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 [Rules] Attacks and wounds with multiple initiatives

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5thelmt
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PostSubject: [Rules] Attacks and wounds with multiple initiatives   Mon 14 Dec 2009 - 2:41

Hello all,

could you please tell me how do you play attacks from a character with 2 different initiatives because of two different weapons? For instance a hero with an ini of 3 equipped with a +1 Initiative weapon and a normal daguer. Against an ennemy with an ini of 3 too, he will strike first with the +1 Ini weapon, but what happens if he puts his ennemy to the ground with this first attack? Can he attacks with his remaining weapon and so just have to wound his ennemy to put him OOA?

Sorry for my english and thanks a lot for your answers
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PostSubject: Re: [Rules] Attacks and wounds with multiple initiatives   Mon 14 Dec 2009 - 5:11

Tough question. I don't know for sure but here are my thoughts anyway. Smile

I think that you would not need to roll to hit the enemy with the dagger and would follow the rules for attacking a knocked down / stunned warrior. The reason I think this is that if the +1 I weapon does not knock down / stun / OOA the enemy then it would be necessary to roll to see which attacks go next (the enemy or the character's dagger) as the Initiative is the same. If the enemy goes next and knocks down / stuns / OOA the character then the character cannot strike back with the dagger. If it is possible for the character to attack with the +1 I weapon but not get a chance to attack with the dagger then it would seem logical to me that the +1 I weapon and the dagger would be treated almost like two different warriors in respect to striking and therefore the dagger could simply wound to take a knocked down enemy OOA or else simply take a stunned enemy directly OOA.
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PostSubject: Re: [Rules] Attacks and wounds with multiple initiatives   Mon 14 Dec 2009 - 6:21

RationalLemming wrote:
Tough question. I don't know for sure but here are my thoughts anyway. Smile

I think that you would not need to roll to hit the enemy with the dagger and would follow the rules for attacking a knocked down / stunned warrior. The reason I think this is that if the +1 I weapon does not knock down / stun / OOA the enemy then it would be necessary to roll to see which attacks go next (the enemy or the character's dagger) as the Initiative is the same. If the enemy goes next and knocks down / stuns / OOA the character then the character cannot strike back with the dagger. If it is possible for the character to attack with the +1 I weapon but not get a chance to attack with the dagger then it would seem logical to me that the +1 I weapon and the dagger would be treated almost like two different warriors in respect to striking and therefore the dagger could simply wound to take a knocked down enemy OOA or else simply take a stunned enemy directly OOA.

My group plays it this way as well I believe.
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Meister Ostalgie
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PostSubject: Re: [Rules] Attacks and wounds with multiple initiatives   Mon 14 Dec 2009 - 7:36

RationalLemming wrote:
Tough question. I don't know for sure but here are my thoughts anyway. :)
That's the only way it makes sense to me. If you're the attacker, make sure you use the +1 Initiative weapon first, to indeed be able to kill the enemy model with nothing but a dagger.

My question: does the 6+ armour save against a dagger still work if you're ND or stunned? I guess it does, but let's see what you think about it. Armour is passive, so it should work. In that case, still, go with your +1 Initiative weapon first. Unless you will never beat the enemy's Initiative. Then it doesnt matter at all.

Remember! If you charge, you gain strike first, so you usually go first anyway. Unless .. this Orc spell, or in case the other model has strike first too, but your Initiative is lower.

Hope it answers your question ; )
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PostSubject: Re: [Rules] Attacks and wounds with multiple initiatives   Mon 14 Dec 2009 - 8:44

the way the rulebook is written you loose the i3 attack

but the rulebook is full of colloquilalisms and vague wordings

main problem: the wording of that rule is bad



best fix: models must declare where all of their close combat attacks go before rolling any dice
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Opheliate
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PostSubject: Re: [Rules] Attacks and wounds with multiple initiatives   Mon 14 Dec 2009 - 9:17

Meister Ostalgie wrote:

My question: does the 6+ armour save against a dagger still work if you're ND or stunned? I guess it does, but let's see what you think about it. Armour is passive, so it should work. In that case, still, go with your +1 Initiative weapon first. Unless you will never beat the enemy's Initiative. Then it doesnt matter at all.

The 6+ armour save is only viable when the enemy is Knocked Down. When they are stunned, you can attack them with whatever and kill them. They are unconscious and you could, to quote Bud from Kill Bill 2, "Perform the coup de grace with a rock".
So yes, if Knocked Down, the enemy gets to save. If stunned, he does not.
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PostSubject: Re: [Rules] Attacks and wounds with multiple initiatives   Mon 14 Dec 2009 - 10:08

page 37 of the CORE RULEBOOK:

ATTACKING STUNNED AND KNOCKED DOWN WARRIORS.

Note that a model with multiple attacks MAY NOT stun/knock down and then automatically take a warrior out of action during the SAME hand-to-hand combat phase. The only way to achieve this is to have MORE THAN ONE of your model attacking the same enemy...


I think the rules are PRETTY CLEAR about that.

It doesn't matter if your weapon gives you a Initiative burst, or have any other special rule.

Hope that clarifies the point.

Best wishes.
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PostSubject: Re: [Rules] Attacks and wounds with multiple initiatives   Mon 14 Dec 2009 - 10:26

Yes, as Magokiron stated above, a model may not stun an opponent and auto OOA it in the same round.

However, in the scenario above, if the first attack fails to stun the other model you could still make attacks with the slower weapons. In that case, the I4 weapon would attack first, then the two models would roll off to determine who made thier I3 attack first.
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PostSubject: Re: [Rules] Attacks and wounds with multiple initiatives   Mon 14 Dec 2009 - 11:30

magokiron wrote:
page 37 of the CORE RULEBOOK:

ATTACKING STUNNED AND KNOCKED DOWN WARRIORS.

Note that a model with multiple attacks MAY NOT stun/knock down and then automatically take a warrior out of action during the SAME hand-to-hand combat phase. The only way to achieve this is to have MORE THAN ONE of your model attacking the same enemy...


I think the rules are PRETTY CLEAR about that.

It doesn't matter if your weapon gives you a Initiative burst, or have any other special rule.

Hope that clarifies the point.

Best wishes.

Hello,

i should have been more precise, in fact this whole post IS about p37 of the rulebook, applying or not to attacks from the same character with different initiatives

As Asp said, i am not sure that this part of the rule was intended to this particular case
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5thelmt
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PostSubject: Re: [Rules] Attacks and wounds with multiple initiatives   Mon 14 Dec 2009 - 11:33

I forgot to add that the sentence "The only way to achieve this is to have MORE THAN ONE of your model attacking the same enemy..." convinced me (for the moment lol) that it is not possible. But i must add that i am surprised that the question hasn't been asked before, mainly because of sister's whip Smile
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PostSubject: Re: [Rules] Attacks and wounds with multiple initiatives   Mon 14 Dec 2009 - 14:18

It doesn't matter what initiative the models weapons attack at. The reasoning behind a single model not being able to stun and auto OOA has nothing to do with order of attacks. The statement on pg 37 is clear. It doesn't mention differing initiatives because it is immaterial. If Model A stunned Model B this turn, it is impossible for Model A to auto OOA Model B this turn. End of story. Other factors do not matter unless those factors specifically recant this rule.
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PostSubject: Re: [Rules] Attacks and wounds with multiple initiatives   Mon 14 Dec 2009 - 15:23

magokiron wrote:
page 37 of the CORE RULEBOOK:

ATTACKING STUNNED AND KNOCKED DOWN WARRIORS.

Note that a model with multiple attacks MAY NOT stun/knock down and then automatically take a warrior out of action during the SAME hand-to-hand combat phase. The only way to achieve this is to have MORE THAN ONE of your model attacking the same enemy...


I think the rules are PRETTY CLEAR about that.

It doesn't matter if your weapon gives you a Initiative burst, or have any other special rule.

Hope that clarifies the point.

Best wishes.

I stand corrected!
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Da Bank
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PostSubject: Re: [Rules] Attacks and wounds with multiple initiatives   Mon 14 Dec 2009 - 15:53

Magikron and JAfisher44 are correct.
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PostSubject: Re: [Rules] Attacks and wounds with multiple initiatives   Tue 15 Dec 2009 - 2:07

Asp wrote:
best fix: models must declare where all of their close combat attacks go before rolling any dice
Well, that's not really relevant. I mean, that's how we always play it (RB), but it could mean you attack any model after you alrdy KD of stunned it with the same model. I know you can't get it OOA, but do you can still roll To Hit and if you're lucky To Wound. It's like another attack, that was my point. Using the weapon with highest Initiative first increases your chances of getting the model KD or stunned with your first attack (in any case where your Initiative is relevant, of course).

But then the 6+ armour save that comes with (or rather, against) a dagger still stands?
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PostSubject: Re: [Rules] Attacks and wounds with multiple initiatives   Tue 15 Dec 2009 - 7:31

JAFisher44 wrote:
It doesn't matter what initiative the models weapons attack at. The reasoning behind a single model not being able to stun and auto OOA has nothing to do with order of attacks. The statement on pg 37 is clear. It doesn't mention differing initiatives because it is immaterial. If Model A stunned Model B this turn, it is impossible for Model A to auto OOA Model B this turn. End of story. Other factors do not matter unless those factors specifically recant this rule.

It may always have been obvious for you, but it was not my case

Anyway like i said the sentence "The only way to achieve this is to have MORE THAN ONE of your model attacking the same enemy..." convinced me that what the developpers wanted is that it is impossible to put OOA with several attacks, whatever the situation is

I forgot to said thanks to all of you! You're a great community always answering my strange questions
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PostSubject: Re: [Rules] Attacks and wounds with multiple initiatives   Tue 15 Dec 2009 - 11:57

A good question, that has been addressed here before.

In the example scenario you would have the awkward situation of rolling to hit an already stunned/downed warrior. It should be assumed there is more going on in the combat than trading hits, so the exact flow of combat is figurative so long as the rules are followed.

This question came up in my group as a result of the lizardman bite attack.
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PostSubject: Re: [Rules] Attacks and wounds with multiple initiatives   Tue 15 Dec 2009 - 18:37

You see, I think it's somewhat annoying it's ruled like this. Because this has definately come up before for me.

My Possessed charges a single model. Spines knocks him down. Now I can't attack with my 4 strength 5 attacks... which would in general, have a chance of causing more damage than spines (Probably about 2 wounds compared to just the 1).
Course, I don't complain when I roll those 6's for spines Wink, but it'd be frustrating if I can't well... attack! with my Possessed.
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PostSubject: Re: [Rules] Attacks and wounds with multiple initiatives   Tue 15 Dec 2009 - 21:54

someone2040 wrote:
You see, I think it's somewhat annoying it's ruled like this. Because this has definately come up before for me.

My Possessed charges a single model. Spines knocks him down. Now I can't attack with my 4 strength 5 attacks... which would in general, have a chance of causing more damage than spines (Probably about 2 wounds compared to just the 1).
Course, I don't complain when I roll those 6's for spines Wink, but it'd be frustrating if I can't well... attack! with my Possessed.

Cant you solve it by rolling for spines AND the other attacks at the same time, then make all injury rolls at the same time and pick the highest one? That would work, wont it?
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PostSubject: Re: [Rules] Attacks and wounds with multiple initiatives   Wed 16 Dec 2009 - 4:45

Yes, indeed, when you have two "sets" of attacks and the first set knocks down/stuns you opponent (the spines on possessed, regular saurus attacks,...), we just play that the second set of attacks (possessed normal attacks, saurus bite attack,...) can be carried out as if the enemy was still on his feet. These second attack(s), should they be succesfull, can then make your opponent's situation worse (ie: KD->stunned or stunned->OOA).
It would be rather ridiculous to completely lose the extra (or normal) attack(s)...
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PostSubject: Re: [Rules] Attacks and wounds with multiple initiatives   Wed 16 Dec 2009 - 5:49

Opheliate wrote:
Cant you solve it by rolling for spines AND the other attacks at the same time, then make all injury rolls at the same time and pick the highest one? That would work, wont it?
That's usually how we do it. You roll all attacks you declared on the enemy model simultaneously, using different coloured dice for different types of attacks. For example, my Ogre Henchman has a Club and a Jeweled Sword, so I roll a red D6 for my Sword, and 3 white D6 for my regular attacks (Club, in case you're wondering: my Ogre gained an extra attack, so it has three now).
You use the same D6's that caused a hit to roll to wound, so you know if the Club does a wound (increased chance on getting enemy models stunned), of my sword does.
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PostSubject: Re: [Rules] Attacks and wounds with multiple initiatives   Fri 18 Dec 2009 - 19:05

This seems reasonable to me. The rules do not say that you can't attack a KD model. Just that you cant auto OOA him.
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