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 The Unstoppable Charge

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Opheliate
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PostSubject: The Unstoppable Charge   Wed 9 Dec 2009 - 23:10

A question on interpreting the skill Unstoppable charge (+1 Ws when charging).
I have noticed that other skills that come into effect when charging (Expert Swordsman for example) has stated in them that the effecct lasts only for the first turn of combat. The Unstoppable Charge skill does NOT say that the effects are limited, but simply states you get +1 Ws when charging.

Does that mean the model has +1 Ws against that opponent the whole combat???
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PostSubject: Re: The Unstoppable Charge   Wed 9 Dec 2009 - 23:16

I would just say this was an overlook. According to the name, I would say first round only, which makes it a kinda crappy skill if you ask me! >_<
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PostSubject: Re: The Unstoppable Charge   Thu 10 Dec 2009 - 2:03

yeah, but concider this:
A normal charge move makes you strike first, ass your character gains momentum.
The unstoppable charge maintains that momentum and the ferociousness with which you attack is kept up as momentum is. That way, I could see a logic behind having +1 ws the whole combat. Also, as you said, if not, it is quite a crappy skill.
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PostSubject: Re: The Unstoppable Charge   Thu 10 Dec 2009 - 18:35

Ive never seen anyone take this skill. An additional +1 ws is just not that impressive when you need double+1 your opponent's WS in order to make them hit you on a 5+.

If it were +1 the whole combat it might be worth it, or +1 to hit the first round it would be exceptional. Sadly i think the intent was just for it to work in the first round only.
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someone2040
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PostSubject: Re: The Unstoppable Charge   Thu 10 Dec 2009 - 18:47

I would certainly consider it on my Possessed who hasn't got a single weaponskill upgrade so far. Weaponskill 5 is a step up from 4 since Henchmen generally get to 4 in no time. But yeah, not if it was only the first round of combat which this seems to imply.
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Opheliate
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PostSubject: Re: The Unstoppable Charge   Thu 10 Dec 2009 - 22:52

Hm, I see your point, and agree, it seems taht way. It is just strange that other skills state that it is just for the first turn, and doesnt so in this skill description. Maybe a TypeO?
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Meister Ostalgie
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PostSubject: Re: The Unstoppable Charge   Sat 12 Dec 2009 - 8:29

+1 Ws when charging means it only works when charging. So that's when you charge and deal your attacks, and when you receive counter-attacks in your turn's close combat-phase. After that, the other player's turn begins, and the charge is over; it becomes a 'standard' close-combat fight, in which neither model is charging.

Not very useful this Skill.
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Opheliate
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PostSubject: Re: The Unstoppable Charge   Sat 12 Dec 2009 - 9:08

Meister Ostalgie wrote:
+1 Ws when charging means it only works when charging. So that's when you charge and deal your attacks, and when you receive counter-attacks in your turn's close combat-phase. After that, the other player's turn begins, and the charge is over; it becomes a 'standard' close-combat fight, in which neither model is charging.

Not very useful this Skill.

I must say you are right. *sigh* can sthis skill be tweaked in a semi-official way? Maybe change it form +1 Ws to +1 to all To Hit rolls???
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PostSubject: Re: The Unstoppable Charge   Sat 12 Dec 2009 - 10:09

Opheliate wrote:
I must say you are right. *sigh* can sthis skill be tweaked in a semi-official way? Maybe change it form +1 Ws to +1 to all To Hit rolls???
Yeah.

+1 WS for 1 turn (and ONLY when charging) seems like crap.

+1 TO HIT the first round seems like a much more useful skill, and I think this should be suggested to DA BANK, in the relevant thread about Mordheim clarifications.

Best wishes.
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Asp
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PostSubject: Re: The Unstoppable Charge   Sat 12 Dec 2009 - 14:12

severely underpowered skill

suggested fix:

+1 to hit when charging and cannot be intercepted
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PostSubject: Re: The Unstoppable Charge   Sun 13 Dec 2009 - 0:10

Yeah, agreed. If hes unstoppable, he shouldnt be able to be intercepted either, good suggestion.
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PostSubject: Re: The Unstoppable Charge   Sun 13 Dec 2009 - 0:12

+1
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PostSubject: Re: The Unstoppable Charge   Mon 14 Dec 2009 - 7:40

The 'immune to interceptions' idea is just great. It basically does what the name of the Skill says! How obvious!

If you decide to alter the Skill in this way, I would keep it to +1 WS when charging though. Otherwise it'll get overpowered.

General note: some Skills seem rather useless. On the other, you will mostly pick them last, or use them in combination with one specific weapon making it a useful skill again. So, from my point of view, one shouldn't try to make every item, object or skill in the game be super nice. If you really can't find any use for the skill, pick it last. Or not at all. You can't go level up forever.
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Asp
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PostSubject: Re: The Unstoppable Charge   Mon 14 Dec 2009 - 8:42

+1 to hit is nothing compared to a 5+ ward save (step aside)
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PostSubject: Re: The Unstoppable Charge   Mon 14 Dec 2009 - 9:24

Meister Ostalgie wrote:

If you decide to alter the Skill in this way, I would keep it to +1 WS when charging though. Otherwise it'll get overpowered.

General note: some Skills seem rather useless. On the other, you will mostly pick them last, or use them in combination with one specific weapon making it a useful skill again. So, from my point of view, one shouldn't try to make every item, object or skill in the game be super nice. If you really can't find any use for the skill, pick it last. Or not at all. You can't go level up forever.

IMO, it would not overpower the skill. This is why:
1 - Being intercepted isn't something that often happens, and if it does, it often mounts down to bad strategic moves (or, indeed, good ones!)
2 - +1 Ws for onw round often makes NO difference at all, as the only results you can have "to hit" are 3+ to 5+. You get 3+ to hit if your opponent has lower Ws than you. You get 5+ to hit if your opponent has MORE than double your Ws.

That means that if a Ws 4 hero with Unstoppable charge, charging a warrior with Ws 3, the attacking hero gets 5 Ws the first turn. What happens then? Well, nothing. Still 3+ to hit for you, and 4+ for the enemy.

Your Hero must face a Ws 2 enemy to have the enemy need 5+ to hit. And still, it is only for the first turn of combat...

To have situations like that when a skill does absolutely nothing, and also only does "absolutely nothing" for the first turn of combat, it is seriously bad. IMO, i think the writers made a typeo, and meant for it to be +1 To Hit, not +1 Ws.
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PostSubject: Re: The Unstoppable Charge   Tue 15 Dec 2009 - 2:01

The +1WS would be an extra. Main reason to take the skill is the newly invented characteristic of 'Immune to Interceptions', as suggested by its name.

Seriously, I think it can be rather helpful. Example: Imagine me, Ostlanders (about 14 models atm), playing against Possessed (4 Heroes only, early campaign)... if The Possessed is positioned in such a way it can intercept most charges (on my Ogres behalve, of maybe my two BBs), I can never really charge any of the Mutants (weak compared to my Ogre). Now if my Ogre had unstoppable charge, I can just move into base-contact with both Mutants (if possible, as a charge) and perhaps even take both OOA before the Possessed warband can move again.
If I don't have the skill, The Possessed might intercept, killing more than likely my Ogre before it can even do anything (well.. it charges, so it can deal its 3 attacks before the Possessed strikes back. Butthen the Possessed has 4S5 attacks now, 1S6... no fun!).

Just a thought. I am not really experienced, but this is a situation I imagine happening more often.
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PostSubject: Re: The Unstoppable Charge   Tue 15 Dec 2009 - 2:52

Yeah, but not so often that it makes sense of the skill. Also, a good stretgy makes it obsolete, as you can use your warband members to simply maneouver in a way that makes interceptions less common. Also, if you know that the possessed can (and probably will) intercept you, you just dont charge, and maneouver in a different way.

At least that is how I would play it.
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PostSubject: Re: The Unstoppable Charge   Tue 15 Dec 2009 - 5:40

I like +1 to hit and Cannot be intercept thing, and I don't thing it makes it overpowered, compared for example with Mighty blow, which gives +1 S and works every turn of CC.

But it seems you have forgotten the dwarf special skill Berserkr, that gives +1 to hit in first round of CC. The Unstoppable charge adjustment now makes it useless..
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PostSubject: Re: The Unstoppable Charge   Tue 15 Dec 2009 - 7:51

hm... a problem then. Maybe if they can be added together??? +2 to hit when charging if you have both skills Razz
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PostSubject: Re: The Unstoppable Charge   Wed 16 Dec 2009 - 0:30

Opheliate wrote:
hm... a problem then. Maybe if they can be added together??? +2 to hit when charging if you have both skills Razz
yeah and +3 when you use diving charge
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PostSubject: Re: The Unstoppable Charge   Wed 16 Dec 2009 - 3:48

Lol. Jeah ... it seems all things in the game have some sort of reason, even if it's a vague one. I didn't even know about that Dwarf Skill. It's better to change things if you know the game thoroughly, so you don't mess up something because you don't know about a certain rule.

But that's where this forum comes in handy!
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PostSubject: Re: The Unstoppable Charge   Wed 16 Dec 2009 - 8:22

could this have anything to do with the Albion barbarians special skill?

Attack Howl
: Barbarians always use war howls when
fighting each other. This Barbarian is a real master, capable of imitating
the howls of wild beasts. If a warrior with this skill charges, he receives
a bonus of +2 instead of the normal +1 for charging.

http://www.mordheimer.com/warbands/experimental/albion_barbarian.htm

im going to be using this warband soon, but i don't have a clue what this skill is!
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PostSubject: Re: The Unstoppable Charge   Wed 16 Dec 2009 - 10:35

Looks like they forgot what charging does in Mordheim and mistook it for the Necromunda combat system.
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PostSubject: Re: The Unstoppable Charge   Wed 16 Dec 2009 - 11:18

Hmm, Asp that is a great idea to include immunity to interceptions in the skill. I will run this by my group and see if we include it in our house rules.
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PostSubject: Re: The Unstoppable Charge   Thu 17 Dec 2009 - 16:31

Woah!!!
Humongous idea there Asp, seriously!
So simple, so good!

Maybe it's just that here we're all weirdos, but in our games interception is always an important if not crucial factor.
I explain myself, not that interception in itself happens a lot, but that's because we simply tend to refuse to charge when we see a possible interceptor in the way, thus possibly getting our warriors in troublesome situations (like next turn I got counter charged by what I was going to charge myself, maybe even just to stop it where it was...).
Interception and counter charging affects a lot our tactical movement, particularly if you consider that strength lies in numbers, so you're gonna see that "panzer" formation a lot (many models advancing close to each other, and that's mean when coupled by some good moving-shooting [slings anyone?]).

From my perspective (and particularly considering I often play besties, so CC is my daily and only bread *sigh*) being able to avoid interception alone would be just great!!!

So I'd take "unstoppable charge" even if it was just "immune to interception", even without any kind of hitting bonus.

Cheers!!!

P.S.: This idea Asp is some of the stuff that makes house ruling good, congrats man!
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PostSubject: Re: The Unstoppable Charge   Today at 4:34

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