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 Sisters Super Equipment (do you houserule?)

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Keylan
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PostSubject: Sisters Super Equipment (do you houserule?)   Sat 12 Dec 2009 - 14:20

Hi everyone,

I just testbuild (on the sheet) some core warbands to decide what second band to buy and paint.

As it came to those sisters of sigmar i just thougt wtf this girl should never use a common weapon as the special weapons are just superior.

Sigmarite Warhammer: 15 gold for a +1STR one hand weapon is justy a joke, no disadvantage no no just a great add vs some of the most dangerous starting warbands.

but even better

Steel Whip: great only 10 Gold for an aditional first strike attack in
first round of a combat. Like spear with bonus attack and no unwieldy
even worth double the cost maybee even tripple.

I feel like just those 2 weapons totaly imbalaces this warband, could anybody confirm this? Do u use any houserules to fix this imbalace?
I just cant find the flaw this warband has to allow such superior an cheap equipment. Only tho low range weapons?


Last edited by Keylan on Sat 12 Dec 2009 - 16:54; edited 1 time in total
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Asp
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PostSubject: Re: Sisters Super Equipment (do you houserule?)   Sat 12 Dec 2009 - 14:30

yes overpowered

sisters are the best warband in the core book, better than skaven
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PostSubject: Re: Sisters Super Equipment (do you houserule?)   Sat 12 Dec 2009 - 15:02

And steamtanks are harder than nightmares and doomwheels have a cool name so I house ruled all my nightmares into doom mares with steam turrets and warplocks instead of using my own racial superiority and force the enemies through strategy to play the game as I need to win,
or simpler put by getting to know my warband instead of moaning about everyone elses.
Also I made a Giant Dragonpire to use as my warband leader, he's immune to closecombat...and ranged attacks...and magic.

Asp: Everyone is better than skavens?
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Von Kurst
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PostSubject: Re: Sisters Super Equipment (do you houserule?)   Sat 12 Dec 2009 - 15:10

I suppose it depends on your terrain and the other warbands. In Indianapolis the Sisters are second tier unless we play with weather rules and no dwarfs... Otherwise they are too easy to defeat. They have done really well in Lustria on several occasions and for one memorable campaign they ruled in Khemri against Tomb Guardians and Undead...

They have some nice stuff, but they are human.
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PostSubject: Re: Sisters Super Equipment (do you houserule?)   Sat 12 Dec 2009 - 16:47

Von Kurst wrote:
They have some nice stuff, but they are human.
+1 to that.

It's like saying WTF with human mercenary warbands.

They can choose to have +1 Str, or a bigger leadership radius + better BS, or 100 extra GC, or...

Granted, Sigmarites have 2 pretty good equipment pieces, but the only fix we seem to need, is to rule that NOBODY can use 2 steel whips at the same time (sounds crazy anyway).

Just remember, they are human ans has pretty much the EXACT SAME stats that mercenaries.

Besides, their henchmen selection is quite narrow, and novices are of little use until they start gaining advances.

But of course, you may disagree...

Best wishes.
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PostSubject: Re: Sisters Super Equipment (do you houserule?)   Sat 12 Dec 2009 - 17:33

Thx for reply so far,

I realised sisters got normal human stats, but still feelt a huge diffrence.

+ Sisters got a prayer (spellcaster) leader

+ 3 Stronger heros and the weak one got a great bonus skill (Blessed Sight)

+ maybee the best melee weapons in the game (S-hammer / whip)

+ accsess to cheap spamm range (slings)

+ cheap 15 gold henchmen.

+ all heros can learn accademic skills (wyrdstone hunter)

- no 100gold/ LD marksmen / champion STR bonus

- no real range weapons neither bows nor blackpowder

- less specialised and powerfull henchmen.

- less flexible skill list (but mainly shoting is missing)

So one of the sisters weak spots is ranged combat, but for me long range fighting is overrated in mordheim and slings are good low range weapons and wicked cheap.

So i still fell sisters are overpowerd.

so far i at least would nerf both Sisters weapons a little

Sigmar Warhammer cost raise to 20 maybee 25 gold

Steel Whip add unwieldy (prevent 25 gold 3 attack novice)
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PostSubject: Re: Sisters Super Equipment (do you houserule?)   Sat 12 Dec 2009 - 17:36

i said CORE warbands
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RationalLemming
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PostSubject: Re: Sisters Super Equipment (do you houserule?)   Sat 12 Dec 2009 - 19:18

Asp wrote:
i said CORE warbands

I'd consider dwarfs as a core warband because they are official. What difference does it make if they are in the main rule book or the EiF supplement rule book if both are official...

Anyway, that sounds like I'm picking a fight which I'm not. I do understand what you mean in regards to referring to the warbands in the core rule book (not counting supplements). It just seemed like you are responding a bit harsh using a term that might be slightly ambiguous / irrelevant to some.
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PostSubject: Re: Sisters Super Equipment (do you houserule?)   Sun 13 Dec 2009 - 4:28

core = the core book


warbands in the core book are designed for mordheim whereas the warbands added later (even if they are "official") are more like transcripts of WHFB armies
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PostSubject: Re: Sisters Super Equipment (do you houserule?)   Sun 13 Dec 2009 - 5:10

I get what your trying to say but if you get proper roll dicewise your gonna get a real juggernaut in your possessed, or a board filler with your necro.
added to that they may start strong but can be overtaken quickly by almost anyone thanks to the others either by

A. having specialists B.The ability to buy specialists C.the ability to get specialists by character growth.

And if we dont stretch past the core rulebook they're sort of in a rut when it comes to outsourcing to hired swords.

If you think they're stronger than you then just play better
as Louis XIV put it 'If you want clean fun buy a kite'
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Keylan
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PostSubject: Re: Sisters Super Equipment (do you houserule?)   Sun 13 Dec 2009 - 5:24

MonkeyShaman wrote:
I get what your trying to say but if you get proper roll dicewise your gonna get a real juggernaut in your possessed, or a board filler with your necro.
added to that they may start strong but can be overtaken quickly by almost anyone thanks to the others either by

A. having specialists B.The ability to buy specialists C.the ability to get specialists by character growth.

And if we dont stretch past the core rulebook they're sort of in a rut when it comes to outsourcing to hired swords.

If you think they're stronger than you then just play better
as Louis XIV put it 'If you want clean fun buy a kite'

Sorry, ur still talking of Sisters?

Does anybuddy but me talking about Sisters of Sigmar in this topic?
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PostSubject: Re: Sisters Super Equipment (do you houserule?)   Sun 13 Dec 2009 - 6:45

@Keylan:

I am talking about the sisters, they might look strong on paper on their own but you can't measure it without adding fighting style, other warband stats and development.
I pulled an example of the possesed and the necro as that other example of characters able to start strong, but unlike both the necro and the sisters the possesed can get beefier in the long run.

You also have to factor in that they are 'good' aligned and if you like Asp only look to the core rulebook they are pretty lonely when it comes to outsourcing to hired swords.
This is a game ideal for campaigns and as such some balances doesn't become apparent until your immersed in campaigning.

Some aspects you mention as being beardy is easily outweighted by other warbands either in just one of their heroes, multiples of stronger henchmen
or a jucier skillset (wyrdstone hunting is limited to availability of wyrdstone i.e. mordheim) for example you can't say that being not as shooty as the next guy isn't a disadvantage as he's probably going to kill you first if your not sneakier and the sisters are a bit 'blunt object square in the face' when it comes to fighting.

you can't measure a warband on their stats and their stats alone you have to compare it to something else.
(you can't say 'dude that's a big car' without comparing it to other cars as cars in general are bigger than lemons, blenders and microwave ovens.)

hope that unmuddled my two cents a bit.
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PostSubject: Re: Sisters Super Equipment (do you houserule?)   Sun 13 Dec 2009 - 9:09

Keylan wrote:
Sigmarite Warhammer: 15 gold for a +1STR one hand weapon ...
Never understood the rationale for why a Sigmarite hammer should grant +1S. Why?

As a holy weapon, the +1 to wound against undead and possessed makes sense but, in combination, the two benefits do seem a bit of a steal for the price.
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PostSubject: Re: Sisters Super Equipment (do you houserule?)   Sun 13 Dec 2009 - 10:39

Citizen Sade wrote:
Keylan wrote:
Sigmarite Warhammer: 15 gold for a +1STR one hand weapon ...
Never understood the rationale for why a Sigmarite hammer should grant +1S. Why?

As a holy weapon, the +1 to wound against undead and possessed makes sense but, in combination, the two benefits do seem a bit of a steal for the price.

They're big hammers.

In my experience Sisters are NOT overpowered - yes, the steel whips and Sigmarite hammers are good, but look at what they're sacrificing compared to other humans. Middenheimers get +1 S for FREE, toss in a hammer for 3gc and that's a bargain compared to what Sisters get, and the +1 to wound only applies sometimes. Is +1 to wound in 1/5 combats really worth 12 gc?

The lack of long-ranged shooting and shooting skills means that against warbands that don't have their share of close combat monsters you'll often get shot up enough that you'll be taking a route test before you even reach combat. Against non-shooty warbands you'll either be fighting on your enemy's terms due to his higher movement values OR will be seriously outclassed by his fighters.

As far as prayers are concerned, most other warbands have the option of hiring multiple spell-casting hired swords. The sisters can hire ZERO. The Matriarch makes up for this.

So, don't look at their equipment as being overpowered or cheap - think of it more as their "special ability". Those two items are compensating for quite a bit they lack that other human warbands get.
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PostSubject: Re: Sisters Super Equipment (do you houserule?)   Sun 13 Dec 2009 - 11:32

Yep.

As I have said before, Sisters ARE ONLY HUMANS but without all the FREE advantages the mercenaries get.

And besides, their weapon choices are quite limited, so I'll say they aren't overpowered.

"2 SPECIAL weapons" barely are a match to other warbands starting abilities, and as CMaximus has pointed out, they can't have more than 1 spellcaster.

And in a campaign, they can be quickly surpassed by other warbands with a greater choice of warriors and equipment.

My 2 cents.
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PostSubject: Re: Sisters Super Equipment (do you houserule?)   Sun 13 Dec 2009 - 12:28

I thought the sling was the most overpowered piece of Sister equipment Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Sisters Super Equipment (do you houserule?)   Sun 13 Dec 2009 - 12:39

Yes, only human, with a spellcasting leader, a youngblood with arguably the best special rule in the game, and four heroes who can DW +1S weapons, along with all warband members being able to eventually use a +1S 1H weap along with a +1A (on first turn of HtH) 1H weapon. That's some pretty massive advantages there.

Sure, they have to pay a little to get the weapons, so they're not "free", but compared to...

1. Middenheimers have three heroes who get one free advance - whoop-te-do*. Add the Priest of Ulric, and they have spellcasting and a good pooch (Wolf Companion).
2. Reiklanders get +6" range on Captain's Ld, and 7 henchmen with +1 BS - very good.
3. Marienburgers get +100 gc head start and +1 rarity rolls - overwhelming at start, but rapidly diminishing returns without a decent income rolling in.
4. Witch Hunters have spellcasting, and one of the best HtH henchmen types, but are a schizophrenic warband (1/2 shooty heroes at least, pure HtH strong henchmen, either inept Zealots or no-XP-gaining Warhounds to round out) and smaller in size.

...Sisters have an excellent end-game available, really the best of all the human warbands due to their weapon selection. Sure they pay for it in the shooting department, but shooting is very random, whereas a solid HtH advantage is worth pure wyrdstone.

I'm not sure that Sisters are out of balance though. They really, really struggle in the beginning of the campaign, when we've seen shooting is stronger. If the other warbands and the dice gods can make them suffer, it puts them in a hole which is hard to recover from. However, if the other warbands let them slide, the Sisters get their full complement of models, and begin to get some Sigmarite Warhammers even in the hands of henchmen with S/A/WS advances, it's all over with. What other warband can have this minimum ability with every henchmen merely by spending 25gc on their equipment? S4 A1 + S3 A1 (+1A in first round of HtH) DW? Give them a Strength and Attack advance, and it just compounds.

If I was to tone Sisters down (which I haven't seen as necessary yet), I would make one simple change: Sigmarite Warhammers may only be used by their heroes.

*A little Middenheimer Captain/Champion to Matriarch/Sister Superior comparison. These Middenheimers start at S4 - give them two hammers at 6gc total and that's the best they'll ever get. Sure these Sisters start at S3, but they're just a single Strength advance away from meeting these Middenheimers. Spend 30gc on these Sisters after that Strength advance, and now they have two S5 hammers. Middenheimers also have only 3 of these models; Sisters have 4. Now let's tweak out these 3 Middenheimer and 4 Sisters heroes, assuming they got exactly the advances they wanted: we'll give the Middenheimers Strongman and 3 Attack advances, and spend 15gc on a double-hander: they get A4 at S6. Give the Sisters 1 Strength and 3 Attack advances, and spend 30gc on their Sigmarite Warhammers: they get A5 at S5. That's about the same. The advantage does not go to Middenheimers here.
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PostSubject: Re: Sisters Super Equipment (do you houserule?)   Sun 13 Dec 2009 - 14:07

Good to get feedback of some people about Sisters,

Thats why i started this thread, to get some opinions to qualify my feeling about them.

Maybe i just start undeads and capture one of those sisters to learn weapon training and dualwiled steelwhip and S-hammer with my Vampire^^
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PostSubject: Re: Sisters Super Equipment (do you houserule?)   Sun 13 Dec 2009 - 15:08

haha but you only have 11% chance of capturing
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PostSubject: Re: Sisters Super Equipment (do you houserule?)   Sun 13 Dec 2009 - 15:28

Asp wrote:
haha but you only have 11% chance of capturing

This was just a joke, i would never allow a undead ur chaos model do wield a Sigmarit-Warhammer its prohibited by fluff
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PostSubject: Re: Sisters Super Equipment (do you houserule?)   Sun 13 Dec 2009 - 23:27

I actually wrote an article on two handed weapons expansions, where I also added a two-handed version of the Sigmarite Warhammer for the Sisters Smile

http://sites.google.com/site/denofdamnation/articles/twohandedexpansion
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