbamd, wouldn't it be a "special dog"?"

or

"Not every dog in mordheim can do these tricks, just the ones in the warbands, more specifically mine."

Animals in Mordheim are penalized enough, most never gain experience, most only have 1 attack, and most cost near the price of a regular henchmen. Simply put, animals in Mordheim already aren't worth it. If further penalties occur, games of Mordheim will simply not have any animals in them at all.

And that's how it begins. When a game makes one choice so terrible as to essentially completely eliminate it, players start looking for better builds. When a player starts looking for better builds, they decide that they might as well take the best build. Then you have 10 people playing sling skaven, and another 2 playing shadow elves. And then the game of Mordheim in your venue dies, as no one is having any fun anymore.
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PostSubject: Re: Animals can pick up Wyrdstone?   Wed 13 Jan 2010 - 12:07

I would have to disagree with you. I have been playing this way for 10 years and in no way do I feel that this is a hinderance to the game.

Let someone play with to Shadow elves and watch them get taken OOA in HTH, and 10 skaven with slings then use a blunderbuss. There are enough tactics to use if people really want to.

House rule if you like but the understanding has been made clear.
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