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 Ostlanders. Hero OOA - what happens to the Dogs?

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Thorwald
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PostSubject: Ostlanders. Hero OOA - what happens to the Dogs?   Sun 6 Dec 2009 - 10:24

Hello again,

Our gaming-group is reviewing the Animal Friendship rule, (see also this topic), and we came across another issue. The issue at hand being, what happens to the dogs, when the hero that bought them is took out of action?

the rules state:

Quote :
Wardog (RB 38); 25+2D6 gc; Availability: Rare 10
Not available to Skaven.
--*flufcut*-- If you purchase a Wardog, it will fight
exactly like a member of your warband, though it is treated as part of
the equipment of the Hero who bought it. You will need a model to
represent it on a battlefield. Wardogs never gain experience, and if
they are put out of action they have exactly the same chance of
recovering as Henchmen (i.e., 1-2: Dead; 3-6: Alive). Wardogs count
towards the maximum number of warriors allowed in your warband.

Mordheim rulebook.
Quote :
Out of Action
A warrior who is out of action is also out of the game. Remove the model from the tabletop. It's impossible to tell at this point wheter the warrior is alive or dead, but for game purposes it makes no difference at this stage.

So you have to treat them as equipment right? when the hero dies, they disappear, that's clear. But what happens if the hero is put out of action? do the dogs just evaporate? or scatter toward the nearest table edge...or, as someone who is playing the Ostlanders claims.. they do not disappear, they stay.

In my opinion the dogs leave, because the hero with the Animal friendship skill is out of action. the rules state clearly that the dogs have to be treated as equipment. I.E a holy relic loses its leadership advantage when a hero is OOA, same rule, same treatment right?

But our ostlander guy states that the dogs only disperse when the hero is Killed-Killed. So when the Hero is put OOA the dogs stay and become members of the warband.

What are your thoughts on this matter?
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PostSubject: Re: Ostlanders. Hero OOA - what happens to the Dogs?   Sun 6 Dec 2009 - 20:25

the issue is - the dog should be a henchman group on its own, and roll as a henchman

that will solve all your problems

there is no reason why such wardogs should be treated as hero equipment
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PostSubject: Re: Ostlanders. Hero OOA - what happens to the Dogs?   Mon 7 Dec 2009 - 1:42

Asp wrote:

there is no reason why such wardogs should be treated as hero equipment


Yea, except for this...

Quote :
If you purchase a Wardog, it will fight exactly like a member of your warband, though it is treated as part of the equipment of the Hero who bought it.
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PostSubject: Re: Ostlanders. Hero OOA - what happens to the Dogs?   Mon 7 Dec 2009 - 3:58

Quote :
the issue is - the dog should be a henchman group on its own, and roll as a henchman

that will solve all your problems

there is no reason why such wardogs should be treated as hero equipment
mrbretonnia wrote:
Asp wrote:

there is no reason why such wardogs should be treated as hero equipment


Yea, except for this...

Quote :
If you purchase a Wardog, it will fight exactly like a member of your warband, though it is treated as part of the equipment of the Hero who bought it.


Next to that, it's part of the deal with the Animal Friendship rule.


  • Quote :
    Animal Friendship: Having grown up amidst the animals of the
    forest this warrior exudes a certain charm to all ‘normal’ animals (i.e.
    warhorses, Warhounds, etc.). Animals will never attack him and up to two
    Wardogs (see Mordheim book, page 54) that the warrior owns do not count
    against the maximum number of models in the Warband.
So it's not a henchmengroup, it's equipment thus treated as equipment.
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PostSubject: Re: Ostlanders. Hero OOA - what happens to the Dogs?   Mon 7 Dec 2009 - 8:39

Quote :
Out of Action
A warrior who is out of action is also out of the game. Remove the model from the tabletop. It's impossible to tell at this point whether the warrior is alive or dead, but for game purposes it makes no difference at this stage.

Where in that paragraph does it say that you remove the hero's equipment from the tabletop?
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PostSubject: Re: Ostlanders. Hero OOA - what happens to the Dogs?   Mon 7 Dec 2009 - 8:47

CygnusMaximus wrote:
Quote :
Out of Action
A warrior who is out of action is also out of the game. Remove the model from the tabletop. It's impossible to tell at this point whether the warrior is alive or dead, but for game purposes it makes no difference at this stage.

Where in that paragraph does it say that you remove the hero's equipment from the tabletop?

have you tried separating the body of your miniature from the equipment he is wearing? Wink But you are right, it doesn't really state that you remove the equipment from the tabletop, but you can't use a sword when the hero is out of action right? A holy relic will lose it's power when the hero that's carrying it is OOA right? You haven't really addressed the issue at hand, what happens to the dogs.. they are treated like equipment of the Hero..
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PostSubject: Re: Ostlanders. Hero OOA - what happens to the Dogs?   Mon 7 Dec 2009 - 13:03

The dog is considered equipment but we have never played taking the dog off the tabletop if that hero was taken OOA. The reason, we never thought about it.

Let the poor dog play the game out.
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PostSubject: Re: Ostlanders. Hero OOA - what happens to the Dogs?   Mon 7 Dec 2009 - 15:37

Once again that guy playing Oslanders. What an ass he is!

Anyways, the reason for me saying a Wardog doesn't leave the 4x4 feet when the Hero who bought it goes OOA is the following.

Rulebook wrote:
Wardog
If you purchase a Wardog, it will fight exactly like a member of your warband, though it is treated as part of the equipment of the Hero who bought it. You will need a model to represent it on a battlefield. Wardogs never gain experience, and if they are put out of action they have exactly the same chance of recovering as Henchmen (i.e., 1-2: Dead; 3-6: Alive). Wardogs count towards the maximum number of warriors allowed in your warband. You could also use the profile above to represent one of the more exotic animals used by the warbands of Mordheim, such as trained bears, Chaos familiars or even fighting monkeys from the far-off Southlands!
Describing it in different words, that would be: "(...) it is treated as part of the equipment of the Hero who bought it, with the exception that it fights like a Henchman."

When the Wardog is involved in a battle, it fights like a Henchman, but in all other cases it counts as equipment. So it does not count for your Warband rating, nor does it count when selling wyrdstone. And if the Hero who bought it dies post-battle, it dies with him (more likely: it runs off...). But during the battle the Wardog is a Henchman. So it moves on its on, it can make attacks and recieve counter-attacks, following all the standard Henchmen-rules*. So it only goes OOA if ... it goes OOA. Like a Henchman.

The extra that the Ostlander Skill 'Animal Friendship' gives is merely that where normally...
Rulebook wrote:
Wardogs count towards the maximum number of warriors allowed in your warband.
...now they don't.

Maybe some who don't play any of the Mercenary-Warbands, since you can't equip Wardogs, don't like this, but it's clearly stated in the rules. It's quite a nice unit, but since it gathers no XP, it will become redundant halfway the campaign. Its Profile is not that good:

ProfileMWSBSSTWIALd
Wardog640431415


* All the rules, including those for hiding / detecting / charging / et cetera, also including the rule regarding the maximum number of models in your Warband.
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PostSubject: Re: Ostlanders. Hero OOA - what happens to the Dogs?   Mon 7 Dec 2009 - 16:58

I think Meister Ostalgie explained it perfectly. I have never had to interpret the wardog rules b/c no one i know has ever purchased one, but if anyone does i know now how to treat it.
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PostSubject: Re: Ostlanders. Hero OOA - what happens to the Dogs?   Tue 8 Dec 2009 - 2:56

I recently heard that Da Bank has been appointed by GW as one of the official Answer Mods on the Specialist Games Forums, so I do take value his opinion a bit more than that of most others.
Why argue against an official?
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PostSubject: Re: Ostlanders. Hero OOA - what happens to the Dogs?   Tue 8 Dec 2009 - 4:00

Well you and your group are always allowed to house rule stuff if you feel the need ... Da Bank isn't going to come around your house and break your fingers for not following the official rules ....








.... I hope ....
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PostSubject: Re: Ostlanders. Hero OOA - what happens to the Dogs?   Tue 8 Dec 2009 - 4:25

Mortimer wrote:
Well you and your group are always allowed to house rule stuff if you feel the need ... Da Bank isn't going to come around your house and break your fingers for not following the official rules ....

.... I hope ....

Yeah discussions over at our house tend to get pretty long (playing with 9 people), so if he's up for it, please break some fingers.
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PostSubject: Re: Ostlanders. Hero OOA - what happens to the Dogs?   Wed 9 Dec 2009 - 3:58

LoL... I want to keep my fingers!

Anyways, by now we decided any Wardog stays in the game if the Hero who bought it goes OOA. Here's our update house-rule description:

Wardog (or Animals with the Wardog Profile); 25+2D6 gc; Availability: Rare 10
Not available to Skaven.
If you purchase a Wardog, it will fight exactly like a member of your warband, though it is treated as part of the equipment of the Hero who bought it. This means it does not count for the number of members in your Warband when searching for and selling Wyrdstone, nor does it affect the number of models OOA before a Rout Test has to be taken. On the other hand, Wardogs do count towards the maximum number of warriors allowed in your warband.

You will need a model to represent it on a battlefield. Wardogs never gain experience, and if they are put out of action they have exactly the same chance of recovering as Henchmen. If the Hero who bought the Wardog goes OOA, the Wardog itself remains on the battle-field. If the Hero who bought the Wardog dies post-battle, the Wardogs run off. Since any Wardog is considered to be equipment in all instances apart from those during the battle, it leaves the Warband with the Hero who bought it.

You could also use the profile below to represent one of the more exotic animals used by the warbands of Mordheim, such as trained bears, Chaos familiars or even fighting monkeys from the far-off Southlands!

ProfileMWSBSSTWIALd
Wardog640431415

Animal Friendship (Ostlanders Special Skill): Having grown up amidst the animals of the forest this warrior exudes a certain charm to all ‘normal’ animals (full list of Animals
here). These 'normal' Animals will never attack him and up to two Wardogs (or Animals with the Wardog Profile, including Chaos familiars) that the warrior owns do not count against the maximum number of models in the Warband. If any Hero with this Skill decides to attack an Animal that would based on the Skill not attack him, it will now. A normal HtH situation results, and the AF Skill no longer works on the Animal-model considered here.


At this point I am still not sure about Chaos familiars based on the Wardog Profile. Are these 'normal', are they not? See the topic I refer to above.
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PostSubject: Re: Ostlanders. Hero OOA - what happens to the Dogs?   Wed 9 Dec 2009 - 4:10

Quote :
including Chaos familiars
that isn't even discussed!? so don't put it in there.
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PostSubject: Re: Ostlanders. Hero OOA - what happens to the Dogs?   Wed 9 Dec 2009 - 4:15

Its part of the original description dude! I didn't add anything apart from what we've discussed.
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PostSubject: Re: Ostlanders. Hero OOA - what happens to the Dogs?   Wed 9 Dec 2009 - 17:20

I like the extension to the wording of Warhounds bought as equipment. As I just stated in the other thread, I would suggest that warhound-equivalents purchased as equipment only be allowed to be "normal" animals to avoid some confusion/arguments.

I also like the extension to the wording of the Animal Friendship skill. If I'm interpreting your wording correctly, if my Onkel Jed (Ostlander Elder) with Animal Friendship attacks a Mule, from then on all Mules are immune to his Animal Friendship effect. This matches what happens (in reverse) with At The Mouth Of Madness's Insanity Table result of "What a Cute and Fluffy Little Thing" (from Town Cryer Cool, which is great.

I'm definitely incorporating your extensions into our rules set.
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PostSubject: Re: Ostlanders. Hero OOA - what happens to the Dogs?   Sat 12 Dec 2009 - 7:30

Actually we stated the AF skill just doesn't work on the mule you attacked, in that battle only. See, we don't play with mounted models anyway, so keep in mind it would always be a Wardogs you attack - thereby ending the effect of the skill. But if that would result in all Wardogs being immune to AF, that would be ridicoulus.

Oh man, I wish we would play with more extensive set of incomprehendable rules and animals ; )

And by the way: our group (not me!) decided that Wardog-equivalents are either normal or abnormal based on their alliance to good or evil. In other words: Humies always have normal animals, all other warband have not. Kinda lame for the guy playing Ostlanders, using AF, in a campaign where he is basically the only one with normal animals. I feel all Wardog-equivalents are always normal. Still can't see why this would be different.

"But hey, otherwise the skill would be overpowered..." ; )
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PostSubject: Re: Ostlanders. Hero OOA - what happens to the Dogs?   Sat 12 Dec 2009 - 21:15

The immunity from normal animals charging has always seemed to be a sideline of Animal Friendship anyway - possibly useful, but not why I want the skill. The real benefit to me has been 2 extra models for the warband - understand that Ostlanders are the only warband which can potentially field 29 models! (Well, unless someone is paying practically all their income for a small private army of Hired Swords...) 29 models = 15 warband models + 1 from Halfling Cookbook + 12 warhounds via Animal Friendship + 1 Ogre Bodyguard Hired Sword.

Not that I've been able to achieve this in the campaigns we've played. There has always been something more basic to get so I haven't even bought one extra warhound so far (neither have I bought double-barrelled Hochland Rifles yet). But I'm going to try my damndest this time! I want to see how my pack o' dawgs would work (or not)!
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